Tipping is American, but ships are not American?

[jackdiamond]

As an addendum to my earlier post, please be advised that approximately 90% of the mainstream lines (excluding luxury) presently have auto or pre-paid tipping requirements. We support this system, since it is fair to the staff and convenient to the cruiser.

[FinelyCruising]

Celebrity will apparently soon discontinue midnight buffets.

 

 

That happened way back when....:o

[FinelyCruising]

 

Its this kind of idea, that the crew is such a low form of human existince that their wages are so meager that makes it so easy to target them as specks of insignifigance.

 

Many who come to these boards have lived the life of a similar staff person. It has been a very fruitful time for those individuals and they enjoyed great success in achiveing their personal goals performing their responsibilites, and I don't belieive they feel like they were looked down upon. I think they enjoyed the ride while they were on it and it took them exactly where they wanted to go.

 

On a different path, I have come to understand why we Americans are loooked down upon in our culture where we offer tips/gratuties to workers and why we are looked down upon in our attitudes.

 

This is part of the fact that we have no idea what so ever what we are doing with our money when we behave in a way that flaunts it. I will give an example of what I posted on another thread recently to illustrate....

 

The idea was how much do you tip the person who delivers your cabin tray...some said $2.00 to $5.00. And that has been talked up here as a "norm" for a good long time, I think it can be agreed that some scoff unless the $5.00 mark is maintained.

 

So...Now, we have the DR staff for the waiter and the asst waiter combined at $5.75 per day, and with all those two do all day long, day and night, back and forth, here and there, waiting on us hand and foot, asking us what we want, bending over backward getting us what we want, we are willing to pay a food runner who does nothing more than knock on our door, spent a split second with us and only ask us where we want the tray a fine amount of $5.00.

 

If you think that we ought to be viewed as a sane bunch and in control of our money, or even our understanding of money when we give our money away, or we give it away because we believe it is big of us to give it away to meager earnings people...well...I guess we have it coming from those who think we are complete jerks about what we do.

 

We have been accused of misunderstanding wages with charity and never quite got the message because we felt so insulted at those accusations. And I happen to think that others might have known us better than we know ourselves.

 

Most of us can easily spot and identify those who perform for show, those who are generous to a fault, and those who can't see the forest for the trees. That clairvoyance is not limited to being an American and I am humbled by those who have pointed out some flaws in our thinking, because I personally am starting to get it.

[terrierjohn]

 

Its this kind of idea, that the crew is such a low form of human existince that their wages are so meager that makes it so easy to target them as specks of insignifigance.

 

Many who come to these boards have lived the life of a similar staff person. It has been a very fruitful time for those individuals and they enjoyed great success in achiveing their personal goals performing their responsibilites, and I don't belieive they feel like they were looked down upon. I think they enjoyed the ride while they were on it and it took them exactly where they wanted to go.

 

On a different path, I have come to understand why we Americans are loooked down upon in our culture where we offer tips/gratuties to workers and why we are looked down upon in our attitudes.

 

This is part of the fact that we have no idea what so ever what we are doing with our money when we behave in a way that flaunts it. I will give an example of what I posted on another thread recently to illustrate....

 

The idea was how much do you tip the person who delivers your cabin tray...some said $2.00 to $5.00. And that has been talked up here as a "norm" for a good long time, I think it can be agreed that some scoff unless the $5.00 mark is maintained.

 

So...Now, we have the DR staff for the waiter and the asst waiter combined at $5.75 per day, and with all those two do all day long, day and night, back and forth, here and there, waiting on us hand and foot, asking us what we want, bending over backward getting us what we want, we are willing to pay a food runner who does nothing more than knock on our door, spent a split second with us and only ask us where we want the tray a fine amount of $5.00.

 

If you think that we ought to be viewed as a sane bunch and in control of our money, or even our understanding of money when we give our money away, or we give it away because we believe it is big of us to give it away to meager earnings people...well...I guess we have it coming from those who think we are complete jerks about what we do.

 

We have been accused of misunderstanding wages with charity and never quite got the message because we felt so insulted at those accusations. And I happen to think that others might have known us better than we know ourselves.

 

Most of us can easily spot and identify those who perform for show, those who are generous to a fault, and those who can't see the forest for the trees. That clairvoyance is not limited to being an American and I am humbled by those who have pointed out some flaws in our thinking, because I personally am starting to get it.

This post explains my own UK feelings about tipping far better than I ever could.

In my view tipping should be a personal gesture and as discreet as possible and, outside of cruising where gratuities are an essential part of service staff wages, it should be based on the quality of service rendered and, although this will likely be contentious, equated to the customers financial circumstances.

I hope everyone will carefully read and understand FinelyCruising's message.

[woodofpine]

 

Its this kind of idea, that the crew is such a low form of human existince that their wages are so meager that makes it so easy to target them as specks of insignifigance.

 

Many who come to these boards have lived the life of a similar staff person. It has been a very fruitful time for those individuals and they enjoyed great success in achiveing their personal goals performing their responsibilites, and I don't belieive they feel like they were looked down upon. I think they enjoyed the ride while they were on it and it took them exactly where they wanted to go.

 

On a different path, I have come to understand why we Americans are loooked down upon in our culture where we offer tips/gratuties to workers and why we are looked down upon in our attitudes.

 

This is part of the fact that we have no idea what so ever what we are doing with our money when we behave in a way that flaunts it. I will give an example of what I posted on another thread recently to illustrate....

 

The idea was how much do you tip the person who delivers your cabin tray...some said $2.00 to $5.00. And that has been talked up here as a "norm" for a good long time, I think it can be agreed that some scoff unless the $5.00 mark is maintained.

 

So...Now, we have the DR staff for the waiter and the asst waiter combined at $5.75 per day, and with all those two do all day long, day and night, back and forth, here and there, waiting on us hand and foot, asking us what we want, bending over backward getting us what we want, we are willing to pay a food runner who does nothing more than knock on our door, spent a split second with us and only ask us where we want the tray a fine amount of $5.00.

 

If you think that we ought to be viewed as a sane bunch and in control of our money, or even our understanding of money when we give our money away, or we give it away because we believe it is big of us to give it away to meager earnings people...well...I guess we have it coming from those who think we are complete jerks about what we do.

 

We have been accused of misunderstanding wages with charity and never quite got the message because we felt so insulted at those accusations. And I happen to think that others might have known us better than we know ourselves.

 

Most of us can easily spot and identify those who perform for show, those who are generous to a fault, and those who can't see the forest for the trees. That clairvoyance is not limited to being an American and I am humbled by those who have pointed out some flaws in our thinking, because I personally am starting to get it.

 

 

 

Cut to the chase...

 

Are you saying that when booking a vacation where ones' service compensation expectation is laid out in advance, and hard working people rely on it, it's OK to avoid fulfilling that expectation or obligation because...

 

of our 'feelings'?

 

(About the world, the 'system', my culture, your culture, a spot in the tableware...)

 

I'm glad Terrierjohn understands what you're 'saying'...

 

When I'm in Yorkshire I'll drive on the left side of the road because that's what the folks that own and maintain it expect. When I'm on a cruise ship I'll compensate the crew as recommended because that what the folks that own the ship and maintain it expect.

 

That's not 'flounting it' or insecurity, it's operating within boundaries...

[wvufan]

I didn't understand FC's post like that at all, Woodofpine.

 

My take is that FC pointed out that the service staff are our equals and deserve to be treated with respect and dignity. I think FC suggested that some folks stiff the staff or resent paying them because they perceive them to be lesser beings and that their welfare is not significant, and FC is chastizing them for that attitude.

 

Well, my opinion is that they are humans like the rest of us. They have dreams and hopes and spouses and kids and homes and all that stuff. They are away from their loved ones and homeland for extended periods, working horrible hours and enduring spartan living conditions to provide for themselves and their families.

 

Shame on anyone who would begrudge the service staff a few bucks a day.

 

I appplaud the entire service staff and have always tipped at least the recommended amount. We will use the prepay system and supplement as we feel warranted.

 

Happy Sails to You

 

OOOEEE :D:D Bob and Phyl

[Can'tstopcruising]

Cut to the chase...

 

Are you saying that when booking a vacation where ones' service compensation expectation is laid out in advance, and hard working people rely on it, it's OK to avoid fulfilling that expectation or obligation because...

 

of our 'feelings'?

 

(About the world, the 'system', my culture, your culture, a spot in the tableware...)

 

I'm glad Terrierjohn understands what you're 'saying'...

 

When I'm in Yorkshire I'll drive on the left side of the road because that's what the folks that own and maintain it expect. When I'm on a cruise ship I'll compensate the crew as recommended because that what the folks that own the ship and maintain it expect.

 

That's not 'flounting it' or insecurity, it's operating within boundaries...

 

I don't think FinelyCruising was referring to the pax who gives the required amount (more or less) discreetly. I think the "flaunting" referred to the pax who overtips (and probably overdoes everything else) with a big show. On the otherhand, these pax compensate for the ones that don't tip.

 

I don't understand the Buddy/Buddy relationship that some like to have with the crew. I don't think it is proper for the crew to mention the word "tip" to a pax. We do not have to know their life stories. Who knows how much is true. And don't forget that they are earning tax-free dollars. That goes a long way. The reason they take the ship jobs is because it affords them a healthy sum of money to send home.

[The_Big_M]

It's not tax free, unless their resident country permits it to be. Many countries tax off-shore earnings as well.

 

I don't understand which crew are flaunting their tip receipts and commenting on them. I've observed them to be discreet, and only raise the matter if it comes up in polite conversation. If some passengers are friendly to the crew (a la "buddy buddy") that isn't a bad thing. You're seeing the same people regularly, you don't have to treat them as if you only see them in your life once and have no regard for them.

[jackdiamond]

Woodofpine-I have no problem understanding your presentation; and, I agree with your comments.

[Bridge Maven]

Since the subject came up I would like to comment on it - I think it is horrible when crew members discuss tips from one passenger with another passenger, no matter how friendly they are. If a waiter did that to me I would think that he was trying to gain my sympathy so that I would leave a larger tip than I normally would to compensate.

[FinelyCruising]

Cut to the chase...

 

Are you saying that when booking a vacation where ones' service compensation expectation is laid out in advance, and hard working people rely on it, it's OK to avoid fulfilling that expectation or obligation because...

 

of our 'feelings'?

 

(About the world, the 'system', my culture, your culture, a spot in the tableware...)

 

I'm glad Terrierjohn understands what you're 'saying'...

 

When I'm in Yorkshire I'll drive on the left side of the road because that's what the folks that own and maintain it expect. When I'm on a cruise ship I'll compensate the crew as recommended because that what the folks that own the ship and maintain it expect.

 

That's not 'flounting it' or insecurity, it's operating within boundaries...

 

You miss entirely.

 

I gave a clear example of how "mindless" tipping has become, that is is no thought to it, that there is no rhyme or reason to it.

 

The cruise line issues a guideline so that those who otherwise do not know can get the clear infomation they need to fulfil that aspect of responsibility.

 

With that out of the way, I dove into a completly different area, since this thread is about Americans and Ships and Tipping, and covered a variety of points that I think pinpoint some flaws in what we do.

 

Going back to the example of the cabin service food runner and the waiter, and lets just stick with the two of them, the Waiter guideline is $3.65 per day per person.

 

Drilling down, we know that the waiter goes all day and all night long, I have no concern for puposes of this discussion where he is from, how many children he as, or how long he has been away form his family. All moot for this exercise. He goes to the enth degree for who he is responsible for, manges special requests and we have very high expectations of this person.

 

On the other hand, there are those who a farily vocal and beleive that the cabin runner should get $5.00 for delivering a tray of coffee and danish.

 

Now I am evaluating this scenario, since we have the conflict about tipping whom and what for, and the allmighty who is deserving, I have to tell you that those from countires who are accustomed to this kind of staff being compensated in an alternate method, when I stop and look at this, how does anyone suggest that there is any rhyme or reason to how we tip?

 

The waiter if all goes well for him is at $7.30 for lets call it a 14 hour shift serving us individually and everyone else at buffet, and some have the idea that unless you offer to the cabin person who in comparision has not done too much of anything $5.00 for each event, that you are cheap.

 

Now going back to those who are not accustomed to the gratuity method that is on place on the ships, we seem to be able to present that we have no ability to evaluate since we can't even begin to understand why we would think it would be OK to must do $5.00 for that one when other worker is only getting $7.30 for all that they do. That's mindless tipping at its best, one thing we do that is in no relation to the other thing that we do.

 

Taking it a step further, we have a segment that says they are poor, they have nothing just throw your money at them. To that we can now speak to those who suggest that we don't know the difference between gratuities and charity. Gratutitues are what we convey based on the guidelines, tips are for the above and beyond, and charity is for the poor.

 

We really do not have a clear idea of what we do or even why we do it. People have figured that out and we keep arguing right to their point, the workers are hard workers, the workers are poor. I am a big spender and I am going to compensate for those who don't convey much of anything. And to boot, the person who conveys the guideline amount is doing what is right and in many instances the person who conveys what is set out in the guidelines is viewed as borderline cheap because its not more than the guidelines.

 

So in conclusion, the people from around read what we write, know that it is different than their way of doing things and of thinking things through and even though we have had this internal discussion with ourselves about how much we are going to tip, it seems that much of the time, we have not thought about mindless decsions and what we are really doing with our money even though we can have giant discussions here about it as though we do.

 

The $5.00 and $7.30 scenario makes that clear to me.

[kelmac]

Bottom Line:

 

--Passengers pay the salaries of the Service Personnel through their "Tips" (unfortunate use of this word).

 

--When cruising, each passenger is expected to pay the minimum amount (recommended tipping amount/or auto-tip amount). Since the service on cruise ships is usually "over the top" superior to what we are use to, many of us tip above the recommended amounts.

 

--Through out the past, many passengers have not met this obligation; they must condone the practice of slave labor? For this reason, auto-tips and prepaid gratuities have been established to protect the workforce.

 

--Passenger exit surveys concerning service levels are powerful tools. If you have a problem with service this instrument will usually do the trick. Withholding gratuities is not acceptable.

 

--This system is not American, British, European -- it's an international maritime system that has and is evolving.

 

--If you are too cheap, or naive to play by the rules, perhaps this form of travel is not for you.

 

Enjoy!

Kel

[Bridge Maven]

When you are in a lounge on a ship, do you feel obligated to buy a drink because if you don't you are taking up a seat that is a potential source of tips for the crew that work there?

[Karynanne]

Bottom Line:

 

--Passengers pay the salaries of the Service Personnel through their "Tips" (unfortunate use of this word).

 

--When cruising, each passenger is expected to pay the minimum amount (recommended tipping amount/or auto-tip amount). Since the service on cruise ships is usually "over the top" superior to what we are use to, many of us tip above the recommended amounts.

 

--Through out the past, many passengers have not met this obligation; they must condone the practice of slave labor? For this reason, auto-tips and prepaid gratuities have been established to protect the workforce.

 

--Passenger exit surveys concerning service levels are powerful tools. If you have a problem with service this instrument will usually do the trick. Withholding gratuities is not acceptable.

 

--This system is not American, British, European -- it's an international maritime system that has and is evolving.

 

--If you are too cheap, or naive to play by the rules, perhaps this form of travel is not for you.

 

Enjoy!

Kel

 

Well said.

[woodofpine]

OK - Apologies first...

 

This topic usually gets me surly (I'll have to consider why that is...) So, as is said in Yorkshire... F' me!:D I didn't really 'get' FC's epistle. But Terrier and others did so (little) f' me!;)

 

Sure Americans are a loud imperfect lot. Coming from a tourist zone myself though, we're less noisey than Germans and less 'frugal' than most - including our neighbors to the North. (Hey - I'm not tellin' any secrets here...)

 

As a country we're made up of other countries' rejects and those that were too 'flight risk' neurotic to stay home! (OK truth's out) But one thing we've been pretty darned good at is hard working individualism and hard justice!

 

Perhaps that's why I have strong empathy for these 'flight risk' seas sailing individualists holed up in a steel can working for 6-10 months. It's also why I get incensed that people quite deliberately set out to stiff them - because they can... It's also why I get incensed when people use all sorts of national patriotic 'code speak' to justify that conduct and beat around the truth... They stiff them because they can. I don't like it that the truely virtuous character of these Non-USA countries gets run down and abused in such self-serving manner.

 

Example: Displaying ie. 'flounting' tips is objectionable, but a silent system 'on account' is... objectionable

 

OK - first time cruisers, you get a pass. But after that, everyone knows 'the deal'. If you don't like it or can't bring yourself to conform to it. Take a hike. And I acknowledge that crew do pretty darned well in a good week (better than many pax); that doesn't mean I can go into 'code' and beat 'the deal'. They have crappy weeks too.

 

I'm one of those 'buddy buddy' types, but probably because I get a 6 person table to my family so it loosens up more than if I were amongst others. I'm a geography freak so I like to know where they're from, and their history at sea. That's it. If they want to tell me more, I'm interested; if they don't, that's fine too. Very little about these ships is "American" (the wage system isn't) and I'm not looking to convert anybody to my way of life. But at the end of the conversation, I know the system and I know they're not working for the pleasure of my conversation; and not your's either.

 

*GO Kelmac

[Bridge Maven]

When you are in a lounge on a ship, do you feel obligated to buy a drink because if you don't you are taking up a seat that is a potential source of tips for the crew that work there?

 

BTW - I asked this question because my husband and I feel this way. Even if we don't want a drink at the time, we will never sit in a ship's lounge without ordering one for the reason noted in my previous post quoted above.

[FinelyCruising]

--Through out the past, many passengers have not met this obligation; they must condone the practice of slave labor? For this reason, auto-tips and prepaid gratuities have been established to protect the workforce.

 

Kel

 

It has not worked, it does not work, and it does not protect the guests.

[woodofpine]

It has not worked, it does not work, and it does not protect the guests.

 

Well FC the management of the world's largest cruise lines pretty much universally disagree (but what would THEY know?) and 'protect the guests'... From What??:rolleyes:

[FinelyCruising]

Well FC the management of the world's largest cruise lines pretty much universally disagree (but what would THEY know?) and 'protect the guests'... From What??:rolleyes:

 

From those that don't tip. Tell me Wood, why did I *have* to pay my irrevocable gratuities, all the line items, all of them like the Other Personnel and the DR Staff that few ever include and pretend they do in order to get accepted for Select Dining.

 

Go ahead, give me all the reasons why I am not protected and am being forced to pay and everyone else in the majority, i.e. two dining rooms full of guests are left to simply consider the obligation.

[Bridge Maven]

Do you think tips for infants who eat nothing but milk from their mother's breast should be included in automated tips? I am not referring to older children who utilize the services of the wait staff and sleep in a bed that needs to be made by the cabin steward.

[woodofpine]

From those that don't tip. Tell me Wood, why did I *have* to pay my irrevocable gratuities, all the line items, all of them like the Other Personnel and the DR Staff that few ever include and pretend they do in order to get accepted for Select Dining.

 

Go ahead, give me all the reasons why I am not protected and am being forced to pay and everyone else in the majority, i.e. two dining rooms full of guests are left to simply consider the obligation.

 

Didn't you voluntarily choose 'Select Dining' as an elective option?

[FinelyCruising]

Didn't you voluntarily choose 'Select Dining' as an elective option?

 

Gimme a break. :cool:

[yearbook]

I can never understand why people who are happy to plunk down $4000 for a cruise whine about tipping. This is what is done on a ship. Go on the ship and tip. Or don't go on the ship. Period.

[bobbyleduck]

Once again. For each and every one of you who feels compelled to tell someone else what to do regarding cruising or not cruising. DON'T!

[tuggers]

Dontcha just LOVE how the tipping questions always get so many riled up?:)

As for me, a person who very seldom follows rules, I will continue to tip. Either at the suggested amount or perhaps more. Because I feel it is the right thing to do. I will not discuss how much I tip or expect anyone else to.

This position makes me a very happy cruiser!:D