So what's wrong with Norfolk?

[jwalk03]

Norfolk makes (made) sense for Carnival when they were repositing a ship north to New England during the summer months. A couple of quick stops in Norfolk on the way to NE (MARCH), and on the way from NE back to Florida (OCTOBER). Since Carnival has decided that it is not worth moving a ship to NE this year to do NE/CANADA trips, (and will instead be using the Splendor from NYC to do this trips) it just doesnt make any sense to send a ship to Norfolk.

 

In the future if Carnival again decides that it is a good business decision to re-deploy another ship to New England during the warmer months, Norfolk will most likely get a few cruises as well before and after the repositioning.

 

In my view this decision has very little to do with Norfolk itself, and everything to do with the decision not to send an extra ship north for the Summer.

[jwalk03]

Norfolk is 0 miles from Virginia Beach (as in, their borders touch), which is the most populous city in the state of Virginia. Norfolk itself is the second most populous, and Chesapeake (also borders Norfolk) is the 3rd. And that doesn't include the rest of the "seven cities." Norfolk is SURROUNDED by other cities. Richmond doesn't hold a candle.

 

 

Norfolk is also a 3-3.5 hour drive from DC.

 

 

 

I don't see why it has to be a regular basis (although of course us locals would love that.) There was nothing wrong with having a ship here part time, and the ship we did have part time was the Glory which is larger than the Triumph.

 

~Katy

 

Lets compare: (Rank by population)

NYC: 19 million (1st)

Philly: 6 million (6th)

Washington: 5.8 million (7th)

Baltimore: 2.7 million (20th)

 

As for Virginia, yes VA Beach (Chesapeake & Norfolk are counted as part of the VA Beach metro area) is the largest urban area in the state (after DC of course), but population is only 1.7 million which ranks 37th. Richmond would be the next closest at 1.2 million (44th). So clearly the population center around Baltimore is SIGNIFICANTLY more than the population centered around Norfolk.

[kgymn]

Norfolk makes (made) sense for Carnival when they were repositing a ship north to New England during the summer months. A couple of quick stops in Norfolk on the way to NE (MARCH), and on the way from NE back to Florida (OCTOBER). Since Carnival has decided that it is not worth moving a ship to NE this year to do NE/CANADA trips, (and will instead be using the Splendor from NYC to do this trips) it just doesnt make any sense to send a ship to Norfolk.

 

In the future if Carnival again decides that it is a good business decision to re-deploy another ship to New England during the warmer months, Norfolk will most likely get a few cruises as well before and after the repositioning.

 

In my view this decision has very little to do with Norfolk itself, and everything to do with the decision not to send an extra ship north for the Summer.

 

 

 

 

this definitely makes the mist sense, but then leads to the question of why we can't have a ship year round, how do we compare to and thus compete with Charleston?

 

 

Lets compare: (Rank by population)

NYC: 19 million (1st)

Philly: 6 million (6th)

Washington: 5.8 million (7th)

Baltimore: 2.7 million (20th)

 

As for Virginia, yes VA Beach (Chesapeake & Norfolk are counted as part of the VA Beach metro area) is the largest urban area in the state (after DC of course), but population is only 1.7 million which ranks 37th. Richmond would be the next closest at 1.2 million (44th). So clearly the population center around Baltimore is SIGNIFICANTLY more than the population centered around Norfolk.

 

I wasn't trying to say the Norfolk area is comparable to Baltimore, I was simply correcting the misconception that Norfolk is not in a metropolitan area and that Richmond is the closest metro area.

 

But, I don't think you can say that Hampton roads is biggest in va next to dc, since dc isn't in Virginia.

 

eta: looking more at some of the details, I think it makes perfect sense to be comparing us to Charleston VS Baltimore. We may be closer to Baltimore, but the sailings out of Charleston and Norfolk are more similar. VA Beach metro area is ranked 37th in the country, Charleston in ranked 78th yet they have a cruise chip year round. This isn't a battle between Norfolk and Baltimore (though we are driving distance for many who sail out of Baltimore, including those who live in Baltimore) It's more a battle between Norfolk and Charleston, if anything.

 

~Katy

[jwalk03]

DC itself isn't in VA, but the metro area certainly extends into VA, and even without counting the district itself or Any Maryland population, I'm pretty sure it's the largest population center in the state of VA.

[kgymn]

Interesting thing to consider, if comparing Baltimore and Norfolk as cruise ports. All Baltimore and Norfolk cruises enter the Atlantic at roughly the same location, all sail over the chesapeake bay bridge tunnel which connects the eastern shore of VA to Hampton Roads near the VA Beach side of the VA Beach/Norfolk border. How much longer do the casinos on ships out of Baltimore have to wait to open? Considering the fact that Norfolk can accomodate a larger ship, and is in fact closer to the locations they sail to out of Baltimore, why not move the ship from Baltimore to Norfolk? I don't think ANY demographic comparison here makes any sense, Baltimore and Norfolk are only 4 hours apart. Many people from Baltimore would sail out of Norfolk if there weren't Baltimore options. Norfolk they are more likely (if they marketed better) to get people who wouldn't cruise otherwise. If the demographic in Baltimore has more disposable income, it stands to reason they'd be able to spend the extra, what, $50-$100 to drive to New York or Norfolk... they would still cruise.

 

I'm pretty sure Carnival didn't choose its other ports based on the things people are counting as negatives for Norfolk, like the size or wealth of the local population.

 

~Katy

[Cruizinman]

I have no desire to drive or fly north when you get the same ports going south, and at a cheaper price most of the time.....

[bguppies]

this definitely makes the mist sense, but then leads to the question of why we can't have a ship year round, how do we compare to and thus compete with Charleston?

 

 

 

 

I wasn't trying to say the Norfolk area is comparable to Baltimore, I was simply correcting the misconception that Norfolk is not in a metropolitan area and that Richmond is the closest metro area.

 

But, I don't think you can say that Hampton roads is biggest in va next to dc, since dc isn't in Virginia.

 

eta: looking more at some of the details, I think it makes perfect sense to be comparing us to Charleston VS Baltimore. We may be closer to Baltimore, but the sailings out of Charleston and Norfolk are more similar. VA Beach metro area is ranked 37th in the country, Charleston in ranked 78th yet they have a cruise chip year round. This isn't a battle between Norfolk and Baltimore (though we are driving distance for many who sail out of Baltimore, including those who live in Baltimore) It's more a battle between Norfolk and Charleston, if anything.

 

~Katy

 

What did you use to base these rankings on??? (just curious)

 

Charleston proper is actually the smallest part of the metro area.

Every one of the suburbs is actually larger than Charleston itself...

 

Having grown up in Washington/Baltimore area and having visited Virgina Beach/Norfolk numerous times (although over 15 years ago now) and having lived in the Charleston area for 14 years now, outside of Norfolk having a much larger base than Charleston does, the rest is similarily sized...

 

And seriously, how many sailors get off their tour and return to Norfolk and want to take a cruise? (my Wife's best friend's husband is retired Navy and took us all ganging up on him for 4 years after he retired, to get him on a cruise.)

 

I'm honestly surprised cruiselines haven't tried more cruises out of Baltimore, with so much disposible income, a VERY short drive away.

(NY, Philly, Balt. and DC are all closer drives, than the ultra rich Northern Virginia suburbs of DC are to Norfolk)

 

Bill

[TheEmerson]

While I can see Norfolk asking higher port fees than Baltimore that may be one issue in the usage of the cruise terminal.

 

 

• Norfolk Cruise terminal is inside the flood gate adding risk a ship may be prevented to set sail, or come back to port.
  
• NC Non local long term parking. I would not recommend parking overnight near Waterside.
  
• ORF Airport has few direct flights. *Note below
  
• There are plenty of direct flight to BWI, DCA, or IAD (if you must) that can feed Baltimore.
  
• Outside of going to the beach, there is not many tourist friendly things outside of the Williamsburg area.
  
• Norfolk Mass Transit is not great, but they are doing something about it. The light rail stop is in walking distance, but man is it a distance
  

Norfolk has a history of having some Neapolitan complex I have never been able to figure out. Building things for some odd reason. The cruise terminal, Nauticus, the MagLev (ODU and The Simpsons fit well with this one.), etc.

 

 

 

Flights to ORF: I grew up in the Hampton Roads. Went to collage, etc. I have friends and family there. But I always fly into DCA and take the four hour drive down. The cost for the next leg to ORF is always more expensive. I am getting a rental car anyways so why not take the drive and go by Pierce's BBQ on the way down.

[vakayaker]

So here I was trying to plan my May 2014 5-day cruise on Glory when I come across the info that there are no sailings out of Norfolk for 2014 and they "might" be back in 2015.

 

But what I can't seem to find is why? The port seems great to me, getting on and off the ship for our recent sold out 2-day CTN was a breeze....so why are they pulling out?

 

And for that matter, I foind out other lines like RCI used to operate in Norfolk too, but again, can't find a reason why outside of guesses.

 

Anyone know?

 

 

Everyone tickles me on this website with their speculations. If you look at the Carnival website, they are in the process of opening up all the 2014 sail dates. The Carnival Glory has been sailing the East Coast for a number of years and currently the schedule only goes to the end of April. I think you should sit back and wait for the remaining schedule to be posted.

 

As for why Half Moon does not have a full time ship, there are many but here are a couple of my pet peeves. Mayor Paul Fraim and his posse did not do a proper feasibility survey before they took the cities money and poured it into this facility. The city of Norfolk and the surrounding areas are full of US History, the problem is the city of Norfolk does not how to preserve/restore anything, their answer is to tear it down and build something newer. Who wants to go to a city that has nothing to contribute but crime, a water system that is over polluted, and a city council that does nothing for it's citizens than spend it's money unwisely. Secondly, the city of Norfolk is not anywhere near a "metropolitan city" or a major interstate for that matter. It's a city that is off the beaten path. Yes Virginia Beach is the most populous city in the state, and borders Norfolk, both of which are in the "Tidewater" or more recently used term, "Hampton Roads" area and many of the other cities have great things to offer. Simply put for these reasons, and probably many others that I haven't thought of, Norfolk will never have a full time ship at their Half Moon Facility.

 

Off my soap box now! :D

[kgymn]

What did you use to base these rankings on??? (just curious)

 

Charleston proper is actually the smallest part of the metro area.

Every one of the suburbs is actually larger than Charleston itself...

 

Having grown up in Washington/Baltimore area and having visited Virgina Beach/Norfolk numerous times (although over 15 years ago now) and having lived in the Charleston area for 14 years now, outside of Norfolk having a much larger base than Charleston does, the rest is similarily sized...

 

And seriously, how many sailors get off their tour and return to Norfolk and want to take a cruise? (my Wife's best friend's husband is retired Navy and took us all ganging up on him for 4 years after he retired, to get him on a cruise.)

 

I'm honestly surprised cruiselines haven't tried more cruises out of Baltimore, with so much disposible income, a VERY short drive away.

(NY, Philly, Balt. and DC are all closer drives, than the ultra rich Northern Virginia suburbs of DC are to Norfolk)

 

Bill

 

I got it from Wikipedia, in a table whose data was taken from a CSV file from census.gov with 2010, 2011, and 2012 census estimates. I know some people don't trust wikipedia, but there is a direct link to the CSV file on census.gov in the references so the data itself is from the US Census Bureau. The specific areas being "Virginia Beach-Norfolk-Newport News, VA-NC Metropolitan Statistical Area" and "Charleston-North Charleston, SC Metropolitan Statistical Area" so I would assume that includes the suburbs surrounding Charleston proper.

 

As far as sailors wanting to go on a cruise, my husband and his former roommate for two! His former roommate was actually quite disapointed he could not come with us on our last cruise. A lot of sailors are sailors because... well.. they like being on a ship (shocking, isn't it?) yes there are those who'd rather not go on a cruise, but I know plenty who are fond of the idea. And even an interior room is ultimate luxury to them! Also, Navy is not the only branch we have here. Every branch of the US Military has at least one base within an hour drive of Norfolk... we the pool of people who would not be able to get leave until relatively short notice includes Army, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, as well as Navy.

 

~Katy

[Ms. Fun Bunch]

Thanks Fun Bunch. How far from the terminal is it?

 

It's like a 10 min. walk if you use the door in the rear of the restaurant that leads to the pier.

[Ms. Fun Bunch]

I just hope that if Carnival won't be using Norfolk that they will at least have a few CTN out of Baltimore next year.

[Eng23]

Everyone tickles me on this website with their speculations. If you look at the Carnival website, they are in the process of opening up all the 2014 sail dates. The Carnival Glory has been sailing the East Coast for a number of years and currently the schedule only goes to the end of April. I think you should sit back and wait for the remaining schedule to be posted.

 

As for why Half Moon does not have a full time ship, there are many but here are a couple of my pet peeves. Mayor Paul Fraim and his posse did not do a proper feasibility survey before they took the cities money and poured it into this facility. The city of Norfolk and the surrounding areas are full of US History, the problem is the city of Norfolk does not how to preserve/restore anything, their answer is to tear it down and build something newer. Who wants to go to a city that has nothing to contribute but crime, a water system that is over polluted, and a city council that does nothing for it's citizens than spend it's money unwisely. Secondly, the city of Norfolk is not anywhere near a "metropolitan city" or a major interstate for that matter. It's a city that is off the beaten path. Yes Virginia Beach is the most populous city in the state, and borders Norfolk, both of which are in the "Tidewater" or more recently used term, "Hampton Roads" area and many of the other cities have great things to offer. Simply put for these reasons, and probably many others that I haven't thought of, Norfolk will never have a full time ship at their Half Moon Facility.

 

Off my soap box now! :D

 

FYI: Carnival has already said they were dropping Norfolk for next year. It has nothing to do with 2014 scheduling. Norfolk is actually the metropolitan center of the greater Hampton Roads Statistical Area. This area encompasses all the major cities and surrounding counties to include Northeastern North Carolina. That is a population of roughly 1.7 million people.

 

Norfolk has 2 major interstates within it's boundaries, I-64 and I-264 plus State Highways 58, 13, and 60.

 

Those of us here would love to have a ship here year round but realize that will not happen. We really would like to keep a ship here part time as Carnival has done for over 10 years but now that is not going to happen.

 

If you compare Norfolk and the Port of Hampton Roads to other ports on the East Coast, the Norfolk area has the largest, deepest, and unobstructed (no bridges that restrict ship height) port available.

Granted the city leadership in Norfolk has made many questionable decisions in regard to the cruise terminal and there has been an overall lack of promoting the cruise industry. I still think if given the chance Norfolk can be and still is a very viable option for cruiseship's.

Off my soapbox now!

[Carnival_Brides]

I just hope that if Carnival won't be using Norfolk that they will at least have a few CTN out of Baltimore next year.

 

Our General Assembly views them as gambling cruises and since they're not getting a cut they have restricted them out of Baltimore--it's been like this since the early 90's. In exchange for not planning CTN's they get to open the casino once they hit the Key Bridge and don't have to close it until they hit the Key Bridge on the way back.

 

The one last year was a fluke because of the Hurricane.

[wanderingjew]

You beat me to the punch Don. I believe that the Glory will not be going north next year. We'll know for sure when the Glory's summer of 2014 sailings are finally revealed!!

that will be in Sept 14 LOL

[bguppies]

I got it from Wikipedia, in a table whose data was taken from a CSV file from census.gov with 2010, 2011, and 2012 census estimates. I know some people don't trust wikipedia, but there is a direct link to the CSV file on census.gov in the references so the data itself is from the US Census Bureau. The specific areas being "Virginia Beach-Norfolk-Newport News, VA-NC Metropolitan Statistical Area" and "Charleston-North Charleston, SC Metropolitan Statistical Area" so I would assume that includes the suburbs surrounding Charleston proper.

 

As far as sailors wanting to go on a cruise, my husband and his former roommate for two! His former roommate was actually quite disapointed he could not come with us on our last cruise. A lot of sailors are sailors because... well.. they like being on a ship (shocking, isn't it?) yes there are those who'd rather not go on a cruise, but I know plenty who are fond of the idea. And even an interior room is ultimate luxury to them! Also, Navy is not the only branch we have here. Every branch of the US Military has at least one base within an hour drive of Norfolk... we the pool of people who would not be able to get leave until relatively short notice includes Army, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, as well as Navy.

 

~Katy

 

Thanks for the info..

 

Yeah I never trust wikipedia for actual statistical facts... (usually just use it for entertainment info. )

 

Once we got our retired sailor on his first cruise, he has been on 3 or 4 since...:D

 

Bill

[dougandmo]

FYI: Carnival has already said they were dropping Norfolk for next year. It has nothing to do with 2014 scheduling. Norfolk is actually the metropolitan center of the greater Hampton Roads Statistical Area. This area encompasses all the major cities and surrounding counties to include Northeastern North Carolina. That is a population of roughly 1.7 million people.

 

Norfolk has 2 major interstates within it's boundaries, I-64 and I-264 plus State Highways 58, 13, and 60.

 

Those of us here would love to have a ship here year round but realize that will not happen. We really would like to keep a ship here part time as Carnival has done for over 10 years but now that is not going to happen.

 

If you compare Norfolk and the Port of Hampton Roads to other ports on the East Coast, the Norfolk area has the largest, deepest, and unobstructed (no bridges that restrict ship height) port available.

Granted the city leadership in Norfolk has made many questionable decisions in regard to the cruise terminal and there has been an overall lack of promoting the cruise industry. I still think if given the chance Norfolk can be and still is a very viable option for cruiseship's.

Off my soapbox now!

 

Norfolk undoubted has the best port for cruise ships, after all it does take in aircraft carriers. But Baltimore is much better positioned for customers. For better or worse Norfolk is a Navy town, and while I know there's plenty of Navy types on the boards here who love cruising, most Navy guys I know don't want to spend their leave on ships. For those of us who live up in DC, it's a lot closer to Baltimore than Norfolk. I only cruised out of Norfolk last year because it was much cheaper than going out of Baltimore. That's obviously not a good deal for Carnival. There may be demand out of Norfolk, but apparently there's more demand in other ports.

[bungee]

Norfolk is 0 miles from Virginia Beach (as in, their borders touch), which is the most populous city in the state of Virginia. Norfolk itself is the second most populous, and Chesapeake (also borders Norfolk) is the 3rd. And that doesn't include the rest of the "seven cities." Norfolk is SURROUNDED by other cities. Richmond doesn't hold a candle.

 

 

Norfolk is also a 3-3.5 hour drive from DC.

 

 

 

I don't see why it has to be a regular basis (although of course us locals would love that.) There was nothing wrong with having a ship here part time, and the ship we did have part time was the Glory which is larger than the Triumph.

 

~Katy

 

You definitely have provided a lot of information. Thank you for your time and effort. Have you ever been to Baltimore?

[kirasmom]

We did the ctn on 5.19 and she was full. It was a haul walking to terminal in the rain though

[whitecap]

First let me say that we are new to Carnival but have dealt with a fabulous TA and Carnival Representative who have treated us great.

Our first cruise was out of Norfolk and second out of Baltimore. Both cruises had things we really liked and some things that we didn't. Nothing that would stop us from cruising Carnival again.

That said, here is my concern with Carnival: how is it that all major cruise lines are able to publish their schedules in a timely manner while Carnival does it drip by drip; when asked specific questions you get the typical delay tactic answers, i.e. I have asked Carnival, John Hearld, TA, City of Norfolk, Norfolk Cruise Terminal and the Carnival Representative and all who answered either gave the typical delaying answers, "coming soon", "next week", "soon", "end of May", "first week of June" and so on or just didn't answer at all. Now the talk is how Carnival is going to "invest in Baltimore", new terminal, parking, additional ship(s) etc but no real facts and nothing official from Carnival. Isn't that the same thing that has happened in Charleston, "coming new terminal, more ships, better itineraries" and so on and if you ask anyone in Charleston or read any of the local newspapers, there has been no progress after years of hearing this.

I'm not sure how others do their cruise planning but DW and I sit down and plan 1 to 2 years in advance (as can be seen by my signature we have cruises set through April 2015). This is very hard to do with a cruise line that can't get their schedule out.

So, as a Carnival cruiser here is what I would like to see: Carnival publish your schedules timely; give Carnival Updates on your web site: what is going on in Charleston, plans for Baltimore, departure ports that are being dropped or added, new itineraries, etc; stop the "teasing" just as John Hearld's blog about the Triumph and his "coming surprises" etc tell us what you are doing to the Triumph to get us excited (a Guys Burger doesn't make or break a cruise selection) and calling our TA's telling them to get ready to book us.

Communication is the key to success!

[Carnival_Brides]

Now the talk is how Carnival is going to new terminal, parking, additional ship(s) etc but no real facts and nothing official from Carnival.

 

The terminal and parking is the city of Baltimore and State of Maryland, not CCL. They want those dollars because it brings in about $1 million dollars per cruise (about $90 million a year), so they want to invest in these new things, but don't want to be out the money like Mobile, should CCL and RCI chose to leave.

[whitecap]

The terminal and parking is the city of Baltimore and State of Maryland, not CCL. They want those dollars because it brings in about $1 million dollars per cruise (about $90 million a year), so they want to invest in these new things, but don't want to be out the money like Mobile, should CCL and RCI chose to leave.

 

Understand completely. It takes a commitment from both sides to make things happen. It just seems like with Carnival there is always a lot of talk, among cruisers, but no word from Carnival on their plans and for that reason there is speculation and rumor which is very frustrating.

[Carnival_Brides]

Understand completely. It takes a commitment from both sides to make things happen. It just seems like with Carnival there is always a lot of talk, among cruisers, but no word from Carnival on their plans and for that reason there is speculation and rumor which is very frustrating.

 

Agreed.

[Eng23]

We did the ctn on 5.19 and she was full. It was a haul walking to terminal in the rain though

The 5-19-2013 sailing was a 5 nighter. The CTN was on the 24th.

[Eng23]

The terminal and parking is the city of Baltimore and State of Maryland, not CCL. They want those dollars because it brings in about $1 million dollars per cruise (about $90 million a year), so they want to invest in these new things, but don't want to be out the money like Mobile, should CCL and RCI chose to leave.

And now you can add Norfolk to this list. The city dropped the money on a new terminal that the cruiselines wanted and now ALL of the cruiselines are pulling out of Norfolk. Norfolk had 4 cruiselines sailing from here when there was no purpose built terminal, the Nauticus Maritime Museum had to pinch hit as a cruise terminal. The cruiselines were like "build it and we will come/stay". Look where we are now. :(