Fed up with negative attitudes because I'm British

[room010]

I have to disagree with your sentiment here.

 

I have never understood the idea in North America that tips are "mandatory". They are NOT mandatory. If I have a poor waiter/poor service in any venue, that person is NOT getting a tip. I see no need to "reward" that person for poor service. And, if the service is poor enough, then I will speak to a supervisor in ADDITION to not leaving a tip.

 

Why give such a person a tip (which is a reward for service whether you like it or not), but then complain about them? Makes no sense to me.

 

This wasn't the case in a certain Italian restaurant in NYC where the food and service were bad. We tried to leave without tipping and the Head Waiter came over with a couple of surly colleagues and stood over us demanding a 20% tip. It was extremely intimidating and so rather than risk a nasty incident we paid up and left. Welcome to NYC :D

[Euphemus]

I am the poster who asked for proof and the thread you provided just doesn't provide any. There are more people in that thread bashing Americans and I can't really see anyone "bashing" Brits or Germans. The thread was on another board and was started as this one was by a Brit. By the way, I love the British, visited there a number of times, my daughter went to school there and plan on returning in the next year.

 

I don't have an agenda (anti-Brit; pro-Brit; indifferent-Brit) other than to try to answer your question: is there some evidence of Brit bashing?

 

Our interpretations of the threads are different. I did see Brit bashing in those threads (by other Brits) and American bashing, and European bashing, and Australian bashing...really, nobody got out unscathed...except maybe the Canadians :). But to answer your question narrowly: yes, there are some posts that have harsh words about Brits and their tipping (on board and in general while traveling.)

 

My curiosity was piqued by the OP's reference to "hundreds." I don't read everything so it's possible that I missed them. However, I did remember some harsh words about Brits in connection to tipping and enough that I remembered thinking "Ouch" when I read the posts.

 

I will continue to look for the really ugly thread but, as I said, I think it got pulled because it got very heated, very negative, and very personal.

[PS90]

It is NEVER appropriate to leave your server no tip as long as you were waited on. Why should I have to pay money to serve you? (Which is what happens if you don't tip me).

 

I completely disagree with you here. You make it clear that you have a biased "interpretation" of the etiquette of tipping, since you state that you are a waitress, but that does not change the fact that tipping is an optional endeavor. It is not the onus of the customer to ensure that a poor server continues to be able to make a living at such a career, and therefore I feel no obligation to pretend that tipping is mandatory. Maybe I'm cold-hearted, but someone who is poor/uncaring about his job should be "motivated" to go into another line of work...

 

Disclaimer: I have never, and don't plan to ever reduce my suggested tip amount onboard a cruise ship, but would entertain the idea if the situation presented itself. I have left no tip at all in a few rare instances in land-based American restaurants - such as the time the waiter brought our entrees and the bill at the same time, and never re-appeared. Did I feel bad about not tipping? - NO WAY.

[Euphemus]

Well, if nothing else, my attitude will help to blur the nationality lines of this thread. :)

 

If I don't want the crew to "learn" to expect additional tips, is that a typically British or American attitude?

 

Well really neither...which is my point.

 

And I'm not sure that they "learn" to expect additional tips for just being there doing their job. As someone who once held a job that depended on tips (lo those many years ago in college) *I* learned this: when I gave superior service, when I went out of my way and beyond my job description, when I helped to make the customer's experience better: I earned a bigger than average tip. I expect that most crew members make this connection as well: truly outstanding service often (not always) renders more in tips.

 

I equated getting the larger tips with going the extra mile. And so I learned to keep doing it, even when I was tired, even when I was not feeling well. I kept going above and beyond because I needed and wanted the extra money that it brought in. I could have just put in my time and taken the standard to middling tip, but I didn't. I expect that most crew members are the same: "When I really shine, when I really enhance the experience for the passenger...some/most passengers slip me some extra $."

 

In fact, the lesson for me was born out when I (unknowingly) waited on the manager of another higher-end dining establishment one night. At the end of the meal, he tipped me well and offered me a job in his restaurant on the spot (which took some cojones). My approach to my job helped me get a another job in which I earned even more in tips (higher priced food and alcohol means more in tips) even though I was doing essentially the same job.

 

In the end, it's really capitalism at it's best: Pay me what you think I'm worth for doing the job you want done. If I like what I get in return, I'll keep doing it. If I can figure out how you will keep rewarding me or reward me even more, I'll do that, too. (Well, within limits :))

 

I would give the crew members more credit. There not all just standing around waiting to be showered with cash or looking forlorn with their hands out expectatnly. Most are too busy working hard.

 

Just my opinion.

[laiki]

I completely disagree with you here. You make it clear that you have a biased "interpretation" of the etiquette of tipping, since you state that you are a waitress, but that does not change the fact that tipping is an optional endeavor. It is not the onus of the customer to ensure that a poor server continues to be able to make a living at such a career, and therefore I feel no obligation to pretend that tipping is mandatory. Maybe I'm cold-hearted, but someone who is poor/uncaring about his job should be "motivated" to go into another line of work...

 

Disclaimer: I have never, and don't plan to ever reduce my suggested tip amount onboard a cruise ship, but would entertain the idea if the situation presented itself. I have left no tip at all in a few rare instances in land-based American restaurants - such as the time the waiter brought our entrees and the bill at the same time, and never re-appeared. Did I feel bad about not tipping? - NO WAY.

 

I will leave bad tips, if the service indicates. I have never not tipped at all. Even if the service was not good, it was still service, thus at the absolute minimum 5%.

 

Tips and service are correlated, the better the service the better the tip. If there is service there should be a tip. It is highly unlikely that you received no service, otherwise how did you order your food and get your food??

 

Poor Service = Poor tip, Average Service = Average tip, Great Service = Great tip. If someone (In America who is not receiving a real hourly wage) greets you, takes your drink order, takes your food order, brings you your drinks and food and condiments and cleans your stuff away then they have fulfilled their job. They deserve an adequate tip.

 

I completely disagree with you here. You make it clear that you have a biased "interpretation" of the etiquette of tipping, since you state that you are a waitress, but that does not change the fact that tipping is an optional endeavor. It is not the onus of the customer to ensure that a poor server continues to be able to make a living at such a career, and therefore I feel no obligation to pretend that tipping is mandatory.

 

Also if a service charge/gratuity is added to the bill then this really gets away from truly being optional, yet people still request it to be taken off, even though it is clearly stated on the menu. When managers ask why some answers include "oh it is just too much," "well nothing was really wrong exactly," or my favorite "we just don't have enough money for a tip."

 

I think that all these attempts to justify not tipping at all or consistently tipping poorly are just a cover for being cheap. I really doubt the service was that horrible that frequently.

 

All this of course being relevant to infrastructures that operate under the United States wage and tipping policies. In other countries their respective customs should be followed.

[Euphemus]

... but would entertain the idea if the situation presented itself. I have left no tip at all in a few rare instances in land-based American restaurants....

 

I did wait tables for a time many years ago (in a far off galaxy).

 

I do agree that horrible service should be rewarded accordingly and I have no compunction now about leaving less, if the case warrants.

 

I only offer this one suggestion, from second-hand experience: if you really want to send a message, you will leave something but something so miniscule as to be clear.

 

You can't believe the number of totally numb (and bad) wait staff that say: "Hey...that guy forgot to leave a tip." All the while I'm thinking: "Forgot? Really? Are you sure it wasn't because you mixed up their order/spilled a drink without apologizing/never went back to the table when they wanted something (or fill in the blank)??

 

When you leave a very teeny-tiny amount, the message is crystal clear: "I did not forget. I left you a small amount on purpose." I have seen some people quit that night. I have seen some people (OK, one) have a change of heart and really improve. I have seen some who are now not oblivious to their poor performance but continue to do the job the same.

 

Again, I only offer this as a suggestion and only for those cases where you really want to leave nothing.

 

In the 20 years since I waited tables I've done this exactly once. The service was so spectacularly bad, I thought I was being filmed for Candid Camera. :eek:

[dkjretired]

I don't have an agenda (anti-Brit; pro-Brit; indifferent-Brit) other than to try to answer your question: is there some evidence of Brit bashing?

 

Our interpretations of the threads are different. I did see Brit bashing in those threads (by other Brits) and American bashing, and European bashing, and Australian bashing...really, nobody got out unscathed...except maybe the Canadians :). But to answer your question narrowly: yes, there are some posts that have harsh words about Brits and their tipping (on board and in general while traveling.)

 

My curiosity was piqued by the OP's reference to "hundreds." I don't read everything so it's possible that I missed them. However, I did remember some harsh words about Brits in connection to tipping and enough that I remembered thinking "Ouch" when I read the posts.

 

I will continue to look for the really ugly thread but, as I said, I think it got pulled because it got very heated, very negative, and very personal.

 

I appreciate your point however shouldn't it be the responsibility of the person making the allegation to find the examples. I only say this as this is not the only subject that this occurs.

[Euphemus]

I appreciate your point however shouldn't it be the responsibility of the person making the allegation to find the examples. I only say this as this is not the only subject that this occurs.

 

I do agree with you on this. It was only my personal curiosity that pushed me to look into it farther. (Or was it the fact that I really didn't want to grade those final exams on a hot day? :))

 

And I do agree that broad generalities are not necessarily helpful.

 

I actually wanted to verify for myself what I *thought* I remembered. Again, I thought it was more germane to the conversation to point out that the harshest comments about British tipping habits came from posters with the UK as a location!!!

[smtcan]

When we were in Shanghai, we ordered pizza (I know, not the usual thing to do). My son tipped the delivery guy as he would at home (Canada). The guy left, but about ten minutes later he returned saying 'too much, too much', and handing us the extra money. DS commented that a week earlier he had been in New York City, had terrible service and left 5% tip. The waitress followed him out of the restaurant and said 'in US it is customary to tip for service - don't bother coming here again' Although we live in Canada, we are of British origin, and have the accents to prove it!

Sheila

[Euphemus]

I was agreeing with you. That's why I increased the font and bolded that one statement. The rest of the post wasn't referring to you but other posts I have seen on tipping at the end of the cruise from other threads. Sorry if you thought I meant you.

 

Ahhh. My mistake. No harm. Taken in that light, we do indeed agree. :)

[Tenn4ever]

I did wait tables for a time many years ago (in a far off galaxy).

 

I do agree that horrible service should be rewarded accordingly and I have no compunction now about leaving less, if the case warrants.

 

I only offer this one suggestion, from second-hand experience: if you really want to send a message, you will leave something but something so miniscule as to be clear.

 

You can't believe the number of totally numb (and bad) wait staff that say: "Hey...that guy forgot to leave a tip." All the while I'm thinking: "Forgot? Really? Are you sure it wasn't because you mixed up their order/spilled a drink without apologizing/never went back to the table when they wanted something (or fill in the blank)??

 

When you leave a very teeny-tiny amount, the message is crystal clear: "I did not forget. I left you a small amount on purpose." I have seen some people quit that night. I have seen some people (OK, one) have a change of heart and really improve. I have seen some who are now not oblivious to their poor performance but continue to do the job the same.

 

Again, I only offer this as a suggestion and only for those cases where you really want to leave nothing.

 

In the 20 years since I waited tables I've done this exactly once. The service was so spectacularly bad, I thought I was being filmed for Candid Camera. :eek:

 

Euphemus, you took my very thoughts. Although, we have done this, probably, three times in the last twenty years. In each case the service was absymal. Instead of leaving a good tip we left a dollar in the folder. We knew this would make more of a point then leaving nothing. Once we left two quarters and one time it was so bad we left some pennies.

[laiki]

Euphemus, you took my very thoughts. Although, we have done this, probably, three times in the last twenty years. In each case the service was absymal. Instead of leaving a good tip we left a dollar in the folder. We knew this would make more of a point then leaving nothing. Once we left two quarters and one time it was so bad we left some pennies.

 

This is definitely appropriate when the service is so bad! I like how you noted that this has only happened "probably, three times in the last twenty years."

[pspercy]

"I did not forget. I left you a small amount on purpose."

 

We did that once at a high end place. The guy chased us out of the building saying "Was something wrong?" LOL

[sasset]

We tip the suggested amount regardless of level of service. If they pool the gratuities, which I believe the do, it all evens out.

 

If the suggested gratuitiy isn't sufficient, then the suggestion should be changed.

 

In reality the fare should reflect a fair wage for the staff.

[sasset]

We are seniors living on a tight budget, yet we chose to cruise.

We do one cruise a year and save hard for it. When everything is added into a cruise it's a lot of money for us. So we only pay what the suggested rate is as re tipping, we just do not have extra to give, but are in agreement with the amount .;)

 

Good for you for being knowledgeable about the process.

 

But I'm sure that there are many, like you, that are seniors living on a tight budget and are either first timers and/or are not aware of this site. If they see "suggested" they may weigh their budget and see that as optional which would be a reasonable rookie mistake.

 

The cruise lines should pay a fair wage and build it in to the fare...suggested never connotes expected or mandatory.

[chromered7]

If we pre pay for grattuities then surely it is our decision on the ship if we feel that the service we get requires a tip. It cannot be taken for granted that you will tip everyone because standards will drop. The fact that pay on the ships is low is not the fault of the cruisers only the owners, we supplement the crews salary with pre pay.

[Euphemus]

I found the thread I was talking about. I was looking in the wrong place but it's essentially as I remembered it.

 

This is the whole thread:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1348490&highlight=independence+tip

 

This is just one quote from the OP from that thread some 6 or 7 pages in:

 

"I didnt realise asking a question would cause such hostility"

 

While there is no "overt" bashing of Brits as a whole (no where does anyone say anything like "Oh you stingy Brits") but those who are clearly British (based on location or their own admission) do get quite a tongue lashing for their opinions with regard to tips, and the word "stingy" does bandied about.

 

The OP of this thread said she was fed up with negative attitudes because she's British. It was questioned as to whether this negative attitude/harsh words/Brit bashing actually happens. This is the thread that I remembered thinking "Ouch" (on behalf of my UK cousins).

 

Not to add fuel to the fire but I do believe that the OP of the thread that I posted above was a bit disingenuous. She started out asking "Is tipping optional?" although it is clear from her later posts that she already knew the answer to that question so I don't really know what she hoped to accomplish by asking it.

[dkjretired]

If we pre pay for grattuities then surely it is our decision on the ship if we feel that the service we get requires a tip. It cannot be taken for granted that you will tip everyone because standards will drop. The fact that pay on the ships is low is not the fault of the cruisers only the owners, we supplement the crews salary with pre pay.

 

If you pre=pay gratuities they cannot be changed or removed once on the ship.

[Taxguy77]

I did wait tables for a time many years ago (in a far off galaxy).

 

I do agree that horrible service should be rewarded accordingly and I have no compunction now about leaving less, if the case warrants.

 

I only offer this one suggestion, from second-hand experience: if you really want to send a message, you will leave something but something so miniscule as to be clear.

 

You can't believe the number of totally numb (and bad) wait staff that say: "Hey...that guy forgot to leave a tip." All the while I'm thinking: "Forgot? Really? Are you sure it wasn't because you mixed up their order/spilled a drink without apologizing/never went back to the table when they wanted something (or fill in the blank)??

 

When you leave a very teeny-tiny amount, the message is crystal clear: "I did not forget. I left you a small amount on purpose." I have seen some people quit that night. I have seen some people (OK, one) have a change of heart and really improve. I have seen some who are now not oblivious to their poor performance but continue to do the job the same.

 

Again, I only offer this as a suggestion and only for those cases where you really want to leave nothing.

 

In the 20 years since I waited tables I've done this exactly once. The service was so spectacularly bad, I thought I was being filmed for Candid Camera. :eek:

 

I have done that,, and on a credit card bill. Hopefully management realized the person needed an attitude adjustment.

Thankfully I haven't had service (?) that bad for several years.

[willma]

Please can I ask a daft question?

We have prepaid our gratuities, as suggested by our TA.

The question is, how do the staff know this?

Told you it was daft....!

[gracecarmo]

I believe there is a list posted down in the crew quarters....at least that is what our butler told us recently. They know.

[willma]

Thanks gracecarmo,

I am beginning to get a bit scared! I hope they all read the list!

[Euphemus]

Thanks gracecarmo,

I am beginning to get a bit scared! I hope they all read the list!

 

Believe me: they read the list.

 

If you're in the my-time-dining option, they know automatically you have paid because you have to prepay to participate. Even if you wait until you board to switch into this option from regular seating, they will charge your OB account for the full tips for the entire cruise that same day. At least this is what happened on our New Year's cruise when we switched from 8:30 seating into open seating.

[PS90]

I did wait tables for a time many years ago (in a far off galaxy).

 

I do agree that horrible service should be rewarded accordingly and I have no compunction now about leaving less, if the case warrants.

 

I only offer this one suggestion, from second-hand experience: if you really want to send a message, you will leave something but something so miniscule as to be clear.

 

You can't believe the number of totally numb (and bad) wait staff that say: "Hey...that guy forgot to leave a tip." All the while I'm thinking: "Forgot? Really? Are you sure it wasn't because you mixed up their order/spilled a drink without apologizing/never went back to the table when they wanted something (or fill in the blank)??

 

When you leave a very teeny-tiny amount, the message is crystal clear: "I did not forget. I left you a small amount on purpose." I have seen some people quit that night. I have seen some people (OK, one) have a change of heart and really improve. I have seen some who are now not oblivious to their poor performance but continue to do the job the same.

 

Again, I only offer this as a suggestion and only for those cases where you really want to leave nothing.

 

In the 20 years since I waited tables I've done this exactly once. The service was so spectacularly bad, I thought I was being filmed for Candid Camera. :eek:

 

I completely agree with your sentiment here.

 

I want to be clear - in NO WAY do I condone not tipping or reducing the tip onboard a cruiseship. But I also contend that tipping is a discretionary endeavor, not mandatory as some people try to make it sound.

[Euphemus]

I completely agree with your sentiment here.

 

I want to be clear - in NO WAY do I condone not tipping or reducing the tip onboard a cruiseship. But I also contend that tipping is a discretionary endeavor, not mandatory as some people try to make it sound.

 

On this, we agree.

 

I'm on the fence about including the tip as part of the sticker price of the cruise. Other fees would rise as well: taxes, commissions, etc...And as I noted in my post, it could remove worker motivation to give excellent service.

 

After listening to everyone, I'm inclined to say that, while certainly not mandatory, it may very well be in everyone's long-term best interest to tip the suggested amount (barring poor service). Of course, short-term interests my rule the day.

 

You mileage may vary.