Solar eclipse cruise

[Aus Traveller]

The Pacific Dawn may not have been docked, but it was not in a position to be mobile had circumstances called for that. A ship should be scheduled to be at sea, with at least a few hours leeway to take its best shot at clear skies. Feedback is the point of forums like these so no offense taken at all and I appreciate the correction on Pacific Dawn, though the fundamentals of my criticism remain. My comments on the Oosterdam were based upon the detailed trip report above, which was supported by a couple of other posters on SEML.

 

P&O is obviously not a cruise line that should be trusted for an eclipse cruise. One ship was locked into a near fixed location and the other was dispatched on such a tight schedule that it missed the total eclipse completely.

 

is an astounding statement of ignorance.

 

The likely reason is that it burns more fuel to travel at a faster speed, as with cars or planes. IMHO the Captain and/or cruise line was being cheap and not willing to spend the extra fuel $ to reach

Re the Pacific Dawn. It would have been clear to anyone booking this cruise that it was the usual 7 day Q'ld coast cruise although the sequence of ports was adjusted so the ship would be within the path of totality on eclipse day. With the eclipse starting only a few minutes after dawn, I still cannot see that having the ship actually moving at the time would have been helpful when the sky had cloud scattered all over the sky. It wasn't as if there was a big area of clear sky that the ship could head for. Even a lot of people on shore missed totality because of cloud, and they were much more mobile than a ship.

 

On the Pacific Dawn, I estimate that maybe one-quarter of the passengers went on the cruise to see the eclipse, a half found out about the eclipse after they booked, and the remaining quarter only found out after they boarded. Whether or not they booked the cruise because of the eclipse, everyone was "blown away".

 

I cannot disagree with your comments regarding the Pacific Jewel. I wonder who the "expert" was who advised the captain that a 99% eclipse was as good as a total eclipse. :(

[Tony8489]

On the Pacific Dawn, I estimate that maybe one-quarter of the passengers went on the cruise to see the eclipse, a half found out about the eclipse after they booked, and the remaining quarter only found out after they boarded. Whether or not they booked the cruise because of the eclipse, everyone was "blown away".

Fair enough. If not promoted as an "eclipse cruise" I would agree the Pacific Dawn was managed acceptably. Feedback is often useful on these forums to get to the truth and provide useful info for future trips. I had more precise information about the Oosterdam than the Pacific Dawn in my original post.

 

For those booking "eclipse cruises" in the future, we should learn from the contrasting experiences in 2012 among the cruise ship operators in terms of who took the eclipse seriously and who didn't. Ask questions before you sign up for an eclipse tour. Does a cruise ship have an astronomy/weather consultant with a good reputation and preferably prior eclipse experience? Is the ship captain committed to working cooperatively with him/her? If an astronomy specialist tour operator is marketing the cruise (like Travelquest did for both Paul Gauguin and Celebrity Millennium), they will have generally done the due diligence to determine that seeing the eclipse is a top priority.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Tony8489

[Aus Traveller]

Lecturers are part of the Entertainment team that is headed by the Cruise Director and do not have any influence on the running of the ship by the Captain and the Bridge officers. I was rather surprised that the Captain of the Pacific Jewel actually consulted an "eclipse expert" but I don't know who that was.

 

The Pacific Dawn did have an eclipse expert on board as a lecturer. :) He has seen many eclipses and gave an informative talk prior to the eclipse and had a telescope and a solar viewer (Solarscope?) on deck during the eclipse so passengers could see the eclipse in more detail and/or ask questions. There were no public announcements during the eclipse. I heard that the reason given was that it was very early in the morning and many passengers would still be asleep. As an aside, that also included someone who booked the cruise to see the eclipse and slept through his alarm. :(

 

Eclipse glasses were given out to all passengers on the Pacific Dawn, Pacific Jewel, Dawn Princess and Sea Princess (in NZ). I don't know about other ships.

[99 percenter]

I cannot disagree with your comments regarding the Pacific Jewel. I wonder who the "expert" was who advised the captain that a 99% eclipse was as good as a total eclipse.

 

The message from the astronomer to the audience at the first 'lecture' (which was meant to be about total eclipses) when he broke the news that we weren't going to reach the path of totality, was that the viewer got 99% of the total eclipse experience with a 99% partial eclipse. For those in the audience who didn't know better, this sounded logical. He failed to mention that you don't get the Bailey's Beads, the corona, the magnetic lines, the shadow bands, the planets and stars in the sky, day turning to night, the sunset colours in the horizon, the Moon Shadow approaching...

 

The other passengers thought we were being completely unreasonable in our (collective) distress because they thought we were making a fuss about missing 1% of the spectacle, when we knew we were missing everything that we had chosen that cruise for.

 

This wasn't helped by Captain Stefano Ravera and the other P&O crew continuing this fiction for the next 8 days (eg the Navigator stated in his blog of Wednesday 14 November that we had seen "one of the most spectacular astronomical phenomena this morning"). We know the Captain had never seen a total eclipse but we didn't know whether the astronomer (who was NOT Rodger MacQueen as P&O announced by media release on 20 August 2012) had seen one. After the event, one of our associates asked the astronomer if he had ever seen a total solar eclipse and he confirmed that this was his first. He was/is a galactic expert and not an 'eclipse-chaser'. I'm not going to name him and I don't intend to say anything about him other than the facts.

 

What we don't know is whether the astronomer is or was aware that the Captain sheeted home responsiblity to him for missing the eclipse. This is because the astronomer wasn't there when the Captain told 20 of us he'd been relying on the astronomer's advice in deciding that a 99% partial eclipse was sufficient.

 

Regarding the contractual issues: P&O purported to enter a well established industry with specific standards. One of the standards is that cruise providers guarantee to get the ship into to the path of totality (except for events totally outside the company's control and/or possible prior knowledge). If P&O had advertised its cruise as not guaranteeing this critical element, then no eclipse chasers would have spent their money on it. Instead, in its advertising and media releases in 2012, P&O stated that Pacific Jewel offered viewers "prime position" at the "total solar eclipse". It was doing its best to attract bona fide eclipse chasers.

 

It is also clear that P&O had 2 years to inform itself what the contractual obligations were in the total solar eclipse industry and what it needed to do to meet the contractual obligations. It also had 2 years to inform itself of its obligations under The Australian Consumer Law - which was to provide a service that was fit for the purpose, provide it with due care and skill, and to provide it at a reasonable time. Prime position (as promised) and 'fit for purpose' is not 30 nautical miles outside the path of totality.

 

It is clear from notices to passengers that P&O first identified the need to leave earlier over a year before departure when it changed the normal departure time of 4pm to 2pm. The notice that went out on 24 October 2011 stated that the initial departure 4pm time was "an error". A second notice was sent a year later on 24 October 2012, but this time the 2pm departure was linked to getting to the "required" eclipse position in time. No-one we have spoken to thought this meant that we wouldn't get into the path of totality at all. If it had said that, we certainly would not have boarded the ship and taken that risk.

 

Even as late as Monday night (the day before the announcement that we would miss totality), P&O stated in its daily publication that we were going to see a "total" solar eclipse and provided eclipse timings that indicated we would reach the path of totality. There was also a ship's navigation chart on display that had '25 degrees south, 163 degrees east' marked as the 'eclipse position' for 14 November (which was very close to the centreline). It is clear P&O identified the importance of getting as close as possible to the centreline.

 

Astronomers have subsequently calculated that the ship had 820 nautical miles to go to the centreline when it left Sydney Heads at 3pm. We had 41 hours to do this, with a ship that had a top speed of 20 knots (as advised by the Captain). In retrospect, we can see that this meant we had to travel at top speed all the way. This would not be possible with the well known and predictable current and head-wind against us. Not rocket science, but clearly navigation that was beyond P&O. Also, at that time, we weren't aware that the Pacific Jewel had significant engine problems in January 2012 when cruising in NZ - apparently some ports were dropped from the itinerary as a result.

 

For our cruise - the back end of the ship vibrated alarmingly (ie it was not comfortable to eat at a table in that area) the entire voyage, especially at high speed, so we're all starting to put some context behind the Captain's claim that he was thinking of the "safety of the other passengers" and balancing that against the 'fact' that 99% partial eclipse was sufficient, when deciding that there was no real need to travel at full speed to get to the totality path.

 

We know of 50 people who booked this cruise purely because the advertised eclipse position (where the route of J236 intersected the centreline) offered one of best positions to view the eclipse in relation to three elements - the weather prospects, the altitude of the Sun in the sky and the duration of the eclipse. Some came from as far as Moscow (2), Poland (8), Japan (7) and the USA (2). As a result, many of us are asking for a full refund, or a refund plus costs of travel to and from Sydney.

Edited December 10, 2012 by 99 percenter
Hadn't finished the post

[Aus Traveller]

He failed to mention that you don't get the Bailey's Beads, the corona, the magnetic lines, the shadow bands, the planets and stars in the sky, day turning to night, the sunset colours in the horizon, the Moon Shadow approaching...

... In other words, all of the phenomena that make a total solar eclipse an event of a lifetime. :( I cannot imagine how disappointed and upset the eclipse chasers were.

[99 percenter]

Lecturers are part of the Entertainment team that is headed by the Cruise Director and do not have any influence on the running of the ship by the Captain and the Bridge officers. I was rather surprised that the Captain of the Pacific Jewel actually consulted an "eclipse expert" but I don't know who that was.

 

The Pacific Dawn did have an eclipse expert on board as a lecturer. :) He has seen many eclipses and gave an informative talk prior to the eclipse and had a telescope and a solar viewer (Solarscope?) on deck during the eclipse so passengers could see the eclipse in more detail and/or ask questions. There were no public announcements during the eclipse. I heard that the reason given was that it was very early in the morning and many passengers would still be asleep. As an aside, that also included someone who booked the cruise to see the eclipse and slept through his alarm. :(

 

Eclipse glasses were given out to all passengers on the Pacific Dawn, Pacific Jewel, Dawn Princess and Sea Princess (in NZ). I don't know about other ships.

 

That is pretty awful re the people who slept through the eclipse. Owwwww. :(:(:(

 

Just to clarify - the Captain of the Pacific Jewel did not refer to the astronomer as an 'eclipse expert' but said he was relying on "expert advice" in deciding not to make every effort to reach the path of totality. The advice was that 99% partial eclipse was as good as 100% of a total solar eclipse (or so close to it that no-one would notice the difference).

 

We also had on-board astronomy talks but could not attend them after the debacle regarding the eclipse - and so that was another element of the cruise we'd been looking forward to that was lost to us.

Edited December 10, 2012 by 99 percenter

[Tony8489]

After the event, one of our associates asked the astronomer if he had ever seen a total solar eclipse and he confirmed that this was his first.

Actually his count remains zero for reasons several of us have explained.

I'm not going to name him and I don't intend to say anything about him other than the facts.

If you are confident you have your facts right, I see no reason NOT to name the person most responsible for this debacle.

Edited December 16, 2012 by Tony8489

[bazzaw]

I would be interested to know EXACTLY what advertising was done by P&O for these "so-called" eclipse cruises. Was the cruise advertised as though the eclipse was the primary purpose of this cruise? - or more a suggestion that you might see it , in the same way as you MIGHT land at Mystery Island (if the weather is right or IF the Captain thinks it is safe to do so, etc)

 

It seems to me that anybody who is REALLY keen to see an eclipse should arrange themselves to be in a position where sight of the eclipse is GUARANTEED (local cloud cover notwithstanding) . There is NOTHING guaranteed when at sea!!! And none of us know, understand or even appreciate what the Captain of a ship is contending with when he makes HIS decision on any matter. Hence, it seems to me that a ship is not an ideal platform to view an eclipse - IF you wish to have "guarantees" of sight.

 

Barry

Edited December 16, 2012 by bazzaw

[Aus Traveller]

I would be interested to know EXACTLY what advertising was done by P&O for these "so-called" eclipse cruises. Was the cruise advertised as though the eclipse was the primary purpose of this cruise? - or more a suggestion that you might see it , in the same way as you MIGHT land at Mystery Island (if the weather is right or IF the Captain thinks it is safe to do so, etc)

 

It seems to me that anybody who is REALLY keen to see an eclipse should arrange themselves to be in a position where sight of the eclipse is GUARANTEED (local cloud cover notwithstanding) . There is NOTHING guaranteed when at sea!!! And none of us know, understand or even appreciate what the Captain of a ship is contending with when he makes HIS decision on any matter. Hence, it seems to me that a ship is not an ideal platform to view an eclipse - IF you wish to have "guarantees" of sight.

 

Barry

Barry,

The cruises were marketed at "eclipse cruises". The wording for Pacific Dawn was "View the solar eclipse on W240" and for the Pacific Jewel "View the solar eclipse on J236". It didn't say "Have the opportunity to ......" or "Maybe see .....".

 

With some eclipses, the most reasonable option is to see it from a cruise ship, although with this eclipse, around 60,000 people travelled to the Cairns area to see it. Those on the Esplanade in Cairns missed totality because of cloud and most of those on the coast north to Port Douglas saw it (or part of totality anyway). Our original plan (several years ago) was to be based inland from Port Douglas (maybe Palmer River Roadhouse), but for several reasons, we changed to the cruise option. Luckily it worked out well.

 

I do understand the point that you make about the Captain of a cruiseship having many point to consider, but I am sure the eclipse chasers on board would have felt better if they believed that everything possible had been done to make sure the ship was in the correct position.

Edited December 16, 2012 by Aus Traveller

[bazzaw]

Barry,

The cruises were marketed at "eclipse cruises". The wording for Pacific Dawn was "View the solar eclipse on W240" and for the Pacific Jewel "View the solar eclipse on J236". It didn't say "Have the opportunity to ......" or "Maybe see .....".

 

 

The lesson that I have learned from all this --

 

If these cruises were marketed/advertised this way (and I have no reason to doubt that) - then I think my lesson for all of this is "BUYER BEWARE". Yes - false advertising/marketing should not happen -- but we should also remember that "a fool and his money are soon parted". IF I see a cruise being advertised as an "eclipse cruise" - and it was sailing to some point in the Pacific Ocean and nowhere else, then I would know that it indeed was a "solar eclipse cruise" :D However, if it also conveniently coincides with the port visits of a normal cruise, I will regard it as a marketing opportunity on the part of the cruiseline - and it may or may not happen. What WILL happen is that the ship will undertake the regular cruise and carry out the regular port visits as planned - if possible. In other words, the so-called and advertised "special purpose" is really only a sideshow and cannot be guaranteed.

 

Barry

[cjm66]

Oops - photo would not load

Edited December 16, 2012 by cjm66

[99 percenter]

If you are confident you have your facts right, I see no reason NOT to name the person most responsible for this debacle.

 

One reason for not naming the astronomer is that we can't know whether P&O was acting on the advice of the astronomer (as P&O claims) or whether the astronomer was just acting under instructions from P&O. Making the claim to passengers (as the astronomer did) that the 99% partial eclipse was equivalent to 99% of a total solar eclipse will always be scientifically insupportable and this person works as professional astronomer. He has to live with himself from this point on.

 

In any event, the legal responsibility for getting us to the eclipse lay with P&O, not with the astronomer. If P&O is found to have failed to deliver the consumer 'guarantees' that are granted in Australia under consumer protection laws, and if P&O did so on the incorrect scientific advice from the astronomer, then that will be a matter for P&O to sort out internally with this astronomer.

 

Providing the astronomer's name on a public board really has no relevance to resolving the issue with P&O and would only serve to humiliate and embarrass a person who is probably already severely embarrassed and humiliated.

 

Interestingly, a P&O representative has started responding to the separate complaints from the passengers and has written:

"I

respect the fact that you have a deep personal and scientific interest in solar events and that

being in position for 99% of the total eclipse event

disappointed you.

"

This statement puts into writing the oral advice Captain Ravera and the astronomer provided passengers of Pacific Jewel. P&O has refused to consider any remedies so far. P&O didn't even offer the $100 discount off the next cruise that it normally offers to disgruntled passengers. We're all starting to look to the next eclipse in Australia (annular, May 2013) but will keep everyone posted.

[99 percenter]

Barry,

The cruises were marketed at "eclipse cruises". The wording for Pacific Dawn was "View the solar eclipse on W240" and for the Pacific Jewel "View the solar eclipse on J236". It didn't say "Have the opportunity to ......" or "Maybe see ....."

 

As late as 20 August 2012, P&O issued a media release that seems to have been aimed at any last minute 'would-be eclipse-chasers', stating that both the Pacific Jewel and the Pacific Dawn offered a "prime position to watch the event". The event was "a rare total solar eclipse". As the prime position to watch a total solar eclipse can only be within the path of totality, then this was an undertaking that the ship was going to be where it needed to be for passengers to see the total solar eclipse.

 

http://www.pocruises.com.au/AboutUs/News/Pages/po-cruises-offers-best-view-of-solar-eclipse.aspx

 

In November 2011 (a year earlier) P&O had written:

 

"With 2012 set to be an important astronomical year, P&O Cruises is also offering special itineraries to include the rare total solar eclipse best viewed from north-east Australia on November 14, 2012."

 

http://www.pocruises.com.au/AboutUs/News/Pages/gaua-water-music-experience,-santa-maria-island,-vanuatu.aspx

 

To those who don't cruise a lot, this sounds as though the cruise is being created as an eclipse cruise.

[Aus Traveller]

One reason for not naming the astronomer is that we can't know whether P&O was acting on the advice of the astronomer (as P&O claims) or whether the astronomer was just acting under instructions from P&O. Making the claim to passengers (as the astronomer did) that the 99% partial eclipse was equivalent to 99% of a total solar eclipse will always be scientifically insupportable and this person works as professional astronomer. He has to live with himself from this point on.

 

In any event, the legal responsibility for getting us to the eclipse lay with P&O, not with the astronomer. If P&O is found to have failed to deliver the consumer 'guarantees' that are granted in Australia under consumer protection laws, and if P&O did so on the incorrect scientific advice from the astronomer, then that will be a matter for P&O to sort out internally with this astronomer.

 

Providing the astronomer's name on a public board really has no relevance to resolving the issue with P&O and would only serve to humiliate and embarrass a person who is probably already severely embarrassed and humiliated.

 

Interestingly, a P&O representative has started responding to the separate complaints from the passengers and has written:

"I

respect the fact that you have a deep personal and scientific interest in solar events and that

being in position for 99% of the total eclipse event

disappointed you.

"

This statement puts into writing the oral advice Captain Ravera and the astronomer provided passengers of Pacific Jewel. P&O has refused to consider any remedies so far. P&O didn't even offer the $100 discount off the next cruise that it normally offers to disgruntled passengers. We're all starting to look to the next eclipse in Australia (annular, May 2013) but will keep everyone posted.

I respect you reasons for not naming the astronomer on board. There isn't any point and (as you say) it isn't known if he gave the advice to the captain.

 

You mentioned (as did a friend who was on board) that the Astronomer did say in his talk the day before the eclipse, that 99% was a good as a total eclipse. I feel he would only have said this if he believed it. I don't think P&O would have asked him to say it, and even if they did, he wouldn't have said it if he didn't agree with it.

 

Re the annular eclipse - I don't know if you have seen one. I have, and was rather disappointed. You probably know it is a "do-nut" shape and it wouldn't be much more exciting than the 99% eclipse. An annular eclipse also doesn't have all the other fantastic elements of a total eclipse that keep eclipse chasers travelling the world to be within the moon's shadow.

[Thorpe]

Oops - photo would not load

 

Hopefully you come back with your photo because I think you were also on the Oosterdam and can show we saw the total ecipse :)

[Tony8489]

You mentioned (as did a friend who was on board) that the Astronomer did say in his talk the day before the eclipse, that 99% was a good as a total eclipse. I feel he would only have said this if he believed it.

It is easy for a casual observer to assume that a 99% eclipse is 99% of the experience and I probably felt that way myself well into the 1990's. When I was scheduled to be on a family vacation in Europe in the summer of 1999, I was vaguely of the total eclipse on August 11 and did some casual web browsing in the fall of 1998. Within minutes of browsing I had found numerous websites explaining (and documenting with pictures) the unique features of totality. In response I adjusted our trip itinerary to drive 400 miles from Prague (where we were on August 10) to Lake Balaton in Hungary to get into the totality path.

 

14 years later it is truly incredible that a supposed astronomy advisor hired to advise the cruise failed to conduct the minimal amount of research needed to do his job properly. Again I wasn't there, but if these facts are correct, embarrassment and humiliation are entirely appropriate. This guy was at least probably given the cruise for free if not actually paid for the job he didn't do.

 

Re the annular eclipse - I don't know if you have seen one. I have, and was rather disappointed. You probably know it is a "do-nut" shape and it wouldn't be much more exciting than the 99% eclipse. An annular eclipse also doesn't have all the other fantastic elements of a total eclipse that keep eclipse chasers travelling the world to be within the moon's shadow.

An annular eclipse is almost entirely the same a deep partial eclipse obscuring 80-99% of the sun. In terms of effect the only difference is that sun's bright photosphere is a ring instead of a crescent anywhere from a few seconds up to a max of 11 minutes. It can be worth a drive from where you live (as I did to Lake Powell last May from Los Angeles) but not flying halfway around the world unless you have a lot of other reasons for the trip.

 

There is NOTHING guaranteed when at sea!!! And none of us know, understand or even appreciate what the Captain of a ship is contending with when he makes HIS decision on any matter. Hence, it seems to me that a ship is not an ideal platform to view an eclipse - IF you wish to have "guarantees" of sight.

There have been commercial eclipse cruises since 1972. Some have been clouded out and a few of those had uncooperative captains who chose not to evade clouds like the Oosterdam. But the Pacific Jewel is the only example I know of failing to be positioned within the totality zone. Unless you have stringent photography demands for a stable platform, a cruise can be the preferred way to see an eclipse because of the ability to monitor weather and evade clouds, particularly when convenient land options are limited or have dicey weather prospects. The Celebrity Millennium, which was between ports in Fiji and New Zealand, altered its course based upon the previous day's weather forecast.

 

However, if it also conveniently coincides with the port visits of a normal cruise, I will regard it as a marketing opportunity on the part of the cruiseline - and it may or may not happen. What WILL happen is that the ship will undertake the regular cruise and carry out the regular port visits as planned - if possible. In other words, the so-called and advertised "special purpose" is really only a sideshow and cannot be guaranteed.

As many of you know port calls are not guaranteed either. The fine print in cruise contracts gives passengers very few rights. However, it is easier to get a ship into a geographic area at sea ~80 miles wide and hundreds of miles long than into a specific port that might have local weather issues. Most regular cruisers know by word of mouth if not personal experience many examples of cancelled port calls but I'm fairly sure this case with an eclipse is a first.

 

The Millennium was on a normal repositioning itinerary. So at face value Celebrity's marketing may not have looked any different than Holland America's or P&O's. Only with some research could one determine that some of the Millennium's cabins were being sold through specialty astronomy tour companies. These companies presumably received assurances in advance that the cruise line and captain were committed to the eclipse.

 

The Pacific Jewel passengers should make as loud a stink as possible in any possible media. P&O deserves to take a hit in bad publicity and reduced demand for future cruises if they don't compensate the Pacific Jewel passengers.

Edited December 21, 2012 by Tony8489

[Denro55]

I was on the Dawn Princess with my family!

[Aus Traveller]

The next cruise with an itinerary designed to give an opportunity to see a total solar eclipse (weather permitting) is the Sea Princess cruise to Japan leaving Sydney on 28th March. It will intercept the path of totality south of Singapore.