Zuiderdam in general

[Tarkus]

i hope kk understands my remark when i asked if we were being put-on. why did i think that? when i read things along the lines of smoking rooms that smelled of smoke, clocks showing incorrect times, incorrect menu signatures, pool water getting cloudy after extensive use, spas closed intermittently... i'm sorry, but that struck me as either serious nit-picking. some of it still does - i'm pretty seriously o.c.d. (and notice my fair share of stuff that would get past the average person) but some of the observations would likely have gone unnoticed by every other passenger.

 

i agree with ray-barbara that the cruise recollection should have been presented differently - tell the good stuff first, then temper it with as much bad as kk perceived - at that point not so many people new to hal would have been pushing the panic button thinking they needed to cancel or reschedule on another ship. but, as posted, it made the zuiderdam sound like a bucket of bolts where you'd be taking your life in your hands sailing aboard her.

 

and i'm sorry that some of you feel attacked. one of the things i enjoy about cruise critics is it's very genteel nature - some of the other forums where i play can be downright nasty, whereas this place is always respectful. i don't see where kk was attacked in this thread either... but, perhaps my skin is just a little thicker than the average cc poster.

 

anyway, i wanted to chime-in in case my remark had engendered any hard feelings. none were intended... i just really thought this was some kind of belated april fool's joke as i read each subsequent post and the remarks made.

[Ray-Barbara]

I agree with Tarkus. We are not flaming KK, just wondering why he/she included every minor thing they could fine wrong with the ship. You have to overlook a few items when travelling and only complain if it becomes a major problem. I was more concerned about the refrigeration system than I was a broken window or a dented door. We can't frighten newbies by telling them everything. We have to give them a good report so that they will be excited about going on the Zuiderdam.

Ray

[peaches from georgia]

... We can't frighten newbies by telling them everything. We have to give them a good report so that they will be excited about going on the Zuiderdam.

Ray

If the Zuiderdam doesn't deserve a good report it shouldn't get one. There is no reason it should have any more problems than the average HAL ship might have, but it sure appears to have. I only want a truthful report and why would newbies want anything else? ;)

[Ray-Barbara]

If you had been on last weeks voyage, you would have seen it wasn't that bad. But if a newbie had read KK's reviews, they would have cancelled their tickets today.

 

Ray

[HeatherInFlorida]

i agree with ray-barbara that the cruise recollection should have been presented differently - tell the good stuff first, then temper it with as much bad as kk perceived - at that point not so many people new to hal would have been pushing the panic button thinking they needed to cancel or reschedule on another ship. but, as posted, it made the zuiderdam sound like a bucket of bolts where you'd be taking your life in your hands sailing aboard her.

 

 

I guess I lied. Here I am again:D . Tarkus, I don't think anyone of us has a right to tell someone else in what way they should write their review. We all do it differently. Where is it written you "tell the good stuff first" and "temper" it with the bad in order to make it more palatable?

I honestly don't mean to be harsh, but I really don't get that!

Just because someone is "new" doesn't mean they're not intelligent adults who can read several reviews and be sensible in their interpretations.

I agree with Peaches: "If a ship doesn't deserve a good report, it shouldn't get one." Obviously there were problems on the Zuiderdam on this particular cruise and KK reported them. Other cruisers didn't have the same experience or they didn't notice a particular problem, but I know I'd want differing opinions if I was thinking about going on any cruiseline.

I have absolutely no criticism of Ray-Barbara's review. That was their experience and gives a good balance. But Krazy Kruizers also deserves respect here and it's my opinion that she did not get it.

[peaches from georgia]

If you had been on last weeks voyage, you would have seen it wasn't that bad. But if a newbie had read KK's reviews, they would have cancelled their tickets today.

Ray

The things that bothered KK were not that bad to you. But they were to KK and anyone reading about any ship has to take all reviews, positive and negative, into account. Who judges what may be important to someone reading a review or what they would like to know before they board? Not you, nor me, nor KK. Just tell it like it was to you and let KK write his own review. It's not your or any other poster's job to make sure newbies stay excited before boarding the Zuiderdam. Surprise- newbies did read all of KK's reviews and I bet not a one of them cancelled. :eek:

[heartofamerica]

3 entries found for critic.

crit·ic Audio pronunciation of "critic" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (krtk)

n.

 

1. One who forms and expresses judgments of the merits, faults, value, or truth of a matter.

 

2. One who tends to make harsh or carping judgments; a faultfinder.

 

I guess the thing is that such strong emphasis on negative details that most likely pass unnoticed by most are interpreted as coming from the second definition rather than the first.

[Heaven2]

I agree Heather. I don't think that she got the respect an honest review should produce.

 

I didn't get much respect on my report on the Zui either. It seems to be fairly impossible to write a review about your own personal cruise without brickbats.

When you write up a review you are not asking for peronal attacks but you sure do seem to get them. Rebuttle on a review, if people feel that it is necessary, should not be a frenzy feeding on the author. Many people seem to feel empowered to say things from the keyboard that they would not say in person. Sometimes it reminds me of the school playground. It would be alot more fun if we could all "play " together nicely. We all have one thing in common and that is the love of cruising.

 

And although you told me about the smiley faces to show humor, I still am not getting the hang of inserting them in the body of the message. I need a tutorial !

 

I still read every day but don't post because I don't have the hide of a rhino!!!

[Ray-Barbara]

HeartofAmerica:

Excellent quote. I agree with you wholeheartedly!

Raly

[RevNeal]

I, for one, have no doubt about the veracity of KK's observations. I can understand, and have shared, the discriminating eye which sees problems right and left. Normally I don't post about the little things and, rather, will focus on the big problems. I did that on the Zaandam relative to some furnature-damage that was visible in the Crows Nest and some structure damage that was present in one of the hallways. For instance, this:

 

 

When I spotted this damage one afternoon I took this photo of it with my digital camera, then went up to the Front Desk to show it to them. They wanted to know where it was, I told them, and by the time I got back down there (on my way back to my stateroom) an maintanence crew was already inspecting it. It was quickly repaired.

 

In short, I APPRECIATE any and all reports of damage, while also cautioning that these are SHIPS at SEA, and sometimes things like this happen. That being said ... NOTHING justifies the kinds of vandalism that KK's enlightening report highlighted; the fact that such can be found on the Zuiderdam really worriest me about the kinds of passengers she's been hosting.

 

Thanks, KK, for your observations. Like me, you can't walk by damage, neglect, etc., without noticing it.

[HeatherInFlorida]

I agree Heather. I don't think that she got the respect an honest review should produce.

 

I didn't get much respect on my report on the Zui either. It seems to be fairly impossible to write a review about your own personal cruise without brickbats.

When you write up a review you are not asking for peronal attacks but you sure do seem to get them. Rebuttle on a review, if people feel that it is necessary, should not be a frenzy feeding on the author. Many people seem to feel empowered to say things from the keyboard that they would not say in person. Sometimes it reminds me of the school playground. It would be alot more fun if we could all "play " together nicely. We all have one thing in common and that is the love of cruising.

 

And although you told me about the smiley faces to show humor, I still am not getting the hang of inserting them in the body of the message. I need a tutorial !

 

I still read every day but don't post because I don't have the hide of a rhino!!!

 

I have to be honest, Heaven, I couldn't remember the thread you were talking about so went back to review. I did disagree with you then, but I couldn't agree more with you now. Everything you said is absolutely true. So that just shows that no one can agree with everyone all the time. Peaches and I often disagree, but we agree here.

I honestly do try to be fair and considerate of everyone. Sometimes I fail and I'm always sorry when I do but these are all just words on paper. That's why the smilies help:D . You do need a thick skin to post here ... no question. So I find the best thing to do is go away and come back and then, when the going gets really tough, just go away again. And little by little your skin gets a bit tougher.

 

It's one thing to disagree with what someone has posted, but the way it was done on this particular thread was insulting to someone who did not deserve it. That's my opinion.

[Ray-Barbara]

My only comment about KK's review is that he/she should have given a list of the problems on the ship to Mr. Deering, the Hotel Manager on the ship so that he could personnally make sure they were taken care of. Instead, he/she listed every little problem they discovered so that everyone reading the thread knew what was going on. To me that was information overload and was something that should have been giving to HAL to fix in a quiet, subtile way. Revneal attributed some of the damage to vandalism. Some of it might be true, but much of it could be attributed to the useage of 1900-plus people living in a small area together. Let let HAL make the repairs rather than spreading all over the front page.

 

Ray

[Tarkus]

...Tarkus, I don't think anyone of us has a right to tell someone else in what way they should write their review. We all do it differently. Where is it written you "tell the good stuff first" and "temper" it with the bad in order to make it more palatable?...

i see your point and agree. if my comment was taken as telling her how to write her review then i retract it. my observation was purely personal and may reflect a style wholly different than hers.

 

but the net result was as i suggested... within hours there appeared a polling thread that seemed to feed the "stay away from zuiderdam" hysteria, as well as replies in this and other threads questionning whether plans should be changed or canceled. i don't think it pure coincidence that these concerns arose after reading kk's review(s). perhaps that wasn't her intent - but it appears to be the end result... whether or not it was warranted by others reading her thoughts and impressions.

 

oh, and heather, PLEASE don't stay away just cuz you occasionally get flamed. i was wondering where you'd gone... i, for one, enjoy reading your replies (even when you take me to task). personally, i'm glad you lied (and posted again).

[Krazy Kruizers]

Flaming - oh yes - it is going on here.

When we are at a party we don't discuss what problems we see on the ship - this is a party -this is a party - not a complaint sesson. And we were invited to quite a few parties and enjoyed all of them. None of the people we met or talked to mentioned the ship - we had more important items to talk about - past cruise experenicies - where all we have traveled - different cruise lines, etc.

I find it ironic that if I mentioned about 3 treadmills not working - that was considered a negative. And then someone mentioned that they doubted seriously if we used them. Well - DH had a heart attack 5 years ago - yes he does use the treadmills everyday on the ship that he can. He belongs to an athletic club at home and we have our own treadmill. He was exercising 5 - 6 times a week when he had the attack. Heart attack was due to genetics.

Library - someone else mentioned that the library didn't have a lot of current books . I mentioned it - now it is negative factor but no one said anything to that person in their thread - guess it wasn't a negative factor to them.

Someone else mentioned about the desserts at lunch not being what they had on other ships - not negative to them - but for us it is now a negative item for the Zuiderdam.

When I mentioned about the deck floor between cabins 7065 and 7077 being very bad - I said that this was a construction problem. The first week we watched a woman having to constantly get people help her push her husband's wheel chair over the humps and bumps in the hallway and over the threshhold to get him into cabin 7065. The waiters had trouble manuvering their carts in our area when they were delivering meals. A couple of times coffee pots and tea pots fell off the carts. The Neptune workers also had trouble moving their carts in this area.

Someone mentioned about having air conditioning problems they - they were not slammed.

Dozens and dozens of negatives? How new are some of you to HAL and my reports?

I could go on and on - these are not negative reports - I (FEMALE) am just reporting what we saw and want others to be aware of these problems.

RAY - as I mentioned before - we had already made plans to meet this other couple - the plans were made in January. I didn't start to read the roll call board for the Zuiderdam cruise until we returned from our cruises on the Volendam near the end of March.

[Krazy Kruizers]

Thank you sail7seas (Judy), Ruth C, Heather from Florida, Lisa (LAFFNVEGAS), and anyone else who knows that I report a lot about our cruises - good and bad. And I try to mention things that are wrong with a ship that could be valuable information to others. I just want new cruisers to be aware of what is happening on a ship that we have recently cruised on and what to expect.

There are a few other items that I was going to talk about like the Comedy Cooking Cake - but it isn't worth talking about - someone will flame me.

I find it ironic that those who are flaming me do not have much in the way of cruise experiences.

Yonnie and Joe (Krazy Kruizers)

[heartofamerica]

I find it ironic that those who are flaming me do not have much in the way of cruise experiences.

Yonnie and Joe (Krazy Kruizers)

 

I'm certainly not flaming - but in all honesty, in reading your threads, it comes across to this one with little "cruise experience" as someone discussing how bad the color red looks on a dress, then telling the lady in the red dress that she looks nice. I DID read some positives in your reviews, but the amount of negative notations appeared to be...well...nit-picky.

 

All I can say is that the limited number of cruises I have taken have been wonderful affairs - so much so that minor negatives were easy to overlook. If becoming an "experienced cruiser" means monitoring the carpets to look for stains, then I guess I'd rather be a newbie for life.

[sail7seas]

Because, like KK, we have cruised so much, I want to hear the things she reports. Her reviews when she returns from her frequent cruises are among the ones I look most forward to and get the most out of.

 

My DH and I use the treadmills on the ships. I WANT to know if they are not maintaining the gyms. It matters to me. Doesn't matter to someone else? Fine. Skip over it.

 

I want to hear about vandalism/damage done by pax on a ship. With Zuiderdam in particular, it says to me the seven day Caribbean sailings on the Vista ships may be attracting cruisers other than ones we usually encounter on longer HAL cruisers. I don't know how the doors got broken but I want to hear about the fact they are not repaired. I imagine it takes time to get replacements ordered and delivered. Many things the ship sails with to use for repairs but not everything.

 

I want for KK to continue to post her wonderful reviews. She is thorough and to my mind she is fair because I have always found her to be Truthful. Truth is an absolute defense.....not that she needs any defense at all. IMO

 

KK took way too much heat today IMO and I am sorry for that. She has been a long time, very fine, very sharing member of this community for a long time. I would hate for her to say...who needs it; I'm not going to bother to go to the trouble of doing these posts in the future. I feel I would be losing out on a lot.....and many others may feel the same way.

 

KK.....Thank you for your reviews. PLEASE keep them coming. You always hit on things I want to hear about.

[You and I are in complete agreement that a party or dinner with an officer or sharing a pre-dinner cocktail is not the time to be complaining and pointing out deficiencies with the ship. That is for comment sheets or a personal note sent for that purpose or for a visit to their office during 'business hours'. The social events are not the time and place for that IMO]

[HeatherInFlorida]

Talk about "nit-picky"!!!! Let up! (... I've always said "knit picky" ... is that wrong? Probably:D ).

 

So it's not enough to criticize Yonnie for her very reasonable critique (IMHO) ... now you want to keep jabbing. This is one poster who's not going to let it pass.

 

I have read reviews on this board way more critical than this one. So I have to ask myself (and all of you), why is this battle waged? I see it as biting the hand that feeds you. People come here for information from others who have cruised often on HAL and formed opinions over time.

 

Yonnie (whose name I've never known until tonight) has always been extremely fair and reasonable in all her reviews and an avid supporter of HAL. But she's not blind either and if problems are evident, I thank her for posting them.

 

Maybe some want to be led blindly onto the ship ... but not me. I read every opinion and then look at the positives and negatives and choose my cruises based on all the input I have gotten. And I still choose to cruise HAL because it's a fantastic cruiseline which, like each of us, will exhibit faults from time to time. This is obviously one of those times.

(Note: Posted almost the same time Sail did. Well said, Sail. I couldn't agree more!)

[bcc99]

The "stay away from Zuiderdam" thread was mine, but it was never my intention to sound an abandon-ship. I hoped that the poll would bring the two camps together, start a dialogue, and arrive at an overall opinion. As I said on that thread, something about this ship provokes drastically different opinions in people, and I've found it very difficult to get an honest feel for what a cruise on her is really like or why people feel so strongly about her. I had hoped to save other novices (8 cruises and 100+ posts, but I'm obviously still a novice) the frustration I've felt about choosing a cruise on this ship by polling the opinions in one place, be they positive or negative. Indeed, the novices rely on the experts' opinions to guide them--in the case of Zuiderdam, the experts' opinions seem to cancel each other out, leaving the novice no better off than he was at the beginning. "The truth" may be that every experience is completely subjective and unique to the individual, and it may never be possible to pronounce a final ruling either way...but Zuiderdam is the most incredibly subjective ship I've ever seen...and ultimately, "see for yourself" just isn't a very fulfilling answer!

 

Everyone is entitled to possess and express an opinion, and everyone else is free to evaluate the merits of that opinion as it relates to them; differing points of view are probably a significant reason that people read and post here. I wouldn't have it any other way. I'd much rather have full disclosure and know exactly what I'm buying, which is why I had asked if I should cancel my cruise on Zuiderdam. This wasn't sarcasm or drama, but a genuine question as to whether this ship and HAL are worth a week of my time and a not-insignificant amount of money. I respect KK for posting a comprehensive and detailed review, even if it wasn't what I might like to hear--I now wish that I had waited for her full review before raising my voice. I allowed my own unspoken doubts about the ship to surface with force, and the mental image of spending a badly needed vacation aboard a broken-down wreck was simply too much for me to bear at that moment.

 

With that said...I'll now apologize if my post on this thread or my "what's the truth" thread has amplified the controversy or caused any hard feelings, or if I've spoken out of turn. This was not my intention. I don't know KK and she doesn't know me--there was no personal malice or flaming intended on my end (I think you'd even come to like me if we were assigned to the same table :)). I can't believe how far this has gone and how ugly it's become, but the fact that the hosts haven't pulled it is an amazing tribute to the open exchange of ideas. How very sad that we're fighting about cruising, something we all supposedly have in common. If it will help, you may now flame me to ash and I'll keep quiet.

 

(But just to show that I can be humble without completely caving :D ...I would like to know why it's assumed that Zuiderdam's rough wear is the result of mischief by the dreaded "younger crowd"? These generalizations come pretty frequently, and they sting me every time. I'm 28, and I treat every ship with even more care than I show my own home! I'll gladly admit that there are plenty of idiots my age, and every age...but would young people capable of this kind of senseless vandalism even choose to cruise HAL in the first place? This is one area where the Carnival stereotype is sadly accurate.)

[heartofamerica]

Talk about "nit-picky"!!!! Let up! (... I've always said "knit picky" ... is that wrong? Probably:D ).

[/color][/size][/font]

 

Actually, "nit pick" references picking the eggs of lice (nits) from one's hair. Very small bugs...very difficult to see and find.

 

I am well aware that nothing in life is perfect. When I took my first cruise, it was on Celebrity Horizon. I turned to the boards to get an idea of what to expect. Judging from what I read, I was expecting worn carpets, rust, and "mediocre" entertainment, but good food. What I found was a ship that might have needed the stateroom decor updated a bit, but a crew that was polishing and painting at almost every port..yes, I did notice some small parts of rust, but those were quickly covered with a coat of paint in port. I also found some great food, enjoyable shows, and a fabulous time.

 

When I was booked on the Zuiderdam last year, I was expecting vomit inducing colors, a vibration in the dining room so severe that eating might be virtually impossible, food that was "less than good", service that was lagging, a sewage stench that permeated the ship. What I found was colors that were loud but not offensive, a vibration that was so minor as to not be noticeable, no smells, great food, and fantastic service.

 

So who do we believe? I dunno. I do think that since the Zuiderdam is a departure from the "traditional" HAL ships, many "experienced cruisers" find it to be a shock to their senses. I'll find out in June when I take my wife, who has cruised on the Noordam a few years ago. But that doesn't mean it's bad...it's just not what you are used to.

 

The Zuiderdam is geared to a younger demographic...HAL pretty much admits that - Heck...from what I've also read on some cruise boards , the average age for the typical HAL cruise was anywhere from AARP eligible to near dead. The Zuiderdam cruise I was on last year had ages ranging from late 20's to 80+. And yes, there were kids...but since I brought one myself, it didn't really bother me. In fact, both cruises I took were over spring break, and the Horizon seemed to have a LOT of high school/college age kids who were drinking, carousing, and passing out all over the ship. I didn't notice that at all on the Zuiderdam. Despite that, I did hear some folks grumbling about what a horrible cruise it was. It amazed me that I was on the same cruise ship with them.

[ryansmemom]

I just want to add my two cents here. There are some people who post on this board who have an incredible amount of experience on HAL ships and cruises in general. The people who have been around for a while know who they are. We all respect and appreciate their opinions and expect that they have a level of appreciation for the "Dam" ships that the rest of us do not share simply because we do not have the experience they have.

 

Yonnie and Joe (Krazy Kruizers) are two people who have this level of expertise. It's like they have PhD's in HAL. As such they have earned the respect of all of the veteran posters here on the HAL board. Chimera and I sailed with them on the Maasdam in 2003 and enjoyed their company. We are looking forward to being with them later this year on the Veendam. They are very special people.

 

This post is very personal. Yonnie and Joe, I certainly hope you take it that way. I do not think people who are new to the board are aware of your vast experience. I do not think they read your posts in that light. We who know you, know you are not griping. We know you love HAL. We know you are reporting your experience. We know you had a good time. If you didn't why in the world would you spend all that time onboard a HAL ship?

 

Linda

[stormyc]

KK -

I, for one, would very much like to hear about the Comedy Cooking Cake, as I have no idea what this is.

Would you be so kind as to share what this is?

Thank you,

[DavidNDC]

Rather than bicker back and forth as to whether this person or that person is being flamed or whether this review or that review is being treated fairly, I have a proposal:

 

1. Read Ray-Barbara's review and comments of the May 14 Zuiderdam.

2. Read KK's comments of the May 7-21 Zuiderdam.

 

Then decide for yourself. Let merit rise.

[fredandbeth]

Hmmmm.... Thanks KK for your honest opinion..... I think what alot of people are trying to say and are missing is this....

 

Based on the responses to this post, you are obviously a seasoned cruiser with lots of HAL experience. However when I came to read this post... I had no way to know that. You don't have a signature so I don't know if this is your 2nd cruise or your 20th cruise. I don't know if you're always finding fault or always being honest?

 

I am going on the Z next week and it was/is disheartening to come to the boards and suddenly see all the negative posts about a ship I spent thousands of dollars to sail on. Perhaps a little introduction before your review would alleviate alot of the unneccessary "flaming" and bickering.

 

I would never want to not know what to expect on a cruise but would really like to know what I have to look forward to as well. I just believe for the newer CC members the post was misleading as I know you enjoyed yourself and will continue to sail HAL.

 

Again thanks for your great information and feedback. Maybe one day I'll have the pleasure of sailing with you as well.

[AirGorilla]

Define "cutesy".......

 

:rolleyes: :confused:

 

It would be tough to make a "cutesy" towel GORILLA!!!