To You "Dueling" Carnival Veterans ... Stop and Smell The (Lousy) Coffee!

[Catrin]

isn't it odd? you would think it would be the consumer vs the corporation.

 

it's funny watching some join the corporation side.

 

I think it because some of us are in the businesses that have seen some significant cuts throughout the years.

 

While we cannot side with Carnival for 100% of the cuts, many of them are understood, because we live it on our "real lives" at home.

 

I may not love it, but as a consumer, I understand it.

Catrin

[popsec]

I totally agree with the OP's post. However, if Carnival had just shut up about the wonderful loyalty program for the past 3+ years, most people probably wouldn't have cared that much. What other company hipes upcoming changes to their loyalty program?!? :confused:

[H82seaUgo]

I think it because some of us are in the businesses that have seen some significant cuts throughout the years.

 

While we cannot side with Carnival for 100% of the cuts, many of them are understood, because we live it on our "real lives" at home.

 

I may not love it, but as a consumer, I understand it.

Catrin

 

Mmakes one wonder whot he corporation was thinking of during any cuts.

 

sitting in board rooms for meetings over 20 years, it was always all about what we cut cut and how we could mask it. i often wonder how we could get those who we were trying ti fool to be on our side and cheerlead for us.

[jewopaho]

This being our 13th Carnival Cruise coming up, it is amazing how we actually spend LESS. We do LESS too. We are so happy just to relax, that we no longer need to go to every show, every shopping talk, every Inch of Gold Sale :p, Every game of Bingo. Sure, Carnival is grateful for our repeat business, but it is the Newbie they need to attract year after year. Let the newbies spend their money on the Casino, Overpriced Discounted Shopping, and Endless trips to the bars.... without the Newbies, Carnival would be way OVERPRICED!!!

This is exactly us! We're essentially retired, but hardly on our last legs. All we want to do is relax for a week, pretty much oblivious to our surroundings. We did make an exception our December cruise to Dubai ... figured that we'd never be going back, so we did it all, including riding a camel. But on our more traditional cruises, we don't book shore excursions, do virtually no shopping, don't enter the casino, avoid the port talks like the plague, drink rarely (two or three per cruise), see a show only if we're in the mood ... as previously noted, we're not the target demographic. If we were, Carnival would be in trouble. It's not as if we're on any sort of budget ... it's just our idea of a vacation. We've already done pretty much everything there is to do ... and if we want to do it again, we will. But my greatest pleasure on our last cruise was derived from reading "Steve Jobs" while listening to jazz on my iPhone (ironic, huh?). Besides, there are no camel rides on the ship.

[larkz]

I just re-read my post ... must have missed something. I don't remember referring to anyone as "trashy," "unsophisticated," or any other derogatory adjective. I simply made a point.

 

The specific terms weren't there, but the implication came through from the text of your post, with derogatory references to the target demographic being folks who are stuffing their faces 24/7, sending their kids to day camp at sea, letting go in front of people they'll never see again, and lack of a dress code, etc.

 

The target demographic has not changed one iota since Carnival began heavily marketing itself in the 70s. They endeavored to break the mold back then, to remove the idea that you had to be old and rich to take a cruise. With the popularity of the "Love Boat" TV series, my working class autoworker father scrounged together enough money in 1977 to take his two kids on a cruise. I had asked him at one point why he picked Carnival over Princess (the line featured in the TV series), and he said, because Carnival is the least expensive.

 

Over time, many of the other modestly priced cruiselines have adopted, borrowed, and stolen ideas from Carnival -- and vice versa. That's the way industries evolve to become more alike than different, and that's why so many of them end up consolidating, buying each other out, and sometimes monopolizing.

 

The case about frequent cruisers not being in Carnival's target is nonsense. For one thing, why would they offer FCCs with on board credit? And OBC with stock ownership? Carnival will fill its ships with anyone who wants to cruise, be it a frugal tightwad like me, a young family, a multi-generational family, a couple of seniors, or young spendaholics who load their credit cards to the max. No company can afford to continually get new customers, and try to rid itself of past customers. That business model doesn't even make sense.

[gliner]

I gave up coffee because of the awful Carnival coffee. Gawd awful syrup that stuff.

 

Still sail them though.

 

As for "trashy," the family of 12 that took up 2 tables in the MDR on our last cruise that were tossing "F" bombs at each other throughout the meal were certainly "trashy."

 

Carnival has lowered their fares considerably and they are attracting those first-time cruisers alright.

[musicgal]

I've got one more iffy Carnival cruise to book before my husband writes off cruising altogether. Fortunately for me- the recent Spirit cruise was very satisfactory for both of us. So, I am hoping that a winter cruise on Magic will help me/us keep our gold status intact for the time being. I like cruising... he is neutral. Prior to the Spirit, he was almost negative- but it always seems to be a crap shoot- especially out of Galveston.

 

I have to agree with the OP, that post-50 cruisers are not the target demographic for "Carnival proper anymore". We are, however- the demographic for their Cunard, HAL and Seabourn lines. They will continue to make money on us and we will get our perceived product for a few more bucks. We talked to a lot of young people in their 20's last week who were thrilled with the ship and the cruise- they were happy to have all that food around... and they didn't know the difference between bad and "good" coffee. Lots of honeymooners "kissy-kissy" in the dining room at night. Reminds me of the TV shows that tout the restoration of these old houses from the 60's and 70's. The kids, ours including, are in love with the concept of owning an older home... they appreciate it:) To a great degree, they don't know any better- and since Carnival is the cheapest usually... this is the demographic they can satisfy the easiest.

So be it.

For us unfortunately, this next cruise can make or break the opinion my spouse has of the "entire" cruise experience. So I hope my plan to keep our current status doesn't backfire.

Carnival honored all of it's promises to us on the Spirit in the middle of price hikes- that impressed my husband.

[Hunwolf]

The specific terms weren't there, but the implication came through from the text of your post, with derogatory references to the target demographic being folks who are stuffing their faces 24/7, sending their kids to day camp at sea, letting go in front of people they'll never see again, and lack of a dress code, etc.

 

The target demographic has not changed one iota since Carnival began heavily marketing itself in the 70s. They endeavored to break the mold back then, to remove the idea that you had to be old and rich to take a cruise. With the popularity of the "Love Boat" TV series, my working class autoworker father scrounged together enough money in 1977 to take his two kids on a cruise. I had asked him at one point why he picked Carnival over Princess (the line featured in the TV series), and he said, because Carnival is the least expensive.

 

Over time, many of the other modestly priced cruiselines have adopted, borrowed, and stolen ideas from Carnival -- and vice versa. That's the way industries evolve to become more alike than different, and that's why so many of them end up consolidating, buying each other out, and sometimes monopolizing.

 

The case about frequent cruisers not being in Carnival's target is nonsense. For one thing, why would they offer FCCs with on board credit? And OBC with stock ownership? Carnival will fill its ships with anyone who wants to cruise, be it a frugal tightwad like me, a young family, a multi-generational family, a couple of seniors, or young spendaholics who load their credit cards to the max. No company can afford to continually get new customers, and try to rid itself of past customers. That business model doesn't even make sense.

 

To be fair...you are the one that perceived it as derogatory or negative. Through the years...the commercials the Carnival has run and the marketing campaigns have pushed the very message you find so inflammatory.

 

Odd...you seem to be in the minority even among Carnival's marketing. Nothing wrong with that, just an outlier.

[loubetti]

Al, you're right on the money. Carnival, even since the days of Ted Arison and Bob Dickinson has ALWAYS been about attracting new cruisers. Then, as they grew, and bought more lines, they could send them off to other lines they own. You move up. Those who cared not to move on are in the vast minority.

 

Does anyone here think that this Carnival board represents more than 1% of total Carnival cruisers? No, I don't think so. Maybe .005% at best.

[pauleydm]

I would not call myself a Carnival "cheerleader" by any means. I choose Carnival because I can go on 2 cruises a year for the price of 1 cruise on another line. Does that mean that I will not go on another cruise line in the future, of course not. But for now, I like what Carnival has to offer. I would not consider myself the typical Carnival cruiser since I do not add to Carnival's profit margin with bar drinks, bets at the casino or shore excursions. I personally enjoy what is offered on the ship at no extra cost to me.

 

I agree there have there been changes, but I personally think that most of the changes that Carnival is making is positive. I personally like the Carnival 2.0. I feel that the Breeze and the Sunshine will be great additions to the fleet with the new decor and show and dining offerings. I used to be a performer on two different 5 star lines so I see the difference between their model and passenger demographic and what Carnival offers. Yet I choose Carnival because it fits my needs and desires:)

[Hunwolf]

Is Carnival 2.0 like New Coke?

[meatloafsfan]

As I noted, I'm not knocking any of it ... and if it works for you, terrific. My point is that the target demographic dictates the "state of the product." Royal Craibbean's model differs, as does that of every other cruise line. There are dozens of posts whining about the "cheapening" of the experience, and how Carnival will ultimately suffer, with hordes of veterans abandoning ship (pun intended). Perhaps ... but their places will be taken by those first-timers, who will likely spend even more, since they don't know any better. And those such as you will continue to cruise with Carnival ... so everybody wins. Keep sailing, and enjoy your cruises.

 

Al

 

Why would you assume that new cruisers "don't know any better" about how they choose to spend their money? Not everyone wants to drink only lemonade and the iced tea on board - or smuggle or order a bottle through bon voyage so they have to go back to their room to get a drink. Some people actually enjoy picking out souveniers for family and friends and bring everyone home something regardless of the number of times they've been somewhere. And some people enjoy gambling, taking ship excursions (for various reasons) or engage in other kinds of onboard spending.

 

Carnival's business plan is attract cruisers with the lower base fares and then entice them to spend on board.

 

If it's milestone or platinum cruisers who spend less ( according to you), why would Carnival want to attract those cruisers in the first place? They want people who are willing to spend money on board, regardless of whether it's their first cruise, 5th cruise or 100th cruise.

[ilovetexas]

OP- Finally! Someone making sense. You have, indeed, hit the nail on the head in describing Carnival's business model.

 

A lot of people who are up in arms don't understand the model. Or maybe they do but don't like it. I get that because I don't really like it, either. I'm not sure I'm ready to grow up to Carnival's other lines, even though I can afford them.

 

BTW, since you're taking advantage of additional lines sailing out of Galveston, you should really try to get on whichever DCL ship is down there. I think it's the Magic. They really have lovely ships and believe it or not, you can avoid the kids a lot of the time. DH and I just sailed the new Fantasy without our kids and had a great time.

[tamirpr]

I must be not the typical Carnival cruiser. DH and I always rack up a significant S&S bill. I have seen the opposite with newbie cruisers. I'm always amazed to see newbies with a S&S bill with just a few lines. We're happy with a few pages.:eek::D

 

I would think that someone that is just happy to be on a ship because it's cheap doesn't have the funds to rack up a big S&S bill. They're typically the cash-only folks.

 

It also contrasts with the latest Carnival commercial that seems like it's on all the time. It's of a 40/50-something couple looking for a new vacation. That's my demographic, not the 20-somethings that is being suggested here that Carnival is targeting.

[JohnSpo]

Yes the OP was right on. I have been on 4 Carnival 7 day cruises. I spent a ton of money on my first cruise. If I combine what I spent on cruises 2, 3, & 4, it is still much less than I spent on my very first cruise. My first cruise I did an excursion at each port, spent a ton at the bars, spent way too much at the spa and lost a lot at the casino. I cruise only Carnival and I actually like their business model. They keep the fare low and you get to design/pay for your unique cruise experience. This is better than paying higher fares on other lines for many things you won't use or do. Carnival's model is similar to what many of the airlnes are doing now. Charging extra for amenities such as food, drinks, entertainment, preferred seating, preferred boarding and even checking luggage.

 

I will be taking my 5th Carnival cruise in September. It will be interesting to see all of the changes people have been discussing.

[kbmeow]

While I understand OP original point is. But why should carnival worry if anyone can afford there drinks. The people are adults and should be responsible for what they are paying. I never travel without knowing my budget and doing diligent research. And yes I saw some cutbacks and changes some good some not so good. But responsible adults do not get caught up and open there wallets.

[jewopaho]

The specific terms weren't there, but the implication came through from the text of your post, with derogatory references to the target demographic being folks who are stuffing their faces 24/7, sending their kids to day camp at sea, letting go in front of people they'll never see again, and lack of a dress code, etc.

 

The target demographic has not changed one iota since Carnival began heavily marketing itself in the 70s. They endeavored to break the mold back then, to remove the idea that you had to be old and rich to take a cruise. With the popularity of the "Love Boat" TV series, my working class autoworker father scrounged together enough money in 1977 to take his two kids on a cruise. I had asked him at one point why he picked Carnival over Princess (the line featured in the TV series), and he said, because Carnival is the least expensive.

 

Over time, many of the other modestly priced cruiselines have adopted, borrowed, and stolen ideas from Carnival -- and vice versa. That's the way industries evolve to become more alike than different, and that's why so many of them end up consolidating, buying each other out, and sometimes monopolizing.

 

The case about frequent cruisers not being in Carnival's target is nonsense. For one thing, why would they offer FCCs with on board credit? And OBC with stock ownership? Carnival will fill its ships with anyone who wants to cruise, be it a frugal tightwad like me, a young family, a multi-generational family, a couple of seniors, or young spendaholics who load their credit cards to the max. No company can afford to continually get new customers, and try to rid itself of past customers. That business model doesn't even make sense.

I'm not one to infer ... so your conclusion about the intent of my remarks is incorrect. I never make reference, express or implied, to anyone's "class."

 

FCC's are a winner for every cruise line ... you give them money (directly charged to your credit card), they get to keep it for a while (perhaps years) without paying any sort of return, and in exchange provide some onboard credit (which doesn't cost them anywhere near face value) when you finally book another cruise. Multplied by the thousands who participate, there's quite a bundle involved. It's essentially free money ... a no-brainer if there ever was one.

 

Stock ownership provides both the investor and CCL with the opportunity to make money. As of a few moments ago, one would have to have to fork over abour $3500 in order to qualify for a benefit of $100 OBC ... which again costs Carnival nowhere near that. Further, one can "cash in" by sailing Princess, Holland America, Cunard, Seabourn, P&O ... any line under the CCL umbrella.

 

There are some discounts for "past guests" ... but only if and when sales are lagging. It's common throughout the industry. They don't offer this perk if not needed to fill the ship. Further, if they were truly focused on bringing us back, they wouldn't have eliminated some of those popular amenities previously mentioned, or screwed around with the loyalty program, raising the ire of many veterans. To those new to cruising, ignorance is bliss ... they don't know what was previously included, so there's no benchmark.

 

I think we both agree that Carnival's success is based on "mass appeal." My point once again is that those of us who cruise frequently are less of a factor than ever. There is absolutely no question that Carnival is heavily targeting that group that I previously identified. No, they're not "ridding themselves of past customers" ... but first-timers and infrequent vacationers remain the bulk of Carnival's customers by far, and it's definitely by design. The fact that some of us "old tightwads" still cruise with them is incidental ... Carnival doesn't make much money off us. We may not necessarily be a liability, but I'm certain that they would rather have a couple of newbies occupying that stateroom. With all this, Carnival remains the largest and most profitable cruise line ... and you can't argue with success. As I previously noted, I'm not knocking it ... just making an observation as someone who has had a bit of success in business.

 

If you ever cruise out of Galveston, let's meet and have a drink. I'd love to discuss this further ... business strategies have played a large part in my life. Smooth sailing ...

 

Al

[cruzn buckeye]

 

If it's milestone or platinum cruisers who spend less ( according to you), why would Carnival want to attract those cruisers in the first place? They want people who are willing to spend money on board, regardless of whether it's their first cruise, 5th cruise or 100th cruise.

 

I am almost Milestone, and trust me, I spend lots onboard. And have spent 30 - 40 thousand on cruising with them. My answer to your question of why would Carnival want to attract milestone or platinum? They don't anymore... they are gearing towards the newbies.

So what they need to do, is drop the Loyalty program altogether... after all, when these new cruisers get the number of cruises under their belts to reach those levels... they will have to change them again and figure out new ways to draw the newbies...

So.. just drop the program... and improve the service that is lacking what it used to be... even though newbies dont know that, because they never experienced it... After all, you cant miss what you never had... right?

[H82seaUgo]

i wonder how long it will be before those of us who buy better accomodations get better perks, being they seem to be copying ncll's business model.

 

a separate pool, dining room, and priority seating the show show lounge would be perfect! i can skip on the butler service.

[ib4cruzn]

I'm reading that many of you are growling over the most recent series of Cahill cutbacks, while others will defend their favorite cruise line to the bitter end ... perfectly understandable on both sides. Irrespective of position, though, here's where we longtime cruisers stand with Carnival: we're an afterthought. We matter less than ever. Here's why ...

 

We don't fall within the target demographic ... first-time cruisers (mostly younger families) with limited disposable incomes. Sure, it's great to have past guests aboard, but it's the newbies that are Carnival's bread and butter (or is it margarine these days?). These folks have no idea what's been cut out (so there's nothing to compare), and couldn't care less if the music on deck isn't live, or entertainers aren't being flown in, or the food selections and quality have diminshed ... they're on a friggin' cruise, which they never thought they could afford. Imagine sailing to "exotic" ports of call on a floating resort, stuffing your face 24/7, sending the kids to day camp at sea, letting go in front of people you'll never see again ... all for an incredibly low price ... what could be better? It was once something they could only dream about.

 

Of course, once they're aboard, and discover that virtually everything other than accommodations, food and entertainment comes at a steep cost, they figure, "What the hell ... it's the vacation of a lifetime. We'll figure out how to pay for it somehow." Simply put, they're caught up in the hype. Don't believe for a moment that their accounts will have a zero balance at the end of the cruise. This is exactly what Carnival is counting on ... a drink or three each day, a shore trip at every port, shopping for unbelievable deals at those "recommended" shops, maybe treating the family to a special dinner onboard, feeding a bucketful of coins to the bandits, having dozens of photos taken in front of different backdrops ... in reality, what they actually paid for the cruise is far less a consideration than how much Carnival will be able to pry from these folks' credit cards. Of course, once they return with all those glowing reviews (including tons of photos and videos) their friends will want to experience it ... and when they eventually pay off the cruise (maybe in a couple of years) they'll likely book again. It's pretty much a cyclical thing.

 

Conversely, those of us who cruise frequently know how to save, if we so choose ... personally, we know when prices are more favorable; we have enough photos to last a lifetime; we know better than to attend the "port and shopping" lecture (and not to go anywhere near the thousand Diamonds International locations); we've been to just about every port at least a dozen times; my gambling budget is limited to the amount of change I have in my pocket; every family member has all the souvenirs they'll ever want (or give away); our alcohol consumption is at best moderate ... we're hardly the demographic that Carnival wants as its primary consumer.

 

The objective is always to sail at 100% capacity ... empty staterooms are lost revenue sources. So if they drop the price to attract more newbies, they'll more than make up the difference from discretionary spending. And it's pretty easy to discern who Carnival is targeting ... the dress code (or lack thereof) in the dining rooms, the format of the menu (as in, "did'ja ever"), the "water park" on deck, even the type of music piped in ... pretty much a no-brainer. Want more proof? At the first show, when the cruise director asks, "How many of you are on your first cruise?" be prepared for a deafening roar.

 

Don't get me wrong ... I'm really not knocking it. It's Carnival's business model, and it's working. The people who count (new cruisers and CCL shareholders) are happy. Nothing else really counts. So as much as we'd like to believe otherwise, it really doesn't matter much to Carnival what we oldtimers think of the new regime ... it's all about cha-ching!!

 

Al

 

Well said Al.

 

One correction though: Many first-time cruisers believe they are taking a "cruise" when all they're getting is a glorified "boat ride".

 

At least it's keeping them away from the AIs. Until Carnival opens one. With upgradeable dining, of course and ten dollar drinks.

 

YMMV

[Harris Jeffer]

PT Barnum said it 100 years ago.....theres a sucker born every minute!

 

He also said..."You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time." and, "You can fool too many of the people too much of the time"?

 

I will not be fooled by Carnival again !

[Sargent_Schultz]

Personally I find new cruisers refreshing and energetic. Alive.

 

When did Carnival ever have great coffee? :p

[Sargent_Schultz]

“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”.

[Frank12]

Is Carnival 2.0 like New Coke?

 

Hope not! One of the worst marketing disasters in recent times.

[popsec]

I'm not one to infer ... so your conclusion about the intent of my remarks is incorrect. I never make reference, express or implied, to anyone's "class."

 

FCC's are a winner for every cruise line ... you give them money (directly charged to your credit card), they get to keep it for a while (perhaps years) without paying any sort of return, and in exchange provide some onboard credit (which doesn't cost them anywhere near face value) when you finally book another cruise. Multplied by the thousands who participate, there's quite a bundle involved. It's essentially free money ... a no-brainer if there ever was one.

 

Stock ownership provides both the investor and CCL with the opportunity to make money. As of a few moments ago, one would have to have to fork over abour $3500 in order to qualify for a benefit of $100 OBC ... which again costs Carnival nowhere near that. Further, one can "cash in" by sailing Princess, Holland America, Cunard, Seabourn, P&O ... any line under the CCL umbrella.

 

There are some discounts for "past guests" ... but only if and when sales are lagging. It's common throughout the industry. They don't offer this perk if not needed to fill the ship. Further, if they were truly focused on bringing us back, they wouldn't have eliminated some of those popular amenities previously mentioned, or screwed around with the loyalty program, raising the ire of many veterans. To those new to cruising, ignorance is bliss ... they don't know what was previously included, so there's no benchmark.

 

I think we both agree that Carnival's success is based on "mass appeal." My point once again is that those of us who cruise frequently are less of a factor than ever. There is absolutely no question that Carnival is heavily targeting that group that I previously identified. No, they're not "ridding themselves of past customers" ... but first-timers and infrequent vacationers remain the bulk of Carnival's customers by far, and it's definitely by design. The fact that some of us "old tightwads" still cruise with them is incidental ... Carnival doesn't make much money off us. We may not necessarily be a liability, but I'm certain that they would rather have a couple of newbies occupying that stateroom. With all this, Carnival remains the largest and most profitable cruise line ... and you can't argue with success. As I previously noted, I'm not knocking it ... just making an observation as someone who has had a bit of success in business.

 

If you ever cruise out of Galveston, let's meet and have a drink. I'd love to discuss this further ... business strategies have played a large part in my life. Smooth sailing ...

 

Al

 

The only thing I disagree with in your post (from Carnival's standpoint) is that they should be keeping the frequent cruisers happy. We don't spend anywhere near the money we used to on the ships (except in the casino, where we spend far more :o) but we've brought numerous others onto their first Carnival cruise.

 

I wear my Carnival t-shirts to work alot of times and get into many discussions about cruising and Carnival. I've even offered to help people book when they decide to try cruising. I feel I'm not only an asset to Carnival because of our 6 cruises a year but also because of all the others who have tried Carnival on my recommendation :) So, while we may not spend as much onboard as a newbie, we do bring others along with us....