Should I cancel my RIL Tour?

[azlove2cruise]

Help...now I'm thinking of canceling my RIL tour in Rome for our party of 5. Here's why:

1. We have 2 full days in Rome

2. We are already using RIL for an evening tour our first Sunday upon arrival that night.

3. We are now interested in the Underground colosseum tour which I read on these boards is now available for booking and includes a tour guide. RIL would just drop us off during our full day tour which we have booked with them for Day 1.

4. We want to use a different tour company on Day 2 in order to gain early access to the Sistine Chapel/Vatican which already includes the tour guide. We like the idea of no crowds. RIL would drop us off (they recommend 2pm tickets) and no guide unless we pay an additional 200EU, so the other tour company seemed a better bet to us because of the early access.

5. Same thing for Day 2...we want to use a different tour company for a tour of the crypts and catacombs that includes transportation and a tour guide (St. Clemente - 3 levels).

6. I've been in constant communication with Jany (and she keeps forgetting that we aren't doing the Vatican with them...probably overloaded or something, but she keeps mentioning it) to try to figure out the best way to maximize our "with the driver" time as it's an 8 hour tour that we're paying for. When I mention the above, she did say that it "would be hard to fill our time" and she mentioned sites like St. Peter's Basilica outside the walls and St. Clemente (but we're already doing that, too). And to just tell that driver what we're interested in and he'll arrange our tour for us...well we kinda want to know what our options are beforehand based on the gazillion tours they do with others.

7. Lastly, I had been warned by others (mostly DIY'ers, which we are not among the brave) that we don't need the driver, but it did sound really convenient and loads of folks highly recommend the tour and the experience, we figured we couldn't go wrong and don't mind spending the $. But, now I'm wondering if it really doesn't make sense based on what we want to see/do?

 

Am I missing something? We do have RIL booked for full day tours in Naples and Florence. We won't be canceling those or our transfers with them. But, maybe for Rome, we should cancel?

 

Thoughts?

[fabnfortysomething]

I think you've just answered your own question

 

if you dont need their services or will use an additional guide then why pay for services you dont need

[texancruzer]

I know they are "highly" recommended here but I just can't figure out why they feel they can charge so much more than other "highly" recommended tour companies. I have never used them (mainly because I found other tour companies that provided me with spectacular days for less) and I am sure they provide quality service. But why so much more $$$ ???? Hmmmm

 

Now, to your question..... I too think you already answered your own question. Rome is so very easy to walk and truthfully - that is part of the charm and experience. I know when we walk (and we walk a lot !) in Rome there have been times (mostly at night or to save a bit of time our first trip) we ended up just hopping a taxi...... but with 2 full days you will see all the major sites just as well by walking unless you have a site outside the historic area. So many are 1-2-3 next to each other....... and to take a bus/car etc you miss out on the wonderful pedestrian only streets. My favorite thing is to turn a corner and come across a small new piazza with a small fountain or obelisk or just an interesting antique store or ruin..... yep they are even sometimes under existing buildings ;) not to mention coming across a gelato store just when you were thinking one would be nice ..... in my opinion to truly get the real feel for Rome you need to walk around in it :D

[azlove2cruise]

Thank you for the quick feedback. I was hoping for some sort of reason(s) why the car/driver thing would still be worthwhile, but it really does seem foolish now since they just don't offer the 2 of my must do's the way I want to experience them. And, apprently I'd be paying them just to wait for us. No, we aren't going outside the walls (to my knowledge). Appian Way might be outside the walls, but the tour we'll be taking does provide transportation, so that could be why. Anyway, I'll break up what we want to see over our 2 days, then. Hopefully the hotel shuttle will help a little with transportation and that finding clean restrooms will be fairly easy. I'm traveling with 2 elderly parents, so we'll see if they go along with the plan sans driver. Are taxi's readily available without a queue? Just flag them down like in NYC?

[D4]

Thank you for the quick feedback. I was hoping for some sort of reason(s) why the car/driver thing would still be worthwhile, but it really does seem foolish now since they just don't offer the 2 of my must do's the way I want to experience them. And, apprently I'd be paying them just to wait for us. No, we aren't going outside the walls (to my knowledge). Appian Way might be outside the walls, but the tour we'll be taking does provide transportation, so that could be why. Anyway, I'll break up what we want to see over our 2 days, then. Hopefully the hotel shuttle will help a little with transportation and that finding clean restrooms will be fairly easy. I'm traveling with 2 elderly parents, so we'll see if they go along with the plan sans driver. Are taxi's readily available without a queue? Just flag them down like in NYC?

 

Taxis are readily available at taxi stands near the main tourist sites or you can call one or have your hotel or a restaurant call one for you. You can't just flag one down.

[Sue Dawson]

I did read the post about doing all of Rome in a day but we won't have quite that much time on our own. As a first timer in Europe, do you think it would be "easy" to take the train from the port into Rome and manage to see the Vatican, the Vatican museums, the Colliseum and have to walk around and see the fountain, stairs, etc. or as a first timer, should I sign up for a tour? In the Vatican, are their guides available there for say maybe 20 euros?

 

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

[chipmaster]

With two full days I'd DIY, or schedule seperate private like you already seem to.

 

I'm a big fan of RIL for the one day from port in and out as there is just so much to want to see and their turnkey driver/guide etc. is an efficient use of minimal time. As you note, they aren't the cheapest, sometimes you get something for paying more, sometimes not so much. At least with RIL they are a known quantity, for some that is important for others there are many cheaper options out there.

[texancruzer]

Thank you for the quick feedback. I was hoping for some sort of reason(s) why the car/driver thing would still be worthwhile, but it really does seem foolish now since they just don't offer the 2 of my must do's the way I want to experience them. And, apprently I'd be paying them just to wait for us. No, we aren't going outside the walls (to my knowledge). Appian Way might be outside the walls, but the tour we'll be taking does provide transportation, so that could be why. Anyway, I'll break up what we want to see over our 2 days, then. Hopefully the hotel shuttle will help a little with transportation and that finding clean restrooms will be fairly easy. I'm traveling with 2 elderly parents, so we'll see if they go along with the plan sans driver. Are taxi's readily available without a queue? Just flag them down like in NYC?

 

You will see many many elderly folks strolling in the evening especially. But again, if you find them tiring or it's hot......find the nearest taxi stand and hop in. They are reasonable for the short distances you are talking about.....a lot cheaper than RIL !!!!!

[shoesonfire]

I did read the post about doing all of Rome in a day but we won't have quite that much time on our own. As a first timer in Europe, do you think it would be "easy" to take the train from the port into Rome and manage to see the Vatican, the Vatican museums, the Colliseum and have to walk around and see the fountain, stairs, etc. or as a first timer, should I sign up for a tour? In the Vatican, are their guides available there for say maybe 20 euros?

 

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Yes, it's pretty easy -- just research and plan your day. After checking different online websites and wonderful Cruise Critic forums, we have decided to see as much as possible in Rome on our own. We have now planned to take the train BIRG ticket inc. train, metro & bus service, from Port to San Pietro Station near Vatican. We are reserving tickets to the 11 a.m. Vatican Museum, 19Euros without a guide, allowing us to move along at our own pace, visit the Sistine Chapel and the Basilica then attend the Scavi tour at l:45 p.m. which ends at 3. We hope to walk or take metro or bus to Piazza Navona, on to Spanish Steps, Trevi whatever we can fit into the rest of the day and take the train back to port. Here's a good link for travel tips: smartcruisetours dot com. If your cruise has an early 5 or 6 p.m. departure be sure to watch your time and schedule a train that gets you back in ample time. If the fast track train becomes available, that will cost a little more money but will perhaps offer a less stressful commute back & forth to Rome. Also the special bus from port to Rome and back takes a little longer but might give you peace of mind in case of transportation/rail strikes. Rome is a great city to just walk, wander and wonder. Enjoy!

[maryann ns]

Be sure to check out toms port guides and ron in rome (google). The train is easy. You will find others doing this and you can just follow along. You may find others on your cruise doing a DIY day and you could join them.

 

If you have done your homework and has someone who can read a map, you should be fine. Get off the ship ASAP and get to the train. Plan to take the second last train back to the port.

[Crusin6]

Thank you for the quick feedback. I was hoping for some sort of reason(s) why the car/driver thing would still be worthwhile, but it really does seem foolish now since they just don't offer the 2 of my must do's the way I want to experience them. And, apprently I'd be paying them just to wait for us. No, we aren't going outside the walls (to my knowledge). Appian Way might be outside the walls, but the tour we'll be taking does provide transportation, so that could be why. Anyway, I'll break up what we want to see over our 2 days, then. Hopefully the hotel shuttle will help a little with transportation and that finding clean restrooms will be fairly easy. I'm traveling with 2 elderly parents, so we'll see if they go along with the plan sans driver. Are taxi's readily available without a queue? Just flag them down like in NYC?

Actually your elderly are the exact reason you need the driver

[shareen3]

I will be in Rome next week for only 1 day and would LOVE to find the information out about the Tour Co. you are using that offers early access to the Sistine Chapel w/ tour guide :)

 

Help...now I'm thinking of canceling my RIL tour in Rome for our party of 5. Here's why:

1. We have 2 full days in Rome

2. We are already using RIL for an evening tour our first Sunday upon arrival that night.

3. We are now interested in the Underground colosseum tour which I read on these boards is now available for booking and includes a tour guide. RIL would just drop us off during our full day tour which we have booked with them for Day 1.

4. We want to use a different tour company on Day 2 in order to gain early access to the Sistine Chapel/Vatican which already includes the tour guide. We like the idea of no crowds. RIL would drop us off (they recommend 2pm tickets) and no guide unless we pay an additional 200EU, so the other tour company seemed a better bet to us because of the early access.

5. Same thing for Day 2...we want to use a different tour company for a tour of the crypts and catacombs that includes transportation and a tour guide (St. Clemente - 3 levels).

6. I've been in constant communication with Jany (and she keeps forgetting that we aren't doing the Vatican with them...probably overloaded or something, but she keeps mentioning it) to try to figure out the best way to maximize our "with the driver" time as it's an 8 hour tour that we're paying for. When I mention the above, she did say that it "would be hard to fill our time" and she mentioned sites like St. Peter's Basilica outside the walls and St. Clemente (but we're already doing that, too). And to just tell that driver what we're interested in and he'll arrange our tour for us...well we kinda want to know what our options are beforehand based on the gazillion tours they do with others.

7. Lastly, I had been warned by others (mostly DIY'ers, which we are not among the brave) that we don't need the driver, but it did sound really convenient and loads of folks highly recommend the tour and the experience, we figured we couldn't go wrong and don't mind spending the $. But, now I'm wondering if it really doesn't make sense based on what we want to see/do?

 

Am I missing something? We do have RIL booked for full day tours in Naples and Florence. We won't be canceling those or our transfers with them. But, maybe for Rome, we should cancel?

 

Thoughts?

[azlove2cruise]

I will be in Rome next week for only 1 day and would LOVE to find the information out about the Tour Co. you are using that offers early access to the Sistine Chapel w/ tour guide :)

 

Sure. Here you go:

http://www.walksofitaly.com/tour_bookings/tour_listing/6/6

[azlove2cruise]

Help...now I'm thinking of canceling my RIL tour in Rome for our party of 5. Here's why:

1. We have 2 full days in Rome

2. We are already using RIL for an evening tour our first Sunday upon arrival that night.

3. We are now interested in the Underground colosseum tour which I read on these boards is now available for booking and includes a tour guide. RIL would just drop us off during our full day tour which we have booked with them for Day 1.

4. We want to use a different tour company on Day 2 in order to gain early access to the Sistine Chapel/Vatican which already includes the tour guide. We like the idea of no crowds. RIL would drop us off (they recommend 2pm tickets) and no guide unless we pay an additional 200EU, so the other tour company seemed a better bet to us because of the early access.

5. Same thing for Day 2...we want to use a different tour company for a tour of the crypts and catacombs that includes transportation and a tour guide (St. Clemente - 3 levels).

6. I've been in constant communication with Jany (and she keeps forgetting that we aren't doing the Vatican with them...probably overloaded or something, but she keeps mentioning it) to try to figure out the best way to maximize our "with the driver" time as it's an 8 hour tour that we're paying for. When I mention the above, she did say that it "would be hard to fill our time" and she mentioned sites like St. Peter's Basilica outside the walls and St. Clemente (but we're already doing that, too). And to just tell that driver what we're interested in and he'll arrange our tour for us...well we kinda want to know what our options are beforehand based on the gazillion tours they do with others.

7. Lastly, I had been warned by others (mostly DIY'ers, which we are not among the brave) that we don't need the driver, but it did sound really convenient and loads of folks highly recommend the tour and the experience, we figured we couldn't go wrong and don't mind spending the $. But, now I'm wondering if it really doesn't make sense based on what we want to see/do?

 

Am I missing something? We do have RIL booked for full day tours in Naples and Florence. We won't be canceling those or our transfers with them. But, maybe for Rome, we should cancel?

 

Thoughts?

 

I'm back to post a follow-up to my original quest for help to let you know what we finally ended up doing:

 

1. We have 2 full days in Rome

Yep...we arrived Sunday morning, took RIL xfers to the Rome Cavalieri (a bit far from everything, but really nice hotel with shuttle)

2. We are already using RIL for an evening tour our first Sunday upon arrival that night.

Nope. We cancelled this tour and decided to take the HOHO (hop-on/hop-off) bus instead. We figured we'd be pretty jet lagged and tired, but at the same time wanted to get out there and start seeing Rome without much of an agenda or commitment. Hoho bus was cheap and would provide the overview we wanted. We had no idea what we were seeing, but hey...we would have a guide the next day anyway.

3. We are now interested in the Underground colosseum tour which I read on these boards is now available for booking and includes a tour guide. RIL would just drop us off during our full day tour which we have booked with them for Day 1.

Yep. This is exactly what we did. We did our all day RIL tour on Monday with Nick (fabulous driver/tour guide with a nice sense of humour, btw) and had him drop us off in time for our Underground colosseum tour. I booked these tickets myself separately. Also an amazing tour, and one of my hubby's favorites. Not everyone gets to see the underground, and we were the only group down there, so that was really cool. Then we got to see the top tier, too.

4. We want to use a different tour company on Day 2 in order to gain early access to the Sistine Chapel/Vatican which already includes the tour guide. We like the idea of no crowds. RIL would drop us off (they recommend 2pm tickets) and no guide unless we pay an additional 200EU, so the other tour company seemed a better bet to us because of the early access.

Yep - we used a different tour company, Walks of Italy, which included a tour guide and a small group of 12 only. We got early access into the Vatican and had it all to ourselves, it seemed, prior to the hoards of folks who came in behind us.

5. Same thing for Day 2...we want to use a different tour company for a tour of the crypts and catacombs that includes transportation and a tour guide (St. Clemente - 3 levels).

Yep..we used Walks of Italy.

6. I've been in constant communication with Jany (and she keeps forgetting that we aren't doing the Vatican with them...probably overloaded or something, but she keeps mentioning it) to try to figure out the best way to maximize our "with the driver" time as it's an 8 hour tour that we're paying for. When I mention the above, she did say that it "would be hard to fill our time" and she mentioned sites like St. Peter's Basilica outside the walls and St. Clemente (but we're already doing that, too). And to just tell that driver what we're interested in and he'll arrange our tour for us...well we kinda want to know what our options are beforehand based on the gazillion tours they do with others.

Jany finally did reply that she noted on our reservation "No Vatican". I just wanted to make sure we would use our time efficiently especially since we had the luxury of being able to skip the Vatican.

7. Lastly, I had been warned by others (mostly DIY'ers, which we are not among the brave) that we don't need the driver, but it did sound really convenient and loads of folks highly recommend the tour and the experience, we figured we couldn't go wrong and don't mind spending the $. But, now I'm wondering if it really doesn't make sense based on what we want to see/do?

 

Am I missing something? We do have RIL booked for full day tours in Naples and Florence. We won't be canceling those or our transfers with them. But, maybe for Rome, we should cancel?

NO Way!!! We did BOTH! We loved having the convenience of being whisked from sight to sight in a comfortable private vehicle with a knowledeable tour guide. And, when we had to use the restroom, being guided to nice clean ones! And, now that we've done alot of walking...well, it's ALOT of walking! So, we loved our driving tour. Our walking tours came the next day...and boy did my legs and feet hurt!

[Hlitner]

We understand that some folks are simply scared to do anything on their own and do respect this opinion. But Rome is simply a sprawling city which has a decent Metro system, a huge local bus system, and is also a fabulous place for walking. There is also a typcial HoHo bus tour system (we are not fans of HoHos). The idea of hiring somebody to simply drive you around Rome and drop you at sites makes little sense when you factor in the cost. With the purchase of a single guide book (such as the Rick Steve's Rome book or Fodors small Rome book) will give you more then enough info on how to get cheaply from place to place. It is also possible to simply grab a taxi for longer distances (still much cheaper then hiring a tour company).

 

DIY is even easier in Florence where most of the main tourist areas are within walking distance or each other and being on foot is the best way to explore this wonderful city. The one exception is the Academia which is a bit of a hike from the other places (we walk it in less then 30 min) but is easily reachable by simply grabbing a taxi.

 

A major factor for many folks is the cost. DIY is almost always far cheaper and often lets you see even more (at your own pace) then a structured tour. We recently completed a long cruise which called at 31 ports. Some folks on our cruise spent more then $10,000 on tours while we DIYers kept our cost under $3000 and often saw a lot more then the tours.

 

Hank

[texancruzer]

Not too mention the best part of Rome is strolling the small streets......finding new stuff at each turn. We have been numerous times now and each time we go we try to find new areas we haven't "explored" yet....... On our first trip we walked quite a bit but we also used taxis to get from A to B when we had a tour scheduled or needed to get there quicker than walking.... it was a whole lot cheaper than using a tour company !!!!!

[azlove2cruise]

We understand that some folks are simply scared to do anything on their own and do respect this opinion.

Hank

 

Then, if that is the case, please also respect that some people may not have the luxury of making multiple visits back to Rome and/or may find DIY a bit more daunting than others. I did not intend for this post to be a DIY vs. "scared to do anything on their own folks". Sorry, but I'm getting rather tired of these types of replies. CC is supposed to offer varying options. There are different people and different styles. And, this post was certainly not intended to steer people towards spending nor saving $. Obviously DIY would be much cheaper...in the pocketbook, if that's how you define it. But sometimes, peace of mind, ease, etc. is worth much more. Again, to some, not all.

[agabbymama]

Then, if that is the case, please also respect that some people may not have the luxury of making multiple visits back to Rome and/or may find DIY a bit more daunting than others. I did not intend for this post to be a DIY vs. "scared to do anything on their own folks". Sorry, but I'm getting rather tired of these types of replies. CC is supposed to offer varying options. There are different people and different styles. And, this post was certainly not intended to steer people towards spending nor saving $. Obviously DIY would be much cheaper...in the pocketbook, if that's how you define it. But sometimes, peace of mind, ease, etc. is worth much more. Again, to some, not all.

 

 

Good post. I'm in the group that thinks it's well worth the money spent to have someone that knows their way around.

 

My husband and I drove through Germany, Austria, Italy, Switzerland, Belgium, Holland and back to Germany (15 years ago), so I'm very familiar with DIY too. We spent a lot of time LOST! Trying to find our way. In Wurzburg Germany, we could see the hotel on the hill, but couldn't find the road to it. We gave up and went into a McDonald's for lunch and asked how to get there. Ends up, it was a private drive (think alley). We finally did get to the hotel (and it was a beautiful old Castle Hotel).

 

Wandering or driving lost, isn't my idea of a great vacation. Even in Venice, you can spend hours trying to find your way out of the maze of streets. I would much prefer to pay a local guide to show me the sites. But then I hire guides or go on coach tours here in the US too.

 

Hank doesn't care for HO HOs, and I love them. I've used them in NYC, Sydney Australia, Athens Greece, Paris France, Rome Italy. I think they give you a good overview of the city, and are a wonderful alternative to walking. In Rome, we did the two day pass. Planned the Northern Route on day 1 and the Southern Route on day 2. And we still did plenty of walking. We left the hotel at around 8:00 am each day and returned at around 5:00 each evening. Dog tired.

 

And taxis in Rome weren't all that great as far as I'm concerned. We paid 10 and 12 EURO (close to $20 each time) to go 10 blocks. We paid 26 EURO for the 2 day HO HO pass. I think the HO HO was a lot more economical than the taxi. We tried the bus, and did ride for free for about 2 blocks before a very nice gentlemen explained in halted English that we were supposed to have already bought our ticket at a tobacco shop. We might be arrested, so we got off at the next stop. When we boarded the bus, the driver is behind glass, so he doesn't talk to you at all. No machine to put money (like here in the US). SO we asked at a tobacco shop and was going to buy the ticket for the next day, but the clerk said they are timed, and we had like 75 minutes to use the ticket. Well, we didn't know when we were going to want to ride the stupid bus, so we didn't use the bus again. Then if you have the hotel call a taxi for you, the meter starts when they depart wherever they are, not when they actually pick you up, so that adds to the amount. That explains the 10 or 12 EUR above.

 

Thank goodness there are choices for all kinds of travellers. You just have to know what you prefer and what is going to give you the best bang for your buck!

[rmurray847]

Then, if that is the case, please also respect that some people may not have the luxury of making multiple visits back to Rome and/or may find DIY a bit more daunting than others. I did not intend for this post to be a DIY vs. "scared to do anything on their own folks". Sorry, but I'm getting rather tired of these types of replies. CC is supposed to offer varying options. There are different people and different styles. And, this post was certainly not intended to steer people towards spending nor saving $. Obviously DIY would be much cheaper...in the pocketbook, if that's how you define it. But sometimes, peace of mind, ease, etc. is worth much more. Again, to some, not all.

 

You're absolutely right! My wife and I read up on each city we're visiting, and sometimes, the distance or timing just makes DIY seem too tricky...so we spring for the private tours and maximize our visit. The "peace of mind" and the ability to see much more than fumbling around on our own makes it money well spent. Other places (such as Athens or Barcelona) seems more clear cut and then we can save some money and strike out on our own.

 

I certainly agree that the implication that you were "scared" was not called for. Peace of mind, efficiency, tour guide knowledge and maximization of time all has great value.

[texancruzer]

You're absolutely right! My wife and I read up on each city we're visiting, and sometimes, the distance or timing just makes DIY seem too tricky...so we spring for the private tours and maximize our visit. The "peace of mind" and the ability to see much more than fumbling around on our own makes it money well spent. Other places (such as Athens or Barcelona) seems more clear cut and then we can save some money and strike out on our own.

 

Sorry, had to chuckle at this. We usually try to DIY first, then a private tour and last resort is a ship tour (yes we have done these). We did DIY in Athens twice while on a port stop and Barcelona on a one day post cruise stay before flying home on our first Med cruise.......and found both those cities to be much more challenging that Rome pre/post cruise DIY. To get into Athens DIY you need to use the metro or take a taxi. We used the metro. Not hard but definitely out of the comfort zone of a lot of people. And Barcelona it seemed most sites were quite spread out so a little harder to just get around. We ended up getting a taxi once or twice. And in Europe there are taxi stands all over so no need to call one unless headed to the airport with luggage. We found them to be quite convenient and economical.

 

As for using tours, I think it is a great option - but not at the expense of being in the car all day and losing the experience of at least some strolling in Rome. Note I said strolling - not walking from Site #1 to Site #2. It's very different. That is why the locals do it every evening with kids in tow. Just my opinion and I'm posting it :D

[rmurray847]

Sorry, had to chuckle at this. We usually try to DIY first, then a private tour and last resort is a ship tour (yes we have done these). We did DIY in Athens twice while on a port stop and Barcelona on a one day post cruise stay before flying home on our first Med cruise.......and found both those cities to be much more challenging that Rome pre/post cruise DIY. To get into Athens DIY you need to use the metro or take a taxi. We used the metro. Not hard but definitely out of the comfort zone of a lot of people. And Barcelona it seemed most sites were quite spread out so a little harder to just get around. We ended up getting a taxi once or twice. And in Europe there are taxi stands all over so no need to call one unless headed to the airport with luggage. We found them to be quite convenient and economical.

 

As for using tours, I think it is a great option - but not at the expense of being in the car all day and losing the experience of at least some strolling in Rome. Note I said strolling - not walking from Site #1 to Site #2. It's very different. That is why the locals do it every evening with kids in tow. Just my opinion and I'm posting it :D

Well, my experience in Rome is not part of my "cruise port" history, because we were actually there for 2 full days before our cruise. We found Rome VERY easy to walk around, because we were staying there. I can understand, though, the temptation to hire a service if you're only there for a day, have to make the trek from the port and are not familiar with the city.

 

We will be seeing Rome as a port city this August, but will go with DIY, because we were just there last year, and have no crushing need to see "everything", so we have time.

 

Grabbing a taxi to go from one spot to another still fits in with my DIY rules. When you hire a guide to pick you up from port, drive your around and redeposit you...then it doesn't qualify.