Letter from Carnival Victory Captain confirming shooting death of passenger

[Savoia]

Anyone can sue anyone for anything. The courts will decide if there is merit. The case may be dismissed or won or lost or settled. Often companies will settle out of court to avoid publicity even when they feel they are not at fault.

 

It's a shame about that little girl.

 

BINGO!

 

Finally..somebody who doesn't think Carnival sails on air.

 

I suspect strongly Carnival senses litagation coming their way and what they've done so far is to possibly fend that off. CCL is not a generous company in these instances and they're in all likelyhood bracing themselves for what could be a PR nightmare.

 

At the end of the day they don't want a murdered passenger lawsuit as headlines in newspapers...doesn't sell cruises.

[steelerfan27]

BINGO!

 

Finally..somebody who doesn't think Carnival sails on air.

 

 

This is true. I prefer the boat to sail on the ocean. :)

[nrdsb4]

BINGO!

 

Finally..somebody who doesn't think Carnival sails on air.

 

I suspect strongly Carnival senses litagation coming their way and what they've done so far is to possibly fend that off. CCL is not a generous company in these instances and they're in all likelyhood bracing themselves for what could be a PR nightmare.

 

At the end of the day they don't want a murdered passenger lawsuit as headlines in newspapers...doesn't sell cruises.

 

 

Savoia, you have yet to state your case on this. How is Carnival Cruise corporation going to prevent YOU, the wise Savoia, from walking off the ship and hailing a taxi that has zero connection to the cruise line? Are they going to imprison you on the ship unless you take a company that has a deal with the cruise line? Or are you supposing that Carnival can tell the government of St. Thomas that only taxis approved by Carnival corporation can wait at the port for passengers exiting cruise ships?

You sound like someone who has never cruised and has zero comprehension of how things work at ports. The taxis and excursion companies wait outside the secure area. At that point they have access to any passenger from any cruise line which calls at that port. The cruise lines have no control over this, only the local governments do. Many of them have already been contacted by passengers who found them on the internet and have already booked and prepaid their excursions. Please tell me how you believe Carnival or any cruise line has the power or even the right to prevent this.

 

Additionally, you better believe that if I did my own research on an excursion and booked it myself to save money rather than take the overpriced Carnival excursions and anyone from that cruise line tried to prevent me from doing my own thing on my own time that they would definitely have a problem with me.

[alwayshappytocruise]

Entertaining, though, isn't it?

 

It's pathetic considering the subject of this thread is a 14 year old girl who was killed while on vacation.

[Fairhope]

It's pathetic considering the subject of this thread is a 14 year old girl who was killed while on vacation.

 

I agree. And the energy wasted on responding to this dopey poster is sad.

[Kurbanfan]

:eek:

[alwayshappytocruise]

I agree. And the energy wasted on responding to this dopey poster is sad.

 

So true.....on the other hand it's NEVER a waste of my energy to respond to you!!!!!.......:p;):D

[cuted126]

It's pathetic considering the subject of this thread is a 14 year old girl who was killed while on vacation.

 

 

I agree. Plain pathetic:(

[Chief Cruiser]

Yes, Savoia, lawyers do serve a purpose in holding business and corporations accountable.....when there is liability involved. But, plaintiff attorneys aren't the only ones involved. They have to fight a defense attorney on the other side so there is a system of checks and balances going on. Nevertheless, you have yet to describe a relationship that can tie Carnival to the independent operator. People can and often do sue for anything and everything. And there is a cure for that and judges also serve a purpose by holding lawyers accountable for filing frivolous lawsuits. They toss them out at summary judgement.

 

Just because Carnival pays for the funeral and reimburses the cost of the cruise (which I have heard they did) does not establish liability. Is it a gesture to thwart any arrows that may come their way and help protect their business face? Absolutely! It's called PR (AKA damage control) and is good business management. I would expect collateral damage control from any legal and PR team worth their salt.

 

Again, I don't want to sound cold. This was a very tragic incident that really amounts to being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but the reality is this is not world shattering news (to the family...certainly). I suspect that very few people outside cruisers or readers of this or other similar boards even know about this incident. If and when any lawsuits are filed, time will have passed and the impact will be greatly lessened. Sure, Carnival may give them something to make this go away, not because of any liability, but good business management, marketing, and PR dictates it.

 

There's not a single one of us who doesn't live in a place where some type of violence has not taken place. Do we pull up stakes and move? We all travel the same highways, streets, etc. through cities and towns where people die everyday for a multiplicity of reasons. Does that stop us? No... and neither will vacationers, both cruisers and those who fly in for stay vacations, stop going to St. Thomas because of this incident. I'll give you an example.

 

Just a very few short weeks ago, there was a fierce firefight in Jamacia between the government and a US sought drug kingpin. If I recall correctly, something like 15 or so people was slaughtered and several others wounded there during the week long spree of violence. Did cruisers quit going to Jamaica? Did cruiselines quit berthing there? Did airlines quit taking honeymooners, vacationers, and business people to Jamacia? No!..None of that happened and this story made national news on every local and cablenews station. Even at that, it's old news now and nothing else has been said about it. It's back to business as usual. RC is even building a new cruiseport in Falmouth, if they haven't already finished it!

 

While the young girl's death was untimely and totally unnecessary and my heart goes out to the family, it is not going to stop ships from visiting St.Thomas or independent shore excursion operators from marketing and making themselves available to those passengers who desire to get off the ship and exercise their right to explore this port of call without Carnival's blessing.

 

There will be no big fat checks written here because there is no liability. End of story.

[viaggi_per_mare]

Wrong place at the wrong time applies here. We have worked in a maximum security prison for decades and get hazardous duty pay due to the dangers where we work. Family and friends constantly told us that we were in grave danger whenever we went to work. Two of those people worked in a "safe environment" in the World Trade Center....needless to say, despite everything we would like to think we do to keep ourselves safe..tragedy happens, and "wrong place at the wrong time" usually applies....as in this case.

 

...the blame lies solely with the person who pulled the trigger

[steelerfan27]

Wrong place at the wrong time applies here. We have worked in a maximum security prison for decades and get hazardous duty pay due to the dangers where we work. Family and friends constantly told us that we were in grave danger whenever we went to work. Two of those people worked in a "safe environment" in the World Trade Center....needless to say, despite everything we would like to think we do to keep ourselves safe..tragedy happens, and "wrong place at the wrong time" usually applies....as in this case.

 

...the blame lies solely with the person who pulled the trigger

 

I agree.

[LynneL]

....Just because Carnival pays for the funeral and reimburses the cost of the cruise (which I have heard they did) does not establish liability.... There will be no big fat checks written here because there is no liability. End of story.

 

Actually, I'm pretty surprised if Carnival has paid for the funeral. Refunding the cost of the cruise was a smart PR move, though both were a compassionate thing to do. Certainly unlike Carnival and not legally required I'm sure. I'm glad that something was done for this family. It was a horrible story.

 

Bottom line is this family sailed on Carnival but once on shore they went off on their own excursion even though Carnival advises against it (of course that has to do with Carnival wanting the $$). Not faulting the family - I do the same thing, always booking with private tours. I've taken a private tour to Coki Beach 3 times already. I'm not sure anyone could have know there would be a crossfire between gangs when that tour was going by. The cruise line is not the babysitter having to watch out for thousands of passengers doing their own thing.

 

What I would hope is that the government gets a handle on this gang activity. My son and his girlfriend are heading there on a Carnival cruise this Thursday. I've been told there are police at the beaches (told my son to head to Megan's Bay & not Coki), but tragedy can happen when you are in the wrong place at the wrong time. Police can't cover every square inch of the island.

[nrdsb4]

I don't remember the name of the poster, but the resident of St. Thomas stated that the police were well aware that there might be trouble at this funeral. Had there been a strong police presence there, the excursion might not have encountered this powder keg of a situation, or perhaps traffic could have been deviated around it, or all excursions temporarily delayed by the authorities until the funeral procession had completed its journery, etc. If, if, if...

 

Still, the bad guys here are not policemen, taxi drivers and cruise ship lines. The bad guys are gang members who think they have a right to terrorize their communities and shoot people whenever they get angry.

[nothomeonacruise]

Wow, let's put out a notice about Miami. It's very high in crime. Years ago tourists were targeted by the rental car signs on their cars. You don't see that type of advertising any longer. I'm sure Carnival would be responsible for people visiting places in Miami, too. :cool:

[momof4boys]

Wrong place at the wrong time applies here. We have worked in a maximum security prison for decades and get hazardous duty pay due to the dangers where we work. Family and friends constantly told us that we were in grave danger whenever we went to work. Two of those people worked in a "safe environment" in the World Trade Center....needless to say, despite everything we would like to think we do to keep ourselves safe..tragedy happens, and "wrong place at the wrong time" usually applies....as in this case.

 

...the blame lies solely with the person who pulled the trigger

 

Well said.

[paulandfran]

I agree. Plain pathetic:(

 

Yep. Can you imagine if they were on that cruise? They'd probably be hovering over the body arguing about something. Absolutely sick.

 

I can't believe this thread has deteriorated into this.

[Drazilcruz]

Savoia, read under the legal notices for the cruise contract and agreements printed on the website and included in all cruise documents issued to EVERY guest (section 2b):

 

"2. NATURE OF CRUISE AND GUEST’S OBLIGATIONS

 

(a) The Guest admits a full understanding of the character of the Vessel and assumes all risks incident to travel and transportation and handling of Guests and cargo. The Vessel may or may not carry a ship’s physician or other medical personnel at the election of Carnival. While at sea or in port the availability of medical care may be limited or delayed. Guest acknowledges that all or part of their voyage may be in areas where medical care and evacuation may not be available. Guest agrees to indemnify and reimburse Carnival in the event Carnival elects to advance the cost of emergency medical care, including medical care provided ashore as well as transportation and/or lodging in connection therewith.

(b) Carnival’s vessels visit numerous ports in a number of countries. Guests assume responsibility for their own safety and Carnival cannot guarantee Guest’s safety at any time. The United States Department of State, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and other governmental and tourist organizations regularly issue advisories and warnings to travelers and Carnival strongly recommends Guests obtain and consider such information when making travel decisions. Carnival assumes no responsibility for gathering said information. The Guest acknowledges that the cruise may be booked in a location that is susceptible to severe weather systems, including but not limited to, hurricanes, tropical storms and depressions, and that Carnival reserves the right to alter the ship’s course, ports of call, itinerary, activity and shore excursions to avoid such weather systems and insure the comfort and safety of the Guest and crew."

 

Carnival is basically a floating hotel, leave the premises/protection of the hotel and you are making that decision to assume all risk and responsibility. There is alot of information out there (ie: internet, books, message boards etc) so you have what you need to make an informed decision. Then there are unfortunate times when people are at the wrong place at the wrong time no matter how much info you have, my heart goes out to the family of that little girl.

[guau]

You still don't get it. Carnival CANNOT prevent independent tour operators from "soliciting" their passengers. Carnival CANNOT prevent its passengers from doing research on independent tour operators and making their own plans with them. Carnival CANNOT prevent its passengers from exiting the ship, entering a port, and hailing a taxi to anywhere they want to go!

 

nrdsb4,

This is not entirely true. Carnival is presently monopolizing several tours in PV. Don't take my word for it. If you call or email these individual excursion businesses, and tell them that you are a carnival passenger, they will flat out tell you that you CANNOT book through them for certain tours, and that you must book these tours through carnival. The six different companies that I have tried to book an excursion with all told me the same thing.

[nrdsb4]

nrdsb4,

This is not entirely true. Carnival is presently monopolizing several tours in PV. Don't take my word for it. If you call or email these individual excursion businesses, and tell them that you are a carnival passenger, they will flat out tell you that you CANNOT book through them for certain tours, and that you must book these tours through carnival. The six different companies that I have tried to book an excursion with all told me the same thing.

 

IF I want to get off the ship and hail a taxi to the beach in St. Thomas, Carnival is not stopping me.

[alwayshappytocruise]

I think you two (nrds4 and guau) should knock off the petty arguments and trying to outdo each other.....you have shown your lack of empathy quite clearly to most of us. I truly don't understand why you have kept this up for nearly 3 pages. This was a death....a DEATH of a 14 year old. That's what this thread is about.

[guau]

I think you two (nrds4 and guau) should knock off the petty arguments and trying to outdo each other.....you have shown your lack of empathy quite clearly to most of us. I truly don't understand why you have kept this up for nearly 3 pages. This was a death....a DEATH of a 14 year old. That's what this thread is about.

 

If I didn't have any empathy for the family's loss, I wouldn't have taken offense at carnival's letter to begin with. If you had read my earlier posts, you would know very well that I am fully aware that this was a death. Thanks for the newsflash.

[HighSeasTrekker]

Thanks for posting. That is such sad news. I recently sailed on the Victory just a few weeks ago. I got up early before my BVI excursion to go for a walk in St. Thomas and was told by a cab driver to go back to the ship, which I did immediately. I was completely unaware of the crime there. I will keep those affected in my thoughts.

-HST

[nrdsb4]

I think you two (nrds4 and guau) should knock off the petty arguments and trying to outdo each other.....you have shown your lack of empathy quite clearly to most of us. I truly don't understand why you have kept this up for nearly 3 pages. This was a death....a DEATH of a 14 year old. That's what this thread is about.

 

 

I have stated several times that it's a damn shame that blaming the cruiseline has become the focus of the thread rather than the death of the poor child. I also think the secondary focus of this thread should be: what should happen in St. Thomas to prevent another similar tragedy? So many cruise ships stop in St. Thomas. Is this incident an anomaly, or do the cruise lines need to apply pressure in the form of threats to pull out of the port in order to get the local authorities to crack down on gangs and criminals? Some of the residents of St. Thomas have suggested that the police are not interested in doing this-so what will it take to cause them to become interested? I would hate to see honest people in St. Thomas who depend on tourism to suffer-but sometimes it takes something like that to convince local government to take these kinds of problems seriously.

 

It's easy to complain about the problem. What is the solution to the problem? Or is there really no problem? Is this tragedy such a rarity that it needs to be written off as a freak occurrence that could have happened anywhere? Posts from residents and former residents seem to suggest otherwise.

[Yes We Can]

Someone posted this on the St. Thomas Board. Please read below.

 

What happened at Coki Beach is a horrible tragic event and should have never occurred. Unfortunately these events are not specific to St. Thomas and getting on a band wagon of mass hysteria serves no purpose other than instill MORE fear.

 

But if you want to avoid ST.Thomas, you might as well avoid these areas as well...(notice that most of these are cruise ports...)

 

http://barbadosfreepress.wordpress.c...y-bajan-press/

http://www.mexicovacationawareness.c.../joerucker.pdf

http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/560728

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7061705.ece

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_632607.html

Oh wait, these happened in MIAMI!!! We need to avoid Miami...

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/a...al/409683.html

http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/21001673435267/

and this by a police officer no doubt...

http://www.miamibeach411.com/news/in...armed-tourist/

 

 

The point is, innocent people are victims of violence throughout the world. Yes, Coki Beach is in a "bad" neighborhood. But the entire island is not a "bad" neighborhood. There are plenty of safe areas and beaches in St.Thomas.

 

So to say I will never go to St.Thomas again because it is unsafe, is like saying I will never drive my car on the highway again because I can get in a car accident.

 

That being said, will I be more vigilant while travelling? Absolutely! But will I stay away from some place I love because of crime? Nope. I might as well just stay safely locked up in my house and never go anywhere.

[sharecruises]

Great post "Yes we Can"...

 

and so true..sad but true

 

as I pointed out ...a 17 year old boy was the victim of a "drive by" in North Miami and his funeral was scheduled for July 3..

 

at his funeral, at the church, another drive by : 1 man killed and a woman seriously injured

 

NO national coverage...not even much local coverage

 

North Miami is not a place I would go, but have to go past it to get to Miami (port, south beach, coconut grove, coral gables, nice places)...of course we just drive past it on the turnpike or on 95

 

MY POINT is....there are dangerous areas anywhere

 

and random events

 

This is just a horrible tragedy...makes one think about avoiding that area , Coki, due to the nature of the area one must go through to get there (it must be stated yet again : this did NOT happen on the beach, it happened on the way to the beach)

 

There are many safe places and tours to enjoy in St Thomas

There are many safe places and tours in Miami and all the other places where tragedies have occurred

 

If you can pinpoint a dangerous area, don't go there

 

IMHO: if you are driving to Miami, don't "get off" the highways in North Miami, Liberty City, Overtown...

 

IMHO Carnival is surely NOT to blame here....they handled this very well, putting out facts and info to allay rumors and media exploitation, they were kind to this poor family , and they are no doubt going to error on the side of caution in ship tours.

 

St Thomas has the guy in custody, they are stepping up police patrols and caution, and I intend to go there and enjoy my visit on the Jan 30 sailing of Glory

 

I just won't get off 95 in North Miami or Liberty City on the way to the port <grin>