Costa Concordia SINKING

[Britchic4]

Carnival and Micky Arison are keeping a very safe distance from Costa for very a good reason. There is nothing good that would come from this sitatuion and Carival doesn't want it's name dragged into it further.

 

The Captain as part of this legal defenece may very likely go after Roberto Ferrarini (Costa's Director or Marine operations), whom it's been reported the captain was on the phone with for a most of that first hour. It's also beennoted that at that time there was nothing being done by the Captain Schettino or Roberto Ferrarini to help passengers.

 

Passengers and the family members of the deceased will be filing law suits against Costa.

 

They have already started. I can't find where I read it, but its mentioned here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/16607424

[TheBestIsYetToCome]

4) 9.48 pm Schettino ask at 1st officer to check engine room, he then say that the engine room its all flooded

5) 9.49 pm Former Costa Capitan Palombo call Costa Cruises and ask what is happening. Meanwhile the Police (Guardia di Finanza) its taken under alarm

6) 9.52 pm The speed of the ship fall to 4 knots (suddenly from 15). At this point the ship turn left and going straight toward harbour of Island of Giglio. On board its found there are some wounded people.

7) 9.58 pm The ship approach the shore (scoglio di punta Gabbianella) at speed about 2 knots.

8) 10.05 pm Costa Cruise call the Ship, Schettino said generically to have “problems” on board, seems he do not talk about collision.

 

As I said yesterday, I'm not a boater. So, here's my stoopid question for today. If, by 9:48, the Captain ascertains the engine room to be flooded....is there any reason for him to delay beyond a moment or two for critical decision-making an alert for the crew to muster the passengers? (And when I say "any reason" I mean "any reason related to the operation of the ship.")

[GioRaf]

Hi Gio, your posts are very helpful.

 

Regards your question please consider this: when you make someone a "Captain", they are the sole and final authority for operation of the vessel, be it a ship, plane, or military device. Necessary because there often is no way to call home for advice. Having Costa watch every minute over your shoulder and call you with orders defeats the concept of Command. If you can't trust your Captain, you need a new Captain.

 

The true problem is that Costa elevated such an undisiplined fool to the position (I wonder whose nephew he is). I hope it's not true of their other Skippers.

 

So, just more to think about Gio, no offense intended. I love reading your information.

 

Thank you dear for your words.

 

You are right, capitain shoudl always be in charge, what i mean it is that the company could and for me should check what the capitan do.

 

If the company had found that he changed the scheduled route, he have to explain and if explain its not seriosus (like it is on this case and on past situation) the company shoud change the capitan.

 

If the company do not know or do not do such things, on my opinion make the company responsibile at same level of this capitan.

 

In fact if the company had a good check after every cruise such kind of beahviour that had the capitian would never happened again and such 11+ life where still with us and 3000 people could be now a lot more happy to cruise.

 

But may be im wrong

[reallyitsmema]

If you look at the nautical charts it gives you an indication of the

state of the sea bed and whether it is flat or not but it is highly likely that its uneven in places.

 

I would have thought that it would be adventageous to pin the ship to its current location by maybe this might impede further rescue work or salvage work. If I had my way I would be putting mass lines to the shore to stop further movemenber.

Isn't the area the ship is laying kind of stepped? I had read somewhere, and I will try to find the link, that the ship was on a shelf or step of 30m and the next was 70m down.

 

And as far putting mass lines to shore, would that put undo stress on the hull and cause it to split if it did start to slide? Just wondering.

[guernseyguy]

If the company do not know or do not do such things, on my opinion make the company responsibile at same level of the captain

it's the age old question "who knew what when?"

 

Italian PM Monti has just been asked at a 10 Downing St Press Conference "should the Concordia disaster have been avoided" - he replied that we need to wait for the inquiry but attested to the generous response of the local populace" - he probably preferred to be asked about that than the Euro.....

[IRL_Joanie]

I still have 2 more pages of posts to read, posted after I went to bed last night, so do not know whether or not the following question has been answered yet.

 

Some have asked, "How was Schettino supposed to get back onto the ship as ordered by the Coast Guardia Commander Di Facto if the only ladder available or seen was in use by passengers attempting to utilize it for evacuation?"

 

The answer(s) are simple:

 

1. remember that Commander Di Facto had already told Schettino that there was a Coast Guardia Rescue person on the bow of the ship!!

 

2. There was at least 1 rescue helicopter there also not only assisting in the rescue, but also one, if not the same helicopter, that was taking the Night Vision video.

 

My conclusion is that IF Schettino had really and truly wanted to get back aboard to assist in the rescue, he'd have found a way to do so!!

 

I compare Schettino to another infamously cowardly Cruise Ship Captain from the MTS Oceanos 1991 off the coast of South Africa. I cannot provide many links or the most informative one since WikiPedia has gone "Black" for 24 hours, so here are just 2 links: http://www.allatsea.co.za/oceanosmainpage.htm and http://www.nytimes.com/1991/08/08/news/08iht-ship.html

 

Joanie

[JJSMaine]

Thank you dear for your words.

 

You are right, capitain shoudl always be in charge, what i mean it is that the company could and for me should check what the capitan do.

 

If the company had found that he changed the scheduled route, he have to explain and if explain its not seriosus (like it is on this case and on past situation) the company shoud change the capitan.

 

If the company do not know or do not do such things, on my opinion make the company responsibile at same level of this capitan.

 

In fact if the company had a good check after every cruise such kind of beahviour that had the capitian would never happened again and such 11+ life where still with us and 3000 people could be now a lot more happy to cruise.

 

But may be im wrong

 

..... some speculation ....

 

If it is found that this ship was allowed to pass by this Island more than the one time in August, it would show that the Corp office were in part accountable for the ability for this Captain to think he had the authority to do so.. IOW ( in other words) if we find that this ship and this captain has done this or similar events in the past, and was not disciplined, then they are in part culpable. Further if it is found that Costa regularly allows their Captains to deviate from the prescribed courses on other ships, it looks real bad for the the company as a whole. Corporate culture could be one of the legs of this situation developing. My hope is that this guys is a maverick and it is proven, in the clear, that Costa is not cavalier in their operations... otherwise it is extremely bad for the entire industry. As it is right now, it seems to have been proven that someone that should not be, is able to get to the top o of the leadership chain in the Cruise industry. As I said before, I'll need some assurance from the entire industry because of this.

 

None of the above detracts from the case against the Captain. I am so so angry at him.... I find men that have this macho gene to be offensive in the extreme. They are responsible for so much damage to people and property. This attitude of superiority and the bravado and machismo is just revolting. A man can cry and still be a man, but when he wets his pants and abdicates his responsibility, he is no longer a man.

 

Machismo has no place on the bridge of a cruise ship... maybe an attack craft of some kind in all out war, but not on any cruise ship I am on.

 

I live on the coast of Maine. This kind of incident would have been more deadly, just due to the lower temperatures and potentially heavier seas. All summer long cruise ships ply the coast with thousands of passengers..... how safe are they? How safe will I be if I choose to go next fall? It all comes down to the decision makers on board, and those that operate and maintain the ship. Show me industry.. show me that you care and that you are willing to demonstrate a higher level of proactive results.. not plans or ideas or updates to manuals... . actions. Disaster training needs to be more in depth, more realistic and more often.

 

( can you imagine how much fun it would be to participate in drills on board as a guest... getting to be the screaming passengers... how hard the crews would have to work to get through the moving and water splashing and wind.. and the show of organization by the ship and crew would be good for the moral of all )

 

( and I'll go away for a while.. I've been talking too much )

[TVMet]

I disagree strongly.

 

This incident shows that there are some major issues with how the helm of a Cruise Ship is operated.

 

I will want to see an industry wide reaction to this incident.

 

I want to see Captains ans xeior crew of ALL cruise lines go through life like scenario training. All the experience in the world does no good if when disaster strikes you go "deer in the headlights".

 

I want to see cruise companies train some of their personnel in the same way. The person in charge of my lifeboat should not have only had training when the ship was level and the weather was fine. I want to see training in the pouring rain with the ship moving a bit... with people screaming at them while they try to make decisions.

 

The entire industry has some work to do to satisfy me that they are taking a more serious approach to safety. This incident proves that current training is inadequate for the crew to do a good job.

 

This incident shows how far a captain can go when their head is pumped up full of themselves and we adoring cruisers treat them like movie stars.... next time I meet a captain.. I am going to look him right in the eye and ask him if he ever had to abandon ship.

 

We, the cruising people that have fed this beast, are also responsible for not holding these companies to a higher standard. We likely thought that something like this could happen, but we also thought that with modern communications and systems, it just wasn't possible, not with so many people on the bridge etc etc. .. but it did.

 

As I said in some message way back in the thread.. .there had to have been a corporate culture and a command culture that allowed this to happen... and that must change.

 

A Captain is NOT a downhill skier, but this one certainly took on the role.

 

 

So nice damage control attempt... but I think the reality is many of us will be second guessing the lines we travel and when and if we will.

 

 

 

.and to whit... let this conversation not be filled with excuse makers or other damage control posts. There is no excuse at all for this incident.

 

 

 

Now comes the anger.

 

Very good post.

[IRL_Joanie]

Again some live view from rescue work (this doesn't seem to be always on:

http://www.aftonbladet.se/webbtv/nyheter/olyckor/article14228292.ab

 

Thank You!!!! This is the Live Streaming Web Cam I was trying to locate last night.

 

Joanie

[Hebersgyll]

but but but.. .we know UP FRONT that Clarkson and company are a bunch or ner-do-wells that will most certainly mess-up whatever they touch... no one in their right mind would get in a car with any of them....

 

 

that said.. yes they do show off and may create a bad impression for people to follow... but then as I said.. we all know up front how they will act....

 

We THOUGHT we knew up front how the Captain of a Cruise Ship should act.

 

 

I appreciate your point, Jason... but I'm trying to distinguish, perhaps, between how you, I and others might be influenced by that kind of culture and how someone (like Schettino) predisposed by their personality & adventurous character traits might be influenced? Theirin lies the danger and the need to continually monitor and appraise the performance of commanding officers as well as the crew they command.

[jopocop]

Since this disaster happened I have been posting that the Cruise Industry needs to be forced to come up with a command center that monitors each bridge 24/7 via remote control TV and computers, to verify that all proper handling of the ship is being accomplished. That is, the Captain and his bridge team are watched and in synch with the command center who sees the ship with GPS and TV monitors and computer feeds into the command center.

 

Had Costa had a command center, then, running 24/7, they would today have a billion ship still at sea, no disaster, all human life spared, making money on this cruise and subsequent ones with this ship.

 

No, for years now, the Cruise Industry has resisted this kind of remote monitoring, figuring they wanted to save the money.

 

This will cost them far more than the electronic technology I am posting about.

 

I would apprecate people on this forum to express their opinions whether the Industry should be required to adopt a command center that watches over the running of their ships.

[JJSMaine]

I appreciate your point, Jason... but I'm trying to distinguish, perhaps, between how you, I and others might be influenced by that kind of culture and how someone (like Schettino) predisposed by their personality & adventurous character traits might be influenced? Theirin lies the danger and the need to continually monitor and appraise the performance of commanding officers as well as the crew they command.

 

 

Totally agreed ( and I said I'd shut up for a while) .. there is likely a culture aspect to the incident as I referenced in my last post.. there is a lot of hero worship for the Captains by the cruising public. .. and it is indeed a position of great power and importance, and methinks we are a bit culpable for putting these men on a pedestal.

 

Certainly the culture of bravado, as evidenced by the self proclaimed idiots of Top Gear and of the Italians own daredevil down hill skier, and perhaps even some of the Italian governmental leadership ( let alone GWB).. but let us not devolve into politics ( cough)

 

One poster, a while back talked about the change in culture in the Airline Industry after that nasty 747 crash on a resort Island, where a junior officer was unable to challenge the senior officer. This will happen in the marine industry now.. or at least I hope it does.. or will male egos continue to get in the way, because they feel their manhood gets challenged by this kind of structure??

 

( the captains and officers I have personally dealt with have all been people that I trusted by the feel of their presence. yet, I will look much much closer now, and I have a letter to my preferred line in my head asking a lot of questions... a lot... )

[Clar5]

Since this disaster happened I have been posting that the Cruise Industry needs to be forced to come up with a command center that monitors each bridge 24/7 via remote control TV and computers, to verify that all proper handling of the ship is being accomplished. That is, the Captain and his bridge team are watched and in synch with the command center who sees the ship with GPS and TV monitors and computer feeds into the command center.

 

Had Costa had a command center, then, running 24/7, they would today have a billion ship still at sea, no disaster, all human life spared, making money on this cruise and subsequent ones with this ship.

 

No, for years now, the Cruise Industry has resisted this kind of remote monitoring, figuring they wanted to save the money.

 

This will cost them far more than the electronic technology I am posting about.

 

I would apprecate people on this forum to express their opinions whether the Industry should be required to adopt a command center that watches over the running of their ships.

 

I was under the impression that there already was one to a certain extent. It was my understanding that in Genoa there was a room where all of the location data from the ships are beamed to, aka AIS data. That Costa knows that on such and such a time Ship A is located at these coordinates heading towards this location.

 

Beyond that, I'm not sure. But they should at least have camera data, however if the power on the ship goes out, this would go out as well, unless theres battery backup which has to be tested on a regular basis.

[HelloHelloHola]

..... some speculation ....

 

Further if it is found that Costa regularly allows their Captains to deviate from the prescribed courses on other ships, it looks real bad for the the company as a whole.

 

Does Costa and other cruise companies care that captains deviate from their normal courses and in doing so, burn extra fuel? I know that airline pilots are always contacting air traffic controller to request for higher elevation as soon as possible in order to save fuel. It seems the 2 cultures are not the same

[Seago2]

Just thinking about the way this conversation was going pages and pages ago... It appears as though the victims paid very close attention to the muster drill as 7 of the 11 who lost their lives were found, life jackets on, at their muster station. Did they wait there, watching others run past, heading for the promenade deck?

[cdamion]

Since this disaster happened I have been posting that the Cruise Industry needs to be forced to come up with a command center that monitors each bridge 24/7 via remote control TV and computers, to verify that all proper handling of the ship is being accomplished. That is, the Captain and his bridge team are watched and in synch with the command center who sees the ship with GPS and TV monitors and computer feeds into the command center.

 

Had Costa had a command center, then, running 24/7, they would today have a billion ship still at sea, no disaster, all human life spared, making money on this cruise and subsequent ones with this ship.

 

No, for years now, the Cruise Industry has resisted this kind of remote monitoring, figuring they wanted to save the money.

 

This will cost them far more than the electronic technology I am posting about.

 

I would apprecate people on this forum to express their opinions whether the Industry should be required to adopt a command center that watches over the running of their ships.

 

This seems a bit of overkill to me. Essentially you would have to have a second 'captain' watching the captain and bridge officers of every ship 24/7 second guessing their every move. It doesn't really seem feasible for what is seemingly an isolated incident.

 

Then what would the 'eye in the sky' do when there was a deviation? Call the captain who would just say that he is avoiding vessel traffic or some other anomaly in the seas that the 'eye in the sky' can't see? I don't know that it would make much of a difference.

 

I still am of the opinion that the captain should be in charge of the vessel and not somebody sitting in a dark room in Miami second guessing his decisions.

 

No matter how much control you try to put into place, you can not remove the human factor. Look at the KLM 747 captain's decision to take off despite air traffic control telling him to hold that resulted in the deaths of almost 600 people in the Canary Islands disaster in 1977. Numerous reports blamed his ego as he was essentially the brand ambassador for the airline.

 

Who is right here? I don't know, but I do appreciate an intelligent debate on CC.

[JJSMaine]

man .. oh man...

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/9022902/Costa-Concordia-captains-actions-disgraceful-says-cruise-ships-reluctant-hero.html

[cdamion]

Totally agreed ( and I said I'd shut up for a while) .. there is likely a culture aspect to the incident as I referenced in my last post.. there is a lot of hero worship for the Captains by the cruising public. .. and it is indeed a position of great power and importance, and methinks we are a bit culpable for putting these men on a pedestal.

 

Certainly the culture of bravado, as evidenced by the self proclaimed idiots of Top Gear and of the Italians own daredevil down hill skier, and perhaps even some of the Italian governmental leadership ( let alone GWB).. but let us not devolve into politics ( cough)

 

One poster, a while back talked about the change in culture in the Airline Industry after that nasty 747 crash on a resort Island, where a junior officer was unable to challenge the senior officer. This will happen in the marine industry now.. or at least I hope it does.. or will male egos continue to get in the way, because they feel their manhood gets challenged by this kind of structure??

 

( the captains and officers I have personally dealt with have all been people that I trusted by the feel of their presence. yet, I will look much much closer now, and I have a letter to my preferred line in my head asking a lot of questions... a lot... )

 

For some reason when I cruise, I have happened to bump into the captains and chat with them a little bit (oddly more than cruise directors). Very generically speaking, I can put the captains into two categories: the quieter ones that seem less comfortable in public that seem like they'd rather be on the bridge, and then there are the ones that are much more visible that seem to like mingling with the guests and getting 'star treatment'. Just an observation.

[TheBestIsYetToCome]

I appreciate your point, Jason... but I'm trying to distinguish, perhaps, between how you, I and others might be influenced by that kind of culture and how someone (like Schettino) predisposed by their personality & adventurous character traits might be influenced? Theirin lies the danger and the need to continually monitor and appraise the performance of commanding officers as well as the crew they command.

 

I don't suppose any of us would really like to sail with a commander who wasn't at least a bit of a risk-taker? A captain that sets out to sail a 114,000 ton ship without a deep awareness of the possible dangers?? No thanks. So, the "adventurous character traits" are a double-edged sword.

[Red Mini Stapler]

"The captain is the last person to leave the sinking ship," veteran cruise ship commander Capt. William Wright told ABC News. "I find it very hard to understand how any captain under such dire circumstances would elect to leave his vessel."

 

that's one of the captain at RCCL, right?

[cdamion]

What with pesky work to do I've been too busy to look at any of the international news sites.

 

Has anybody indicated when the contents of the Black Boxes would be examined and released to the public. There is an awful lot of speculation by the media and here on CC, but they will contain the definitive answers (other than 'what the heck was the captain thinking').

[guernseyguy]

Does Costa and other cruise companies care that captains deviate from their normal courses and in doing so, burn extra fuel? I know that airline pilots are always contacting air traffic controller to request for higher elevation as soon as possible in order to save fuel. It seems the 2 cultures are not the same

 

I know the Cunard captains compete to see who can cross the Atlantic on QM2 using the least fuel.....

[guernseyguy]

Looks like the last sail by got very close too. And closer than Costa said in their statement....

 

I'm sure more will come out - there must have been elements within Costa's culture that allowed such an unsuitable Captain to remain in position....

[IRL_Joanie]

..... ( can you imagine how much fun it would be to participate in drills on board as a guest... getting to be the screaming passengers... how hard the crews would have to work to get through the moving and water splashing and wind.. and the show of organization by the ship and crew would be good for the moral of all )

 

( and I'll go away for a while.. I've been talking too much )

 

Please do not go away!!!

 

I will happily be a more than willing volunteer to assist in a Mass Casualty (Emergency) Training Event aboard any ship I am on!!!

 

1. It would be more realistic than the training they undergo now

2. They would have to deal with a panicked female who is mobility challenged (I use a walker and a scooter)

3. More realistic training with screaming, demanding passengers makes for a better reaction during a real emergency situation!!

 

My husband and I have been discussing this as a major way to really train the crew in case of a real emergency.

 

Great Idea that I feel should be done at least once monthly on any and all cruise ships.

 

Joanie

[astrocruises]

I've been on world cruises where a high percentage of passengers are on for multiple segments. Sometimes these passengers are excused from muster drills if they have participated in a drill on a previous segment, and sometimes all passengers are still required to participate -- it's a decision made on the ship.

 

In the case of an itinerary with multiple embarkation points (such as this one), it wouldn't be feasible to have a general muster drill at every port BUT NOTHING TO PREVENT REQUIRING NEWLY EMBARKING PASSENGERS TO MUSTER THAT DAY. The drills I think make the most sense are the ones scheduled after the all-aboard and before the ship leaves port. Again, it's a decision that the master of the ship could make, and it would indicate just how seriously the master and cruise line takes the safety issue. To wait until the day before disembarkation to require a passenger to participate in a muster drill sends a clear message that these drills and what they represent have a low priority.

 

Sorry for shouting, but it's an important point and lives could depend on it.