Why isn't Grandeur in Norfolk, VA?

[H8mundays]

I will let you know. I just sent Half Moone Cruise center a e-mail asking all my questions and stated that if they didn't have the answers or did not respond to my e-mail I am writing to my congress man to find out the answers. I'm just curious because this topic has been brought up before here on CC and we would all like to know why our tax dollars went to build a cruise terminal that hardly has any sailings.

 

Maybe you should send a copy of your email to Mayor Fraim.

[tiyana4]

You know, I may just do that. I will report any findings should I hear back from him/his office.

[sjcruiser]

I'm two hours from Bayonne and Balitmore, but I would travel the five hours to Norfolk also. A couple days in Virigina Beach or Williamsburg would make for a great pre or post cruise vacation. I can taste the seafood at Captain Georges now.

[tiyana4]

I'm two hours from Bayonne and Balitmore, but I would travel the five hours to Norfolk also. A couple days in Virigina Beach or Williamsburg would make for a great pre or post cruise vacation. I can taste the seafood at Captain Georges now.

 

 

Mmmmm, me too! This is where we are eating Thanksgiving dinner. :D

[cruise47]

The image of Waterside in Norfolk, VA needs to change to accommodate families on a cruise ship. There are too many bars @ Waterside.

[KroozFoolz]

http://hamptonroads.com/2008/03/royal-caribbean-reduces-sailings-norfolk-2009-season

 

Royal Caribbean had 13 sailings from Norfolk in 2008, only seven in 2009.

When the 2009 schedule was announced, Diana Block, Royal Caribbean's vice president of revenue management and deployment, stated that it was because Norfolk did not attract enough families with children (and so not enough money coming in). So, as disappointing as it is to learn there will be no cruises from Norfolk for RC past 2010, it is not a huge surprise. I feel if the profitability was there, the cruise ships would be there.

 

We made the 700 mile drive to Baltimore (driving to Norfolk would be about the same distance for us) to go on Grandeur of the Seas to Canada and New England this past August. We would have much rather driven to Norfolk as we have family in the area we could have stayed with pre-cruise and avoided hotel and parking costs (in fact, we drove down there post cruise for the rest of the weekend before the 700 mile drive back home). I don't see us driving to Baltimore or Norfolk to do a cruise to Bahamas or Caribbean (we drive to Florida for that), but I would love to do the Canada/NE itinerary again or to go to Bermuda. Would love for that to be from Norfolk, but Baltimore might have to do.

[beddibi]

The image of Waterside in Norfolk, VA needs to change to accommodate families on a cruise ship. There are too many bars @ Waterside.

 

A ton of bars? We have only 3 bars at waterside, Jillians, Bar Norfolk (closed) & Have a nice day cafe. I really dont consider 3 bars "too many". Waterside is beautiful and very historical. A ton of money has been put into Waterside, very clean and a great family environment. As far as families there is the childrens museum a 5 min ferry ride away, The battle ship Wisconsin right next door to the cruise terminal that have childrens activities and you can tour it, The Spirit of Norfolk (family dinner cruise) just to name a few. Baltimore has alot more than just 3 bars so IMHO I do not agree with your statement.

[tiyana4]

The image of Waterside in Norfolk, VA needs to change to accommodate families on a cruise ship. There are too many bars @ Waterside.

 

There's a lot of bars on Granby Street, too. However, there's also a lot of upscale restaurants and high-end shopping as well, and they all generate revenue to pay city taxes. Until cruiselines commit more cruise business to Half Moone Cruise Center, I can't see the City spending any additional money on tourist-related projects; particularly with the onset of Light Rail. Was I seeing correctly last night when I saw the tracks inlaid on the street by valet parking at MacArthur Mall?

 

Bars aren't necessarily a bad thing, as many tourists are looking for a local experience (think Margaritaville) when they visit. I haven't been in Waterside Mall in years (MacArthur wins hands down) and with places like The Bistro (Todd's) right across the street, Trilogy around the corner and O'Malley's one block over, they are more visible and much better options for a good drink.

 

I'm willing to bet that most of the cruises that leave from or stop in Norfolk generally arrive in the Spring and Fall when most school-age children are in school. Waterside may not be the hotspot it used to be, but were it not for the current tenants (many restaurants also), I doubt it would still be open at all.

[beddibi]

Just wondering if you heard anything back from Half Moone. Keep us posted.

 

No to date they have not responded to my e-mail. I've even been checking my spam to make sure I dont miss one from them. I honestly dont think they will respond therefore I have forwarded my e-mail to mayor Fraim.

We also have Va. Beach (20 min drive) that alot of families come here to visit.

[tiyana4]

I like to have all of my ducks in a row when I go to the City, so I did a little digging. I found an old thread of cruisers curious as to why Princess does not sail from Norfolk. There are a lot of people in support of this idea. I will see what else I can dig up.

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=543724

[joand452]

I'm two hours from Bayonne and Balitmore, but I would travel the five hours to Norfolk also. A couple days in Virigina Beach or Williamsburg would make for a great pre or post cruise vacation. I can taste the seafood at Captain Georges now.

 

We were just at Captain George's a few weeks ago. Still great crab legs!

 

If RCI weren't so expensive for a 5-day cruise to Bermuda, we would have done that one already. We're an hour away from Baltimore and about 3 from Norfolk. Just not ready to try Carnival or NCL yet, so here we go again to Florida!

[tiyana4]

We were just at Captain George's a few weeks ago. Still great crab legs!

 

If RCI weren't so expensive for a 5-day cruise to Bermuda, we would have done that one already. We're an hour away from Baltimore and about 3 from Norfolk. Just not ready to try Carnival or NCL yet, so here we go again to Florida!

 

Gotta love Captain George's! :p

 

We're in the same boat. We are looking for a Bermuda cruise in 2011 and RCL's price for a 5-nt cruise is $1300 pp for a cat. D2. This is the same price as a 7-day from other ports. Not to mention the fact that it is only in Bermuda for roughly 30 hours. There is no way we are paying that much for a 5-nighter. It would definitely be nice to have more variety.

[MJonTravel]

My guess is that Baltimore is located smack in the middle of one of the most populous areas of the country, and within easy driving distance to far more people than Norfolk.

 

Norfolk is a great port, but I expect that in the end, this comes down to money, and the folks at RCL that count the money have reason to believe they make more sailing from Baltimore.

[Terpnut]

My guess is that Baltimore is located smack in the middle of one of the most populous areas of the country, and within easy driving distance to far more people than Norfolk.

 

Norfolk is a great port, but I expect that in the end, this comes down to money, and the folks at RCL that count the money have reason to believe they make more sailing from Baltimore.

There is no need to "guess" because it is a truth. Not only is the Baltimore/Washington metro area much more populous, but it is also much more affluent.

 

Based on median household income, the Washington DC/Baltimore metro area is the nation's second most affluent with 7,608,070 people with a median household income of $57,291. Per capita income is fourth at $28,856.

 

The Norfolk/Va Beach metro area is ranked 84th with 1,569,541 people and a median household income of $42,448. Per capita income is ranked 107th with $20,328.

 

So not only does the Washington DC/Baltimore area have almost 5 times the number of people over Norfolk, but those same people have almost 42% more money to spend. And these statistics are based on a 2000 Census that doesn't even reflect the reality of a likely wider gap today.

 

And this crude analysis doesn't even factor in Philadelphia and many other suburban Pennsylvania, Delaware and Maryland communities that are all within less than a 90 minute drive of Baltimore. Besides maybe people from Richmond, who can easily drive to Norfolk?

 

Thus, if you want to put a cruise ship near customers who have the discretionary funds to partake in it on a regular basis, where would you put it?

[bay guy]

The argument that not enough families book out of Norfolk and that's therefore one of the reasons for RCI not to have cruises departing from there doesn't make any sense. The majority of the RCI cruises from Norfolk the last few years have taken place while local schools were still in session.

We were on the Grandeur cruise from Norfolk this year when school was out for the summer and there were plenty of families on board.

[noslow100]

I really think this is a combination of things. My wife was told when we booked our Bermuda cruise last year that the reason the prices do not drop for the Norfolk to Bermuda sailings is that Bermuda and Norfolk charge high port charges. So financially it would make sense for them to take the cruises to Baltimore instead of Norfolk. I really enjoy the fact that we have a RCI ship in our own backyard. However, the time of year they bring it here for the Bermuda cruises in my opinion is too early. I would love to do the cruise to the Caribbean out of Norfolk but I have small kids and cant get away that long. No, I am not going to bring them because I want to relax and enjoy myself. As far as the Half Moon in Norfolk is concerned. I was very pleased and surprised at the service and the speed of the process from curb to ship and ship to curb. As far as emailing anybody involved in any form of Government with Norfolk, I feel you are wasting your time. You are talking about a city gov. that invited Bar Norfolk to be a part of Waterside then shut them down because they wanted to change the atmosphere. The city gov. doesn't know their elbow from their a$$. They want economic growth yet they want to tax anything that moves. I have always asked myself why a cruise terminal has not been constructed down at the Virginia Beach oceanfront? That would be more attractive than Downtown Norfolk.

[GrannyMouse]

If RCCL moves out of Norfolk after 2010 what does that leave us with? Just a few cruises from Carnival?

 

If RCCL wants more families cruising from Norfolk maybe they should look at the pricing for 3rd and 4th passengers and also consider offering cruises when school is out.

 

I certainly hope that Norfolk officials are out courting other lines trying to utilize our Port. It would be a shame for it to sit idle.

[Terpnut]

The argument that not enough families book out of Norfolk and that's therefore one of the reasons for RCI not to have cruises departing from there doesn't make any sense. The majority of the RCI cruises from Norfolk the last few years have taken place while local schools were still in session.

We were on the Grandeur cruise from Norfolk this year when school was out for the summer and there were plenty of families on board.

Who has argued that there are not enough families booking out of Norfolk? It's clear that there are just not enough customers of any type out of Norfolk to sustain ships on a regular basis. I'm not trying to be difficult or a naysayer, but the Norfolk market has spoken and it's only able to support Carnival Glory for a few sailings a year and that's it.

 

Outside of Florida, the cruise lines will clearly always put most of their ships close to the major markets like Seattle, San Diego, Galveston/Houston, Boston, New York and Washington/Baltimore. Norfolk, like Charleston, will always be considered a second tier market and are lucky to have any cruise ships stop there at all.

 

Another consideration is whether the port is a good pre and post-cruise location. Unfortunately, Norfolk won't attract alot of out-of-towners for that reason either.

[Terpnut]

... I have always asked myself why a cruise terminal has not been constructed down at the Virginia Beach oceanfront? That would be more attractive than Downtown Norfolk.

I haven't been to Virginia Beach recently but since when did they have a deep water port facility suitable for a cruise ship to dock?

[BND]

I used to live in VA Beach and they don't have the facility to support a cruiseport. VA Beach is on the Atlantic Ocean and is all beach front.

 

I'm not sure why people don't believe this is a purely bottom line business decision and IS because Norfolk cannot support as many cruises as Baltimore, NJ, FL and NY. And, putting a port in VA Beach wouldn't be any different than Norfolk in terms of attracting more cruisers. Those who have posted in support of Norfolk are thinking purely emotionally and what THEY want. Problem is there aren't enough of them to make it work.

[bay guy]

Virginia Beach isn't a port city. Not sure why some posters here think it is since, as someone else said, the city is on the Atlantic Ocean along with the first few miles of the Chesapeake Bay.

 

The main port is in Norfolk, as is the Norfolk Naval Base, and the cruise terminal is located along the Elizabeth River which front the main down town area of Norfolk.

 

I know someone who is the manager of the local AAA travel bureau and I asked him this year how the cruise bookings were from Norfolk. He said that, in spite of some higher pricing, most of the cruises from Norfolk are almost all sold out. That's one reason the prices stay higher because they know they'll sell the berths versus having to reduce prices to fill berths like the cruise lines do in other ports.

 

Also, I'm not quite sure about the accuracy of the Norfolk port charges being higher than Baltimore. Considering that the city and state have been VERY aggressive in the past few years to reduce port charges so more cargo and container ships come to Norfolk, I'd find it hard to believe that, if a cruise line agreed to bring a ship here for several cruises each year, the city wouldn't cut them a nice deal. That's why Norfolk has been successful in having some major shipping lines leave Baltimore and other east coast ports and set up major operations here. The Norfolk based longshoremens' unions also tend to be easier to deal with than those based in the Northeast. I also can't imagine that the pilot fees to and from Baltimore are cheap.

 

Anyhow, I'm sure that if the cruise lines want to burn 20 hours of fuel traveling up and down the Chesapeake Bay to Baltimore, they have their reasons which many of us aren't privy to. I know that, as a passenger, I'd rather spend time on the open ocean or in a Caribbean port than an extra day traversing the Chesapeake Bay.

 

I'm sure the location closer to the major northeast population centers is most likely the main reason to base the ship out of Baltimore.

[Terpnut]

Virginia Beach isn't a port city. Not sure why some posters here think it is since, as someone else said, the city is on the Atlantic Ocean along with the first few miles of the Chesapeake Bay.

 

The main port is in Norfolk, as is the Norfolk Naval Base, and the cruise terminal is located along the Elizabeth River which front the main down town area of Norfolk.

 

I know someone who is the manager of the local AAA travel bureau and I asked him this year how the cruise bookings were from Norfolk. He said that, in spite of some higher pricing, most of the cruises from Norfolk are almost all sold out. That's one reason the prices stay higher because they know they'll sell the berths versus having to reduce prices to fill berths like the cruise lines do in other ports.

 

Also, I'm not quite sure about the accuracy of the Norfolk port charges being higher than Baltimore. Considering that the city and state have been VERY aggressive in the past few years to reduce port charges so more cargo and container ships come to Norfolk, I'd find it hard to believe that, if a cruise line agreed to bring a ship here for several cruises each year, the city wouldn't cut them a nice deal. That's why Norfolk has been successful in having some major shipping lines leave Baltimore and other east coast ports and set up major operations here. The Norfolk based longshoremens' unions also tend to be easier to deal with than those based in the Northeast. I also can't imagine that the pilot fees to and from Baltimore are cheap.

 

Anyhow, I'm sure that if the cruise lines want to burn 20 hours of fuel traveling up and down the Chesapeake Bay to Baltimore, they have their reasons which many of us aren't privy to. I know that, as a passenger, I'd rather spend time on the open ocean or in a Caribbean port than an extra day traversing the Chesapeake Bay.

 

I'm sure the location closer to the major northeast population centers is most likely the main reason to base the ship out of Baltimore.

The only reason that matters to this issue is answered in your last sentence. Norfolk's larger/better, lower port charges, fuels savings due to being closer to the ocean, better unions, etc. are all largely irrelevant factors if you just can't supply the customers.

 

As for your travel agent anecdote, you need to remember that all cruise ships everywhere are ALWAYS sold out. What we are not privy to is pricing and discounting that is needed to fill them. If Norfolk sailings were truly packed with people all paying full retail and thus were very profitable to the cruise line, then there would be more sailings, not less. The bottom-line reality is if Norfolk sailings were more profitable than Baltimore's, then you will see more Norfolk offerings and fewer in Baltimore. The fact that the trend is going the other way tells a simple truth: Baltimore is more profitable than Norfolk.

[tiyana4]

No to date they have not responded to my e-mail. I've even been checking my spam to make sure I dont miss one from them. I honestly dont think they will respond therefore I have forwarded my e-mail to mayor Fraim.

 

We also have Va. Beach (20 min drive) that alot of families come here to visit.

 

When you get a chance, email me....I want to run something by you. The address is tiyana4 at msn dot com.

[temple1]

I think there's a couple of reasons. One is that Baltimore is right on the northeast corridor train route and another is that they probably sell better out of Baltimore. The overall population is higher closer to Baltimore and the economics (employment rate, income level and disposable income are higher in the northeast than in the Norfolk area). Norfolk is off the beaten path so to speak and Baltimore is right on the I-95 corridor. There are a LOT more people within a two hour drive to Baltimore than there are to Norfolk. This is purely a business decision. While there may be lots to do around Norfolk (I used to live in VA Beach and grew up in the DC area) there is a lot more to do in the DC/Baltimore corridor. You can spend a day or two in DC and drive 45 minutes to the port of Baltimore (or take the train).

 

I think both areas have much to offer and will draw from much the same populations - VA, NC, MD, DC, PA, WV, etc. Virginia however has some distinct advantages - Virginia Beach, Eastern Shore (I know MD has part of it also), Williamsburg, Charlottesville, Richmond, and a days drive to the DC area. Located within an hour or two is Busch Gardens, Kings Dominion, various water parks and a couple of other theme parks. Plus in Norfolk you are so much closer to the ocean and like others pointed out - no bridges.

[concour]

We would love to have more ships sail out of Norfolk but contrary to popular belief it is very hard to sell out a ship leaving from Norfolk. Holland America has tried to base a ship out of there, Celebrity came and went and now Royal Caribbean. Our TA said a few years ago that Norfolk does not work well for the cruise lines and wondered how long RCL would last. All our cruises out of Norfolk we got great price drops in the last month before sailing. Once it was almost a 40% drop. With a limited number going out this year and next they should sell those OK.

 

If RCL could make it work financially I am sure we would see more ships in Norfolk but obviously they are making more money out of Baltimore than they could from Norfolk.