Concordia News: Please Post Here

[CostaSmurfette]

I don't answer questions that are irrelevant or immaterial to the issue at hand. Schittino's guilt does not rise or fall on the results of an in depth investigation. His criminal guilt is based upon his:

gross negligence in ordering the ship close to shore on an ego boosting lark for the benefit of people on shore that set in motion a train of events that killed 32 people.

dereliction of duty in abandoning his post which condemned passengers to their doom.

The complicity or failures on the part of others serves ony to determine their guilt or innocence, not the guilt of Captain Death.

 

This is even more true in Codal Law countries where they tend to work backwards from the results to the causative conduct unlike Common Law which tends to work forward from the causative conduct to the results. While an over simplification, it explains why in Codal countries the odds of being found guilty incease by the greater the damage or harm done. (No Harm, No Foul - Big Harm, Big Foul)

 

Maybe you should consider acting where you could get a roles to work out your secret desire to be a lawyer.:p

 

Excuse me sunshine...but since you refuse to accept that not only others have a hand in what happened, and that you also refuse to accept outside forces (ie the ship) had a hand in what happened...then that leaves me no alternative but to consider you in the same league as an ambulance chaser lawyer looking for a big fat commission off the deaths of the 32 passengers and crew.

 

Your refusal/inability to open your mind and stop focussing on the action or inaction of ONE person, surely shows that your alterior motives have nothing to do with finding the truth and the discussion thereof and more to the desire to line your own bank balance.

 

You come across not as a lawyer who wants to prevent this tragedy from ever happening again, but as a lawyer trying to gain financial gain from it. And that is deeply insulting to the memories of those lost that night in this accident.

 

Had you any interest in saving lives from a similar tragedy, you would accept the potentially wider aspects of what happened and the ramifications to the cruise industry as a whole.

[Tonka's Skipper]

Good Day Everyone!

 

Boy you folks have been going hard and heavy the last few days!!!!

 

I have made my position quite clear...............there are 3 major responsible individuals/groups.

 

1. The most responsible is the Master, both professionally and criminally due to his actions, lack of actions, before, during and after.

 

2. The Bridge Officer or Officers, whether they told the Master what he should have been aware or not.

 

3. The executive/managing officials of Costa/ Carnival Inc. for operating policies and design of the vessel.

 

Now I have a marine background as some of you have and been involved in 3 ship fires, one major, a minor bottom touching or 2 and other marine casualties and these situations can be pretty scary.

 

But for now all of us are comfortable in our homes, reviewing all the true or untrue tidbits of facts we are getting and offering opinions on everything, so I would suggest we remember a little saying I know of:

 

 

*IF FEAR CAN FIND THE COWARD IN ONE OF US, WHY NOT IN ALL OF US*

 

Just something to think about as we type.;)

 

 

AKK

Edited August 11, 2012 by Tonka's Skipper

[DocF]

Regardless of anything else, the Captain of a ship is the sole master of its destiny. With that position comes a large sign that should be worn on a string about one's neck that says, "The buck stops here". The Captain of any ship that is wrecked is responsible, even if another officer is totally derelict in his actions.

 

This is not a recent concept; it dates back to the time of Columbus.

 

Doc

[Uniall]

Excuse me sunshine...but since you refuse to accept that not only others have a hand in what happened, and that you also refuse to accept outside forces (ie the ship) had a hand in what happened...then that leaves me no alternative but to consider you in the same league as an ambulance chaser lawyer looking for a big fat commission off the deaths of the 32 passengers and crew.

 

Your refusal/inability to open your mind and stop focussing on the action or inaction of ONE person, surely shows that your alterior motives have nothing to do with finding the truth and the discussion thereof and more to the desire to line your own bank balance.

 

You come across not as a lawyer who wants to prevent this tragedy from ever happening again, but as a lawyer trying to gain financial gain from it. And that is deeply insulting to the memories of those lost that night in this accident.

 

Had you any interest in saving lives from a similar tragedy, you would accept the potentially wider aspects of what happened and the ramifications to the cruise industry as a whole.

 

To quote one of the few "realistic" TV cops (from the, sadly, discontinued series: "NYPD Blue) Andy Sipowitz: "My first priority is to put the scum bags behind bars, so they can't do it again."

Edited August 11, 2012 by Uniall

[cruiserfanfromct]

now that a similar course was set for reasons still to be discovered (but subject to more supposition and speculation that anything concrete) all went pearshaped in january...which could easily have happened in august when it was "officially given the nod to carry out" instead....does not negate it from being "bad practice".

 

How can anyone differentiate tween a bad practice that did not go wrong (by chance/luck/divine intervention) and the almost exact same bad practice that did go wrong?

 

Just as the doors being left open on roro's...done all the time, but does not make it right.

 

august sail-by = daylight, summer, benefiting many people, purpose of festivities, approved by costa

 

january sail-by = nighttime, winter, just benefitting a few employees and an unathorized female companion on bridge, not officially approved by costa

[DocF]

Sorry I will not contribute to the other thread.

 

I cannot say I blame you on that. It has deteriorated into a name calling spitefest.

 

Doc

[Uniall]

Good Day Everyone!

 

Boy you folks have been going hard and heavy the last few days!!!!

 

I have made my position quite clear...............there are 3 major responsible individuals/groups.

 

1. The most responsible is the Master' date=' both professionally and criminally due to his actions, lack of actions, before, during and after.

 

2. The Bridge Officer or Officers, whether they told the Master what he should have been aware or not.

 

3. The executive/managing officials of Costa/ Carnival Inc. for operating policies and design of the vessel.

 

Now I have a marine background as some of you have and been involved in 3 ship fires, one major, a minor bottom touching or 2 and other marine casualties and these situations can be pretty scary.

 

But for now all of us are comfortable in our homes, reviewing all the true or untrue tidbits of facts we are getting and offering opinions on everything, so I would suggest we remember a little saying I know of:

 

 

*IF FEAR CAN FIND THE COWARD IN ONE OF US, WHY NOT IN ALL OF US*

 

Just something to think about as we type.;)

 

 

AKK[/quote']

 

Skipper

 

I agree with your list of "suspects"..

 

My answer to your question is:

 

Those of us who have already been tested and confronted fear, know we are not cowards.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Uniall

[cruiserfanfromct]

1. Ship sets sail on a preprogramed route

2. Ship deviates from route

3. Ship hits rock

4. Ship runs aground and lists

5. 32 people die

 

It's NOT complicated people! Where it gets complex is whose FAULT it was:

 

1. Schettino alone

2. Schettino and first mate

3. Schettino and all officers

4. Costa

5. Schettino and Costa

6. Schettino, first mate and Costa

7. Schettino, all officers and Costa

 

Then

 

If 2, 3, 5, 6, 7 are chosen what percentage of culpability applies. How is culpability assigned?

 

I know the courts will determine but this is a discussion board.

 

Edit: OOps Tonka, posted this before I saw your post - think you answered this post with that one.

Edited August 11, 2012 by cruiserfanfromct

[clive and anne]

Thanks for that

Just hope they dont come onto this thread Doc

Clive

[SomeBeach]

Clive, I tend to agree with you that they got out what they needed to with the funnel.

While it is a bit frustrating, we really couldn't see much that was going on with the port side, even with Salute. We'll just have to grin and bear it cuz something is better than nothing. ;)

[clive and anne]

Our glasses are half full Micki

 

Clive

[MorganMars]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/marlborough-express/news/4664013/25-years-on-ship-pilot-still-silent

 

 

The Ministry of Transport held a preliminary inquiry immediately after the sinking, led by Captain Steve Ponsford.

The Express reported on March 7, 1986, that the inquiry found Mr Jamison was responsible, but Mr Ponsford would not say what explanation Mr Jamison gave him for trying to take the ship through the passage.

 

"All the inquiry had to establish was the facts of the sinking. It was not our role to go into the reasons for Captain Jamison's actions and I'm not a psychologist," the Express quoted Mr Ponsford as saying at the time.

 

The Marlborough Harbour Board and the ship's owners came to an out-of-court settlement for damages.

 

Mr Ponsford recommended that no formal investigation be held, which was backed by then transport minister Richard Prebble.

 

Mr Prebble said on the 20th anniversary of the sinking that he had written to the Russians to offer an inquiry, but was told it was not necessary.

 

The ministry also wrote to Mr Jamison and suggested "very strongly" that he surrender his pilot's licence, which he did.

 

Mr Jamison was not charged because New Zealand-registered pilots working on foreign ships could not be prosecuted. The law has since been changed.

 

Mr Jamison later applied for and was re-issued his pilot's licence. He worked for Strait Shipping for a decade before retiring in 2001.

 

The Mikhail Lermontov's captain, Vladislav Vorobyov, who was not on the bridge when the ship hit the rocks, was given a suspended four-year jail sentence after an inquiry in the former Soviet Union.

 

The ship lies on its side at the bottom of Port Gore, 33 metres below the surface, and has become a popular diving attraction.

 

I have been trying to find out what happened to the Captain, Pilot and bridge officers from the Lermontov in respect to accountability, but have drawn a blank as to whether or not they faced any form of legal punishment.

As to any legal action taken against the owners, operators, crew or the errant Pilot of Lermontov...especially in view that a crewman died and many others hurt...is unknown. That is a pity since it might act as a guide to possible outcomes this time around.

[SomeBeach]

Our glasses are half full Micki

 

Clive

 

Exactly! :D

[cruiserfanfromct]

Back to the Concordia, here is a very interesting and detailed report by Captain Bill Doherty, Director of Maritime Relations, Nexus Consulting.

 

Costa Concordia and the Human Element

What can we learn from the Costa Concordia?

Critical Incident Management Systems (CIMS) are only as good as the human

element(s) involved.

 

http://ncga.us/assets/Costa_Concordia_and_the_Human_Element.pdf

[Ply474]

Update, I dont know much about the politics, but The updates on the salvage of Concordia are going to be very good. I hope the Giglio web cam stays up. today they brought in the massive crane. The are half done removing the funnel and sorrounding areas. The Last salute is long gone with their web cam, but hopefully there are still doing the time lapse. I just wanted to share with everyone and if its already been mentioned, my appologies.

 

[cruiserfanfromct]

Update, I dont know much about the politics, but The updates on the salvage of Concordia are going to be very good. I hope the Giglio web cam stays up. today they brought in the massive crane. The are half done removing the funnel and sorrounding areas. The Last salute is long gone with their web cam, but hopefully there are still doing the time lapse. I just wanted to share with everyone and if its already been mentioned, my appologies.

Thanks for sharing Ply474. Glad to see there will be positive progress. I did read there was friction between Codacons and the mayor of Giglio but wasn't aware of the politics between the local authorities and Titan-Micoperi but it doesn't surprise me -- it's Italy. I heard the operation will take roughly 12 months, have you heard different?

[Ply474]

The only thing I have heard is that they are on schedule and Titan is confident that they will refloat by December (as long as the weather permits) The external pieces that they will be addiing are already being constructed at Fincantari yards.

The Rock is long gone in three pieces, one piece is going to be a memorial at Giglio Island. They have already welded up the port side windows down the legnth of the liner. They are going to patch the hole up tight as well. Thats the best I know of.....

[Uniall]

Thanks for sharing Ply474. Glad to see there will be positive progress. I did read there was friction between Codacons and the mayor of Giglio but wasn't aware of the politics between the local authorities and Titan-Micoperi but it doesn't surprise me -- it's Italy. I heard the operation will take roughly 12 months, have you heard different?

 

The only thing I have heard is that they are on schedule and Titan is confident that they will refloat by December (as long as the weather permits) The external pieces that they will be addiing are already being constructed at Fincantari yards.

The Rock is long gone in three pieces, one piece is going to be a memorial at Giglio Island. They have already welded up the port side windows down the legnth of the liner. They are going to patch the hole up tight as well. Thats the best I know of.....

 

 

Purely from a refloat, remove and restore point of view, it's too bad that Schittino didn't do his fly by salute for pals in Messina instead of Giglio. There would be no problems with local government or Codacon or Greenies or the like. :eek:

 

The Godfather would have hired his nephew Guido's salvage company and the job would be done. :p

 

We wouldn't have to worry about investigations or trials either. The Godfather would have determined the guilty and they would just disappear.:rolleyes:

Edited August 11, 2012 by Uniall

[CostaSmurfette]

Mikhail Lermontov, 1986...Sea Diamond, 2007....

 

Two cruise ship sinkings that on paper should not have happened...Mikhail Lermontov cost the life of a crewman, Sea Diamond cost the lives of two passengers.....

 

Concordia was another accident that shouldn't have happened if past lessons had been learnt.....

 

How long will it be before complacency creeps back into the industry and another cruise ship is lost whilst "scenic cruising"....

 

Wouldn't be surprised if once the hull is removed from Giglio, that memories dim very quickly...whilst she is still there languishing on the rocks, she is a constant reminder of folly...but once no trace is left of her....she'll just join the list of CTL's and she'll gradually fade from memory

 

Til the next time...

[Tonka's Skipper]

I would think that they will remove the stack and inner exhaust pipes etc.

Anything sticking up could be in the way and cause a problem when they are setting the rigging to roll her upright.

 

AKK

[CostaSmurfette]

These might see life again one day, they have no damage to speak of, so could be recertified for use on another ship...lifeboats and tenders have been known to be swapped across fleets in the past.

 

They are sat in wasteland on Giglio, the photo's taken in early July.

[CostaSmurfette]

This was one of the most popular areas of Concordia, probably the most photographed part of the entire ship...and an image held close by those who prefer to remember her in better days when they cruised aboard her.

 

It's one of Joe Farcus's better design statements.....it's really quite amazing just how many people literally loved the ship, she was immensely popular...she and those who sailed on her make sure that she, along with what happened to her and her passengers & crew, will not be forgotten.

 

A fitting memory of Concordia, her once stunning atrium display. Never got to sail on her myself, but I do have friends who worked aboard her and freinds who cruised aboard her and despite her many foibles, warts and diva behaviour, she was a favourite for many people.

[sidari]

"gross negligence in ordering the ship close to shore on an ego boosting lark for the benefit of people on shore that set in motion a train of events that killed 32 people."

 

Still no evidence to prove the above ie ordering the ship close to shore!

 

you do like to make things up.

 

To this day no one as yet has proof of why Concordia was half a mile off course !

[Uniall]

"gross negligence in ordering the ship close to shore on an ego boosting lark for the benefit of people on shore that set in motion a train of events that killed 32 people."

 

Still no evidence to prove the above ie ordering the ship close to shore!

 

you do like to make things up.

 

To this day no one as yet has proof of why Concordia was half a mile off course !

 

 

Are you back to arguing semantics?

 

There is no question and never has been a question that Captain Death, as Master of the Vessel, ordered the ship to do a fly by salute that nessarily took the ship closer to shore than

the planned route. That order set in motion the chain of events that caused the collision with the rock. If he had not ordered the ship to divert its planned course to do a sail by salute to one of his pals and recieve "atta boy back slaps" (I think you call them "Good Man") for his daring do, no one would have died.

 

You must have been over indulging with the Belgian swimming and cycling teams in London. Take some aspirin, get some sleep and rethink your post. LOL

Edited August 11, 2012 by Uniall

[sidari]

Uni ... take a look at this News video regarding the routes taken by Concordia, interesting to note that the claimed sailby of August 2011 as being in the Daylight by CT is clearly in the darkness!!

 

 

With regard to the Olympics .... not watched it have more interesting things to do and do not take aspirin.

 

Edited August 11, 2012 by sidari