Concordia News: Please Post Here

[balf]

[quote name=Max49;

So can they legislate new rules that no egotistical ' date=' arrogant, wreckless , selfish, cowardly in competent person can be captain of a ship? /QUOTE]

 

They don't need to legislate, they need to know the people who they promote. I have never sailed with Costa, never would have before and never will. But take Cunard line. I have sailed with quite a few Cunard captains, many have climbed up the promotion ladder, starting as cadets before years later getting the top job in charge of a Cunard ship. They have been observed through those years and they don't need psychological assessment to know that they are fully competent.

 

David.

[CostaSmurfette]

Maybe another aspect of change...some might say another common sense measure...would be to cease fast tracking officer promotions.

 

Gone are the times where a ship's Master took years to get to that position after working years through the ranks. Nowadays it seems that promotions are being handed out a little too quickly perhaps...so that these new "Masters" are placed in charge too soon and without any insight into their character traits or their real abilities under pressure.

 

Afterall...just cos these people have passed their exams doesn't make them great Masters...that comes with many years experience and you never stop learning.

 

With the rush of building cruise ships one after the other so fast in recent years, the urge to make more Masters has been a priority, and the temptation would have been there to fast track individuals who have the right training, passed the right exams and worked perfectly fine under mentorship...but when it comes to "going solo" have been found to be inadequate.

 

Schettino appears to be such a case.

 

He was a Safety Officer on a ship that I sailed aboard in 2008 and again in 2010...he "appeared" competant but then in that level he probably was cos he wasn't making any "final" decisions as such, he reported to the Master.

 

He passed his exams, played the right tunes as/when required and impressed his mentor's enough to be promoted in a relatively short space of time. He was deemed "Master material".

 

But then when he WAS made Master, cracks started to appear....such as the leaving Marseille in full Mistral storm 3 weeks before the ultimate error of judgement aboard Concordia.

 

Whisperings and mumblings from other crew about him being flighty and a risk taker...sailing the ship like it was a Ferrari.

 

So...the question is why these very valid observations by his peers were either ignored or went unreported to management...was it a case of "well, he'll calm down eventually, he is a new master, the novelty will go soon enough"...."bah...no worries...he hasn't damaged the ship or hurt anyone, we ahev all taken risks...don't worry about it".

 

Had these indiscretions by him been noted and acted upon, then chances are we would not be having this concersation now, Concordia would still be in service and all would be fine and dandy with the world.

 

But they were not taken notice of and a man who on paper had all the right qualifications and all the right levels of enthusiasm and respect from those around him was allowed to go on his merry way and it ended up in tragedy.

 

He was fast tracked....how many other Masters have been fast tracked....not just in Costa but industry wide...how many more Schettino's are there out there...you can bet your sweet life there will be others and it is only a matter of time before another Master with all the right credentials on paper but who is mentally and physically unable to carry the responsibility required by a Master.

 

The maritime unions are welcoming the new safety policies but they want more...they want alot more than lip service and a little bit of mascara to make the cruise industry "look" the part.

 

You can train a man or woman to have the finest qualifications and credentials that make them the highest of the high in their profession....but if that person does not have the mental and physical capacity to do the job right and to carry the responsibility to its fullest extent, then all the qualifications and credentials are worthless.

 

The only way to find out if that man or woman is "the right stuff" is to have them slowly work up through the ranks, have them checked out, have their abilities under pressure measured and watch them evolve from just another officer to someone who can mentally and physically take the responsibility onto their shoulders even under the worst of circumstances.

 

This is where Schettino failed abysmally....and his promotions leading to Master should not have happened, he was totally unready for the responsibility. He was fine when he could pass the buck but when the buck stopped at him, he collapsed.

 

And there is no way on this earth that he is the only Master who has the potential to collapse when everything falls apart.

 

It is not a fault of his training per se...more a case of promotion and fast tracking without truly knowing the capabilities of that individual...he looked the part, he passed the exams but that does not make him a Master in the true sense.

[SomeBeach]

Look CS, even if we take your dissertations and agree with them about the safety and how the Captain brought them to the attention of everyone, he is still responsible for what happened.

If his book is going to claim that because his ship was not 100% up to par, then it's even worse for him that he took it so close to the island.

If his book is going to claim that Costa required or even just let these salutes happen while he "knew" it wasn't safe, them shame on him for not speaking up to TPTB. The same holds true if he was aware of any inefficient training for crew members or ship protocol.

In other words, it's too late for him to "act" all innocent by telling his story and time for him to man up.

His ego, daring, inattention to duty, and/or stupidity caused the accident. No matter what he claims, he is responsible for 32 people losing their lives. He admits as much on the Bridge tape, he f'd up.

[SomeBeach]

Ken, thanks for the latest pix.

I was at the Giglio website and found an article about the damage done to the island itself when they had that huge storm a few weeks ago. Early estimates have damages over 4 million from all the rain/winds.

As strong as that storm was, I guess it was a real good test of the stabilizing efforts on Concordia.

I'll be away for a few weeks as I travel to the Christmas Markets in Germany and Salzburg, Austria. I may not post much whilst I'm away but I will be checking in for reports.

[GMCOLT]

I have been reading this thread for months. You all have many interesting thoughts.

I have been in the safety profession for 30 years. I have also had the chance to observe what one of Costa's competitors do in the area of safety. That cruise line practices what it preaches to 100% of the crew.

First of all-most accidents often show a pattern of "faults" that lead up to the event. These can be human and mechainical. Failure to stop the patterns resulsts in the accident.

Here from what I have read this master showed a pattern of unsafe behavior with regard to operation of his vessel. The company should have been in a position to correct this, but failed to for reasons only known to them.

His failure to manage the emergency he created is without a doubt a disgrace.

However, the industry needs to learn from this with regard to accountability, training and holding realistic drills. Here is a question:

How many cruiselines have actually conducted a full scale vessel evacuation drill? Morgan Stanley did before 911 and that saved hundreds of their employees in the south tower.

[balf]

I think the points you make are all valid. The situation in a real emergency is very different to the pretend drills with "corridor guides" directing disabled passengers to the lifts to get to the boat deck. And still not enough has been done to make safety "our major concern" as every captain states on every boat drill I have been on over the years.

 

David.

[Uniall]

As a former safety professional with the Occupational Safety & Health Administration for 3 years, I have concluded there is only one way to prevent another Concordia disaster.

 

No one will be allowed to board a cruise ship as crew member or passenger unless they provide proof of completion of a 100 hour maritime safety course provided by a certified maritime safety training academy.

 

To receive your online safety instruction and certificate of completion from the comfort of your own home for the low introductory cost of only $25 per hour:

 

Email: UnialMaritimeSafetyInstitute@WorryFreeSailings.com

Edited November 26, 2012 by Uniall

[CostaSmurfette]

However, the industry needs to learn from this with regard to accountability, training and holding realistic drills. Here is a question:

How many cruiselines have actually conducted a full scale vessel evacuation drill? Morgan Stanley did before 911 and that saved hundreds of their employees in the south tower.

 

Having a full capacity drill would be the ideal plan...however...as with airlines there again lies a flaw.

 

An airliner is expected to be evacuated within 90 seconds and on occasions when a real emergency occurs, such as the China Airlines flight 120 at Okinawa in 2007, that 90 second timeline works to perfection.

 

The problem with the 90 second evacuation timing is that when the timeline was originally set and subsequently practiced on a regular basis by all airlines, they use a plane load of crew dressed in tracksuits and trainers, no duty free or hand luggage. So as much as the evacuation drill is real, it is far from being realistic since there is no real pressure to get off the plane, no anxiety, everyone knows that it is JUST a drill.

 

So if you then shift that exercise to a cruise ship, organise a full evacuation drill using all boats and rafts and with a full compliment of "pax" and crew, you are inevitably going to get a similar scenario to that of a full practice drill currently carried out on a plane...relatively orderly, no panic, no confusion, no excess baggage, no-one running back to their cabins to get things, people using elevators and so forth.

 

Some might say that a full capacity drill is not practical on a ship with 4000+ people on board....and it certainly would not be realistic either unless the ship was allowed to tilt over using ballast to ensure that one side of the lifeboat selection was essentially null and void...or some other obstacle was placed in the way of the "pax" and crew getting off....as was the case with Concordia.

 

That said, last week a full capacity drill was done on a ferry in the Baltic...granted no pax but the entire crew were shown how to use the newly fitted liferafts that have tubes to fall down from the boat deck to the raft below. Several crew broke arms and legs whilst going down the shute into the raft and the drill was called off.

 

So ideally the full evacuation would be something to consider, however the sheer practicality side of things precludes any real chance of it happening anytime soon....not to mention that, as with the ferry last week, even drills can go wrong and having crew and/or pax injured during the drill would be very costly both in time and compensation.

[balf]

Of course there are limits to how far you can go on safety. There are many safety improvements that could be brought in now, without impacting on the passengers in any way. I have never seen a crew exercise where half a dozen wheelchair passengers present themselves to be carried up the stairs to the boat deck, but that would be the situation in a real emergency.

 

And of course one of the finest safety measures would be to stop employing idiots as captains!!

 

David.

[Uniall]

Of course there are limits to how far you can go on safety. There are many safety improvements that could be brought in now, without impacting on the passengers in any way. I have never seen a crew exercise where half a dozen wheelchair passengers present themselves to be carried up the stairs to the boat deck, but that would be the situation in a real emergency.

 

And of course one of the finest safety measures would be to stop employing idiots as captains!!

 

David.

 

Dave

 

Don't forget to enroll in my "elective" course: "How to guarantee yourself a spot on a lifeboat". It's only an additional $100 but we give a 20% Cruise Critic discount. :D

 

John

[Ken711]

The Micoperi 30 platform seems to have left the Concordia site, as it not in view via the web cam.

[CostaSmurfette]

Of course there are limits to how far you can go on safety. There are many safety improvements that could be brought in now, without impacting on the passengers in any way. I have never seen a crew exercise where half a dozen wheelchair passengers present themselves to be carried up the stairs to the boat deck, but that would be the situation in a real emergency.

 

And of course one of the finest safety measures would be to stop employing idiots as captains!!

 

David.

 

Several posts back I suggested that perhaps those who have disabilities or who are elderly/infirm be treated as if the drill was a real emergency...as you say, be met by their allocated crew as per current SOLAS and carried up or down stairs to their respective muster stations/lifeboats. But then I was greeted with derision for suggesting such a thing....despite the fact that if cruise lines did introduce this system into their drills, not only would it allow those pax to be aquainted with the crew and vice versa, but it would enable those pax to be aware of what to expect should a real emergency happen. By experiencing such actions, the fear of the unknown element would be eliminated almost completely, albeit granted that they would still be understandably fearful as that is only natural and to be expected but they would also know what will be done to help them and by who.

 

As for the idiot captains...well...if someone with the Master's ticket comes to an employer with a good (on paper) track record and references...there is no way of telling as to the mental or physical capabilities of that person. On paper they are perfect for the job...but in reality....? No guarantees on that without extensive psychological work-ups being done on a regular basis and even that won't weed out all of the bad apples.

 

There is no hard and fast way to find a bad captain...until the chips are down and they perform their duties abysmally. You can train them to be the best but that does not ever guarantee that they will not crumble under pressure.

[watertheodds]

Living life is risky. I believe a bit of personal responsibility is important and in order for everyone. When or if I am disabled and plan to continue travel I will arm myself and seek out the knowledge necessary to ease my mind as to how best to handle an emergency in my current condition or for anyone that I am responsible for in my care. Saftey measures are in place and available on every form of mass transportation along with instructions and personnel that SHOULD be able to help you. Am I aware that other passengers may not make these observations? Hell yes. I repeat - living life is risky. What is not acceptable is the person in charge taking unnecessary risks with their passengers for their own personal gain - whatever that may be. If that is proven to be true and there are casualties then it is a crime and persons and corporations must be punished. That will be what ultimately protects us, cause and effect. It is impossible to cover every possible scenerio and protect every passenger - living life is risky.

[Uniall]

Living life is risky. I believe a bit of personal responsibility is important and in order for everyone. When or if I am disabled and plan to continue travel I will arm myself and seek out the knowledge necessary to ease my mind as to how best to handle an emergency in my current condition or for anyone that I am responsible for in my care. Saftey measures are in place and available on every form of mass transportation along with instructions and personnel that SHOULD be able to help you. Am I aware that other passengers may not make these observations? Hell yes. I repeat - living life is risky. What is not acceptable is the person in charge taking unnecessary risks with their passengers for their own personal gain - whatever that may be. If that is proven to be true and there are casualties then it is a crime and persons and corporations must be punished. That will be what ultimately protects us, cause and effect. It is impossible to cover every possible scenerio and protect every passenger - living life is risky.

 

WaterTheOdds you have just proven that one of the last bastions of common sense is Oklahoma which has not been tainted by neo modern sophistry.

Edited November 27, 2012 by Uniall

[balf]

Dave

 

"How to guarantee yourself a spot on a lifeboat".

John

 

Would this come with a Money back guarantee?

 

David

[Uniall]

Would this come with a Money back guarantee?

 

David

 

LOL................... No but it will give you a "fighting" chance to not be denied a seat in the lifeboat by 20 something thugs...(as happened on the Concordia)

[sidari]

Coming to you from Uncle Sam's backyard in Florida, it seems that the cruise industry is still not yet singing from the same hymn sheet! Our ship left Genova on the 11th of November and carried out a muster drill informing passengers by public address the time and places etc. On the 12th when the ship left from Barcelona with more new passengers no announcements were made and those passengers were expected to read the daily ships newspaper in order to find out when it would happen and where! The fact that over 100 people did not attend shows that nothing has been learned from Concordia apart from the fact that the Emergency lighting was on continually. It would be interesting to know if this is now the norm on other cruise lines.

[Uniall]

Coming to you from Uncle Sam's backyard in Florida, it seems that the cruise industry is still not yet singing from the same hymn sheet! Our ship left Genova on the 11th of November and carried out a muster drill informing passengers by public address the time and places etc. On the 12th when the ship left from Barcelona with more new passengers no announcements were made and those passengers were expected to read the daily ships newspaper in order to find out when it would happen and where! The fact that over 100 people did not attend shows that nothing has been learned from Concordia apart from the fact that the Emergency lighting was on continually. It would be interesting to know if this is now the norm on other cruise lines.

 

Sid

 

Which cruise line and ship ?????

[CostaSmurfette]

Sid

 

Which cruise line and ship ?????

 

IIRC Sidari was aboard MSC Poesia.

 

Oh an just a thought, Uniall, since you are slightly hung up on the bad apple captain....maybe you can, with your experience, give us your insight on how to spot a bad apple....

 

Chicago in the 1980's made the worldwide media due to having several bad apples within its police force...corruption was the byword...so...just how do you tell a good cop and a bad cop just by looking at them, they have the same training as each other, they pass the same entry exams as each other and have the same credentials as each other....

 

But how exactly is the bloke in the street meant to figure out which would give you a helping hand and which would only give you a helping hand so long as you paid him/her a couple hundred dollars....did they advertise, perhaps?

 

Just as with the bent coppers....having a bad apple captain is not easy to see until he or she gets into difficulties and then you find out exactly who the bad apple is...don't you? ;)

[Uniall]

IIRC Sidari was aboard MSC Poesia.

 

Oh an just a thought, Uniall, since you are slightly hung up on the bad apple captain....maybe you can, with your experience, give us your insight on how to spot a bad apple....

 

Chicago in the 1980's made the worldwide media due to having several bad apples within its police force...corruption was the byword...so...just how do you tell a good cop and a bad cop just by looking at them, they have the same training as each other, they pass the same entry exams as each other and have the same credentials as each other....

 

But how exactly is the bloke in the street meant to figure out which would give you a helping hand and which would only give you a helping hand so long as you paid him/her a couple hundred dollars....did they advertise, perhaps?

 

Just as with the bent coppers....having a bad apple captain is not easy to see until he or she gets into difficulties and then you find out exactly who the bad apple is...don't you? ;)

 

Well for one thing, you can start by weeding out skirt chasers. Once you spot a "hound" you know where his priorties will probably be and whether his profession or hormones will take up the bulk of his time and attention.:eek:

 

Oh, and by the way, yes you could tell the good cops from the bad cops in Chicago's "Summerdale" scandal (the neighborhood name of the police station). Every one knew who were the tarnished badges were but the code of silence was pervasive. That stems from the union mentality of the worker VS management and collective bargaining work rules that make it next to impossible to fire a bad employee until after they've been convicted of a crime. It's not just cops, it's most government workers. I think we got most of these ideas from Socialist Europe. :rolleyes:

[Mike.Minh]

The Micoperi 30 platform seems to have left the Concordia site, as it not in view via the web cam.

 

According to vesselfinder.com Micoperi 30 is currently at a holding position near the mainland.

Use MMSI: 247219100, IMO: 8757831 to check out yourself. Or use this link:

http://www.vesselfinder.com/?imo=8757831#

 

Many vessel tracking websites are a few days behind, this one appears to be up to date. YMMV

[balf]

[quote name='sidari'] The fact that over 100 people did not attend shows that nothing has been learned from Concordia apart from the fact that the Emergency lighting was on  continually. It would be interesting to know if this is now the norm on other cruise lines.[/quote]

 

Don't worry about it, remember, "life is risky"

 

David.

[watertheodds]

 

Don't worry about it, remember, "life is risky"

 

David.

 

 

Life is risky and while your slam was "cute" it is not in context of what I wrote. If you are a person that takes some personal responsibility for their own safety by looking for the nearest exit on aircraft, choosing a cruise line based on a compatable view of expectations and not price point, checks on where lifejackets are and muster stations then that is not a person that is free from worry. But perhaps you will enjoy your vacation more by realizing that you have taken the basic steps of travel. Personally I don't want to wander around a ship with a critical eye on everything someone else is doing wrong and grilling employees.

[Cruising Ken]

Could have moved off due to the poor weather.

[balf]

Life is risky and while your slam was "cute" it is not in context of what I wrote. If you are a person that takes some personal responsibility for their own safety by looking for the nearest exit on aircraft, choosing a cruise line based on a compatable view of expectations and not price point, checks on where lifejackets are and muster stations then that is not a person that is free from worry. But perhaps you will enjoy your vacation more by realizing that you have taken the basic steps of travel. Personally I don't want to wander around a ship with a critical eye on everything someone else is doing wrong and grilling employees.

 

You are assuming that the sole responsibility for your own personal safety rests with you, this is not so. Of course we should all look after ourselves in any situation but the providers of public transport have a responsibility to provide as safe a system as possible. You obviously think they are, I and others think not. We must agree to differ.

 

If you board an aeroplane that is not safe to fly and it falls out of the sky no amount of looking around will prevent that happening.

 

And it is worth remembering that the worst colour for highlighting on boards such as this is red. Simple underlining or caps would be kinder.

 

David.