United Flight operated by USAIR

[jerseygirl3]

I am able to get a very good fare for next February on United. However, when you pull up the fare on United's website, under "flight details" it lists that the actual flight is operated by USAir.

 

My question is what if USAir is out of business by next February. Since the ticket is booked through United, is the ticket honored?

[DanJ]

I'm no lawyer, but I'd say that United would find you routing on one of their flights since they sold you the ticket.

[hdawson]

And what if both airlines are history? Most travel insurance companies will not cover airlines that are in bankruptcy. Can't say as I blame them.

[Globaliser]

And what if both airlines are history?

hdawson - an interesting rumour about UA posted here, if you're interested. Buried in a lot of stuff about QF.

[cruiseguy2]

USAir and United are practically the same. I really don't think a big airline like that will go out of business.

 

from UAL's Website:

This filing does not mean that United is going out of business. On the contrary, this action enables United to make the changes necessary to secure its future while continuing to meet customers’ needs

 

You can read about United's Restructuring here:

http://www.united.com/page/middlepage/0,6823,50120,00.html

Read about UsAir's here:

http://www.transformingusairways.com/html/index.html

 

If they do go out of business, OH NO! My company (and many other companies) depend on United for all of the travel needs. I have a lot of miles in my UAL FF account (over 120,000 plus Platinum Status). I'm not even close to that on AA.

 

 

-Chris

[EmJakeBubbie]

there was another thread e-speaking of this very subject.

I am Silver Preferred on US Air and fly from a hub (PHL) so I am very loyal to this company. I simply can't believe that any "liquidation" will leave so many ticket holders stranded, can you? Currently I am holding a total of 14 tickets to fly through 2/2006. They were all purchased with a credit card which will offer a small chance to recover $$$$ should the worse happen:mad: This includes 6 tickets (bought with miles) for the family to fly to SJU for our December cruise. I know how much it's gonna cost if US Air doesn't keep flying and I am somewhat concerned. This is such a dynamic airline (rather than a smaller, newer type of airline)...SWA is trying to give US Air a run at competition, but honestly I cannot stand flying SWA - had to do it once & once was enough!!!! I'd gladly pay more to get non stops flights with acceptable service. Sure, amenities have been cut on US whilst others (CO) are still doing things like hot towels....perhaps if I weren't in the PHL market I wouldn't be so positive, but they've held on this long and they are part of the Star Alliance and they are in talks with America West....I'm confident my tickets will "fly":)

[Globaliser]

USAir and United are practically the same. I really don't think a big airline like that will go out of business.

Remember Eastern? Or Pan Am?

[cruiseguy2]

But....

UAL filed in 2002 (I think) and they're not out of business. Plus, United (I think) is/was bigger than Eastern and Pan Am. The chances are slim. I just said that they *probably* won't go out of business. I know their stock dipped 50% after they announced restructuring, but they'll probably get out of it.

 

-Chris

[hdawson]

Remember TWA, Braniff and People Express.

Emjakes and Cruiseguy. USAir's stock is selling for 74 cents a share and the earnings per share is a Minus 11 dollars per share. Obviously the investment community has no confidence in this airline. They're dumping their pension plan on the US Taxpayer through the Pension Gty Corp. USAir lost a ton of loyalty Christmas with 10,000 misplaced pcs of luggage. Further, UAL hasn't been able to solve their problems in almost three years of Chap 11. If you guys really have confidence in these airlines, buy their stock. I will give UAL credit for raising they perceived level of service to rank 4th for 2004. Right behind JetBlue, AirTran and Southwest. JetBlue and AirTran fly the youngest fleets in the US. JetBlue - Airbus. AirTran - Boeing.

[cruiseguy2]

Also.....

Continental went into bankruptcy in 1990 and they're still in business and doing good. TWA went into bankruptcy three times before AA bought it. United issued a statement that says something like "Current and future tickets will be honored". That means they'll get you there someway.

 

If United or UsAir stops flying, the Department of Transportation requires that other airlines honor tickets; however, a change fee may apply. So, you'll probably be safe.

 

-Chris

[hdawson]

Those positive comments from management at companys in bankruptcy are routine. If they reported negative outlook, sales would cease that day. When an airline shuts down, there is no notice. The first you'll know is on the morning news that the creditors have seized the assets. If your tickets are to get to a cruise, or any other time sensitive appt, how many others are going to be looking for seats on alternative airlines. And most airplanes are going out near full. Good luck to all.

[cruiseguy2]

I'm not saying that those comments aren't routine, it's just that they're (usually!) true. I didn't want this to get into a big argument. People have differerent outlooks.

 

-Chris

[hdawson]

I've spent much of this week looking at airfares to Merida Mexico. USAir is much lower than others but I'm not about to take that chance, even with United as a backup. I'll be going Aeromexico and Delta. As I said, good luck to us all. The industry will be better off as soon as one or two airlines go bye bye allowing fares to increase to reasonable levels.

[NCTarheelsCruiser]

I've spent much of this week looking at airfares to Merida Mexico. USAir is much lower than others but I'm not about to take that chance, even with United as a backup. I'll be going Aeromexico and Delta. As I said, good luck to us all. The industry will be better off as soon as one or two airlines go bye bye allowing fares to increase to reasonable levels.

 

HD, I certainly respect your opinions, I just think that you have some interesting views on the airline industry. I have noticed that you bring up stock prices a lot, which I think is kind of comical, because I doubt many people on this board are here for help selecting stocks. Of course USAir's stock price is low right now, they are in bankruptcy, how many individual investors do you know that are rushing out to sink their life savings into companies that are in bankruptcy? Also, a stock price for any given company does not directly relate to the actual success of the company. There are many great companies that have proven track records of success and positive year over year growth that have stock prices which are very low based on the companys value. Same thing on the high side, remember JDS Uniphase that was once trading over $200 a share, look it up now and see where they are now. Was that $200+ a share price realistic, of course not. Not saying that the airlines fall into either of these categories. Anyway, don't want to get too far of topic as we are not here for a stock market course.

 

Delta is not really that much better off than United or USAir, I wouldn't feel any more or less confident booking a future ticket on Delta than I would United or USAir.

I really can't buy your statement of "The industry will be better off as soon as one or two airlines go bye bye allowing fares to increase to reasonable levels." I will assume you are thinking that UA and USAir might go away, please explain how consumers that live on the east coast in areas where USAir and UA provide a majority of the service will benefit if they are no longer around. For example here in Charlotte where USAIR controls 4 out of the 5 terminals at Charlotte Douglas. If USAir is gone who are we going to fly? Certainly some of the other carriers that serve the airport would pick up some gates, and yes Airtran just entered the market and Southwest and JetBlue have been sniffing around here a couple of times, but no way would all of USAirs gates be filled by the other airlines. So anyone in this area would face a huge reduction in available flights, especially direct flights, better....hmmm?

Also, if fares rise, leisure travel drops reducing passenger loads on flights, can't see how that will help the industry.

The real truth is that the airline industry will be better off when they hire some better management that understands how to run a business and get their costs in line.

[hdawson]

For anyone concerned, I just read a post stating that NBC 6 in Charlotte has announced the cancelling of 10% of USAir's flights from or arriving in Charlotte on May 10th and 11th due to a runway being shutdown for repairs.

 

NCTarheels. Do you remember the dept store Thalhimers in Charlotte? Now Hechts. Very soon to be Macy's. Ivey's became Dillards. And much further back KMart replaced Kresge's and I think Jupiter Stores. Businesses are born, mature and usually have a life span.

 

Earlier you mentioned Delta. They are probably safe from filing Chap 11 until Oct or Nov. Their debt load is tremendous and they are facing a liquidity crisis later this year. Over a 22 Billion debtload. They are searching for a buyer for Comair and Southeast Atlantic to have operating cash. They currently have over a billion dollars but burning through it daily. Delta hasn't been in bankruptcy for almost 3 yrs like United or bankrupt twice in 3 yrs like USAir. If they file I would think they will be around for at least 2 or 3 yrs after the filing. I doubt if Delta will liquidate in the forseeable future.

 

If USAir folds, it will be a shock to Charlotte but the void will be filled by others quicker than one might think. Fairly normal service should be in place in two to three weeks with temporary gate leases. Some releif in 12 to 24 hours. Lots of planes have been retired in the last two years and stored in the desert. AirTran and JetBlue are currently taking delivery of 100+ brand new planes each. JetBlue - Airbus and AirTran - Boeing.

 

As for my believing that fares have to increase it's simply because not one legacy airline is profitable. Costs are so much higher than revenue that a business can't survive in the red indefinitely. If, and a big if it is, oil comes down to $45 per barrel, it will reduce the losses of the major airlines. It will not eleminate the losses. At the same time it would increase the profits of the three profitable airlines making those low cost carriers an even bigger power in the industry and put even more competitive pressure on the majors.

 

The concessions from creditors and employees that UAL and USAir have gotten through the courts has only created more price competition in the industry. Although they don't make profits they have the advantage of lower costs and drive fares lower that other lines have to match. Ditching the defined pension programs is big bucks and the taxpayer will have to make up for it. If those two were allowed to exit the industry then just maybe the remaining airlines can raise prices and return to profitability. And maybe then improve service that so many say is gone. Personally, I haven't seen any great reduction in service or maybe I just don't need much.

 

I do respect your stated concerns and understand them. It's going to a tough time for many. Hopefully, if USAir goes away and replaced some of the newcomers will consider some maintenance work at Charlotte, but then again they already have maintenance facilities elsewhere. Only time will tell.

[Globaliser]

HD, I certainly respect your opinions, I just think that you have some interesting views on the airline industry. I have noticed that you bring up stock prices a lot, which I think is kind of comical, because I doubt many people on this board are here for help selecting stocks. Of course USAir's stock price is low right now, they are in bankruptcy, how many individual investors do you know that are rushing out to sink their life savings into companies that are in bankruptcy? Also, a stock price for any given company does not directly relate to the actual success of the company.

hdawson's views aren't just interesting, I think that they're mainstream and balanced and I largely agree with them. However, it's obvious that they aren't the views of many people on CC who see the airline industry only from the perspective of what they want as customers, including those who like to put on rose-tinted glasses to look.

 

Share prices are relevant because they are largely set by markets who are aware of the financial situation of the company concerned. How many CC'ers believe that US Airways has a viable future? Of those who say yes, how many have actually read the 2005 Q1 figures to see how they've been doing? What do you think of them? What do they say to you? Those who are trading shares in any volume are not simply gambling but trying to ascribe a fair price to them based on what is known.

 

And if individual investors aren't prepared to put money into this company, where is the company going to find the hundreds of millions of dollars in new equity investment that it needs before it can get out of Chapter 11 (again)?

 

Delta is not really that much better off than United or USAir, I wouldn't feel any more or less confident booking a future ticket on Delta than I would United or USAir.

If you feel that, you're ignoring the fact that US Airways is now in Chapter 11 for a second time with few cards to play, and that United has been floundering around in Chapter 11 for 2½ years with no real strategy, no real plans and no real ideas - and no reliable estimate of when they might be out of Chapter 11. After about the fifth time that a management-pronounced date for Chapter 11 comes and goes without anything happening, you begin to hear "wolf" being cried (even though he's not been there for years :)).

 

Delta, at least, is not yet in Chapter 11. Even though the rate at which they're going at the moment means it looks like it's only a matter of time, at least they're several months or even a year or two behind US Airways and United in the race to go bust.

I really can't buy your statement of "The industry will be better off as soon as one or two airlines go bye bye allowing fares to increase to reasonable levels." ... So anyone in this area would face a huge reduction in available flights, especially direct flights, better....hmmm?

 

Also, if fares rise, leisure travel drops reducing passenger loads on flights, can't see how that will help the industry.

Fewer flights at higher fares is exactly what the legacy carriers need if they're going to try to make some money. Remember the airline's interest in making profits is directly opposed to the consumer's interest in paying as little as possible. The industry will certainly be better off if we are paying more money, even if we will not be better off. And a rebalance between leisure travel and business travel is probably exactly what's needed. It may not be good for consumers, but leisure travel (especially at current prices) is unprofitable and even loss-making for airlines. Why should they want to provide more of that, unless they absolutely had to? It would be mad.

[bUU]

I find it a bit strange to think that a company cannot possibly go out of business just because it is big. What determines the viability of an enterprise is how profitable it is, not how big it is.

 

If neither United or US Airways -- and let's thrown Delta in -- go out of business in the next year, where do you expect the money to keep all these unprofitable airlines afloat will come from?

[folashade]

 

Delta is not really that much better off than United or USAir, I wouldn't feel any more or less confident booking a future ticket on Delta than I would United or USAir.

I really can't buy your statement of "The industry will be better off as soon as one or two airlines go bye bye allowing fares to increase to reasonable levels."

Also, if fares rise, leisure travel drops reducing passenger loads on flights, can't see how that will help the industry.

The real truth is that the airline industry will be better off when they hire some better management that understands how to run a business and get their costs in line.

 

Sorry I have to disagree with you on this point. The industry does need an airline to go out of business so airfares can be realigned. The bread and butter of most airlines comes from business flyers not the leisure markets. Their budgets can better absorb paying a preimum on airfares that most leisure passengers can't. With increasing fuel costs and such low prices on business fares it leaves less of a margin to breakeven much less profit. Its more profitable to fly a plane half full of business flyers (paying a higher fares) than it is to fly a planeload of leisure passengers paying a third of the fare.

 

Delta has not entered into Chapter 11 yet. Most likely they will later this year that still gives them time to get it together (plus they have assets to sell). UsAir has been hanging on my their teeth for several years and I really don't see them lasting much longer since they don't have any assets left to sell and I don't see anyone willing to bail them out any longer

 

As for management - On legacy carriers it is not a simple matter of being able to run a business. They have a completely different business model than newer airlines or other businesses for that matter. They are locked in by unions/contracts that were made years ago that unless you get concessions make it a very difficult road to navigate. They also have to ensure customer satisfaction which is another reason UsAir's demise is imminent :cool: . Between the bare bones flights and the debacle during the holidays/ and the noticibly unhappy staff

[EmJakeBubbie]

HD, I certainly respect your opinions, I just think that you have some interesting views on the airline industry. I have noticed that you bring up stock prices a lot, which I think is kind of comical, because I doubt many people on this board are here for help selecting stocks. ...

The real truth is that the airline industry will be better off when they hire some better management that understands how to run a business and get their costs in line.

 

From a HUGE TarHeel Fan:D it amuzes me how this thread has taken off. I appreciate the passion. Seems those of us flying US Air hubs are keeping positive, yes? and yes, I'm sure not buying any stock, but as well, has anyone looked at how Ford is rated lately;). ok, back to airlines. I think they are all struggling, but some are just getting better publicity than others - there has to be some cutbacks; some elimination of unprofitable equipment; some improvement needs to be made in baggage handling. (and runways do need repaving -- it's a Good Thing;) Too many uncontrolled events have taken their toll on all airlines, but this doesn't mean they are down for the count. I was under the impression that "liquidation" means CloseUpShop now - tickets wouldn't be good on any carrier. Does anyone really know this answer? Yes, I've flown all those now deceased carriers & always other airlines stepped up to serve the affected ticket holders. I read the news daily and won't really take an easy breath until June, but is it at the beginning or end of June????? (have flts to Seattle 15th - 18th...oi vey:eek:

[hdawson]

EmJake. For some reason, mid-June seems familiar. Possibly concerning a very large repayment on the Gvmt Gtyd Loan. I do understand that congress recently passed a bill "requiring" other lines to accept the defunct airline's ticket with a surcharge. May have been attached to a Homeland Security Bill. I think in the past it's been a voluntary thing funded by an industry fund that airlines subscribed to. I am not real sure. I do recall last year an airline (Southeast?) folded, AirTran stepped up to accomodate those ticket holders for a charge of $50. I suspect that was to create goodwill. I agree, some of USAir's equipment should have been retired 10 yrs ago. They are flying 20 yr old airplanes. Of course the B52 is being flown by the grandchildren of the first crews, so go figure. I would expect that if USAir does fold, AirTran would increase flights at Charlotte-Douglas and both AirTran and Southwest would do the same at Philly, at least as a temporary fix.

[EmJakeBubbie]

EmJake. For some reason, mid-June seems familiar. Possibly concerning a very large repayment on the Gvmt Gtyd Loan. I do understand that congress recently passed a bill "requiring" other lines to accept the defunct airline's ticket with a surcharge. May have been attached to a Homeland Security Bill. I think in the past it's been a voluntary thing funded by an industry fund that airlines subscribed to. I am not real sure. I do recall last year an airline (Southeast?) folded, AirTran stepped up to accomodate those ticket holders for a charge of $50. I suspect that was to create goodwill. I agree, some of USAir's equipment should have been retired 10 yrs ago. They are flying 20 yr old airplanes. Of course the B52 is being flown by the grandchildren of the first crews, so go figure. I would expect that if USAir does fold, AirTran would increase flights at Charlotte-Douglas and both AirTran and Southwest would do the same at Philly, at least as a temporary fix.

Tnx f/the info & please share updates if you come across any news...I really don't want to have to purchase replacement tkts for our PHL-SJU 12/3/05 flts. Used miles for 6 tkts and tis the only reason kinder are going w/us on the SERENADE:rolleyes: That's like almost a 3K $aving$. I didn't know about any billing requiring other airlines to assist if/when an airline goes under... Might be adviseable for me to travel with alternate airline flight schedules "just in case"....gonna be interesting as with the e-tickets there's no "proof of purchase" like in the old days of paper tickets.....

[hdawson]

EmJake. When I do my online checkin and print out my boarding pass with AirTran Airlines, I also print out a "receipt". I would suppose that would qualify as proof of purchase. That way I have my seat assignment (by choice) and just procede to the gate.

[hdawson]

Concerning Delta's financial woes from todays Reuters news story. Third quarter thinking means things are getting worse at Delta.

 

 

"This is the most aggressive language they've used to describe what's going on," said Helane Becker, airline analyst at Benchmark Co. "This definitely shows they are now one step closer to bankruptcy. My guess is that they will have to file for Chapter 11 in the third quarter of this year."

 

Becker said airlines tend to generate a lot of cash in the third quarter, when the travel season reaches its peak. "If they're going to have to file for bankruptcy, they will likely do it, and they should do it, when they have the maximum amount of cash on hand," she said.

 

Overall 2005 cash needs total $2.4 billion, not including operating losses. Delta has just $1.8 billion in cash on hand unchanged from the previous quarter and $2.2 billion a year ago.

 

Filing Chap 11 doesn't mean they close up shop anytime soon. Reorganization does mean changes would be coming.

[MSC]

I have tickets on United for our trip to Seattle July 1. We are leaving on the Amsterdam July 3. I'm a bit nervous about the news these last days and the possibility of a strike. I'm hoping another airline will honor these tickets if that does happen. :confused:

[hdawson]

Remember, when another airline does honor other's tickets, it is on a space available basis.