HC cabin, AB pax

[Oceanwench]

This age-old topic is rearing its ugly head on the HAL boards now.

Feel free to jump in ... there needs to be more activism from those with disabilities!

 

People book an HC room -- knowingly sometimes, by mistake at others -- then justify it by claiming "We'll move if a handicapped person needs it."

 

We all know how that goes ... :(

 

With HAL Vista ships carrying up to 1,848 pax, there are 28 HC cabins.

That leaves a lot of choices for AB folks -- without taking the HC cabins away from those who need it.

 

Candy? Anybody?

[curiousjly]

I consider myself to be in the middle. I can get around but have limited mobility. I can't climb stairs, or inclines (depending on how steep). I can't walk long distances. I lose my balance easily, and due to back problems and medication I am overweight.

 

I can however, get in and out of a shower fine, and at present don't feel the need for a scooter (may have to later in life).

If I was given a HC room, by mistake, I would be calling and insisting on being given another one. The remark, "I would give it up if needed" may be true, but how do they know it was needed? Cruise lines I doubt care, they just fill the rooms.

 

So, it should be that these rooms are left till last, it should be a rule that ONLY HC get those rooms until the last few days, when it is down to the line, and then let anyone have them.

 

My two cents,

 

Jly

[JOJOHD]

The only people in the HC rooms should be people who need them- end of story. I will never understand the ignorancy of these people who take these rooms. I pray to God they don't have to live one minute in someone's shoes who could not go on a vacation if an accessible room was not available...let alone experience the pain that these people do every minute of their lives.

[Queenie2]

Do you have a link to the thread OW? I browsed the HAL board but couldn't find anything -- of course threads like these aren't titled "I'm a Moron who wants to book and accessible cabin cause they are cool and they have more room."

 

Thanks

 

Candy

[DEL67]

I not only absolutely agree that HC cabins should not be given out to AB passengers until the the last minute. I also feel that RCCL/Celebrity should make passengers reserving an HC cabin fill out a special needs form as HAL, Carnival and NCL make you do. I suppose that some AB passengers might lie, but it probably would stop others from trying to reserve HC cabins.

 

I also take another tact. Whenever the subject of HC cabins comes up on another board, I point out the disadvantages of them: leaking showers, less vanity storage space, etc.

[Splinter]

Perhaps you are talking about this thread?

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=200697&page=3&pp=25&highlight=accessible

 

You may also want to check out this thread:

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=187418&highlight=accessible

[Oceanwench]

Yes, that was the thread. Thanks, Splinter!

 

The woman who booked the room finally gave in and changed it! Yay! :)

 

Of course I was accused by another poster of browbeating her. Amazing how standing up for the rights of the disabled and trying to explain the need to leave HC rooms for the pax who need them is "browbeating."

 

The interesting thing: This woman provided the room # she had booked. She insisted she would give up the room if a person with disabilities needed it.

So DH called HAL and identified himself as a person with disabilities and asked if that room were available on that particular sailing. He was told it was booked.

He asked if it were booked by a person with disabilities.

And of course the HAL rep said, "We only let people with disabilities book the HC rooms."

 

So it made crystal clear the observations Candy and others on the board here have had: HC rooms booked by AB pax are not flagged. Once they are booked, that's it. They are unavailable.

 

Another interesting thing: We booked on HAL the second week of Nov. but we really wanted to take a cruise the previous week. We were told all the HC cabins the first week of Nov. were booked.

 

I happened to go on the roll call for the first week of Nov. and lo and behold, a member of the roll call was telling how he and his friend had booked an HC cabin. Yes, both are AB pax. They were able to book this room many months ahead of the trip.

 

Another example of how people who need HC rooms are shut out when AB pax are allowed to book HC rooms.

[kitty9]

I had a discussion with someone on these boards who purposely booked an HC cabin because "it was the only cabin left on the Empress Deck that was mid ship and we always want a mid ship cabin". This type of behavior angers me to no end. Even though I'm disabled and would qualify for an HC cabin, I don't book them because I'm still able to get into the shower/bathtub and I don't need the extra room that someone in a wheelchair would need. Of course you get the same answers from everyone who defends such a practice---I didn't know it was an HC cabin, the cruise line let me do it, I'll give it back if they REALLY need it. So many responses said they love the extra space. How rude !!!

 

What we have to do, as disabled persons, is write, write and write again to the cruise lines demanding they do a better job in booking those cabins and giving them to those who are disabled. Yes, if it's last minute and those cabins aren't booked, then sell them to AB passengers, but don't allow AB passengers to book those cabins at their whim.

[Queenie2]

Here's an interesting item I blogged about a few days ago. It rather relates to this discussion.

 

http://emerginghorizons.com/blog/2005/07/is-this-really-good-idea.html

 

I'm still not a fan behind having to "prove" or "document" your disability in order to book an accessible cabin, but perhaps this will be the wave of the future -- it was part of rather a major ADA settlement (and although it applies to campsites, I think you could extrapolate a bit).

 

Interestingly enough, I do get mail from a fair amount of dis people who say they would be offended if documentation (outside of self declaration) was required in order to book an accessible cabin or room. And I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that that would be illegal, now that cruise ships are covered under the ADA.

 

I don't know what the answer is -- public awareness, certainly. However I also think the cruise lines need to do a *better* job in screening pax who request an accessible cabin. But there is a fine line between asking and grilling, and at times I'm not exactly sure where that line is. Like my favorite character on Boston Legal (Alan Shore), I'm never quite sure where that line is until I step over it:)

 

Candy

[Oceanwench]

Candy,

 

DH is a lawyer and disabled and a columnist who writes about disability issues.

He said it would be illegal for a cruise line to inquire as to the nature of the disability.

However, the cruise line could ask for a doctor's note or certificate -- beyond the self-declaration -- from the person booking the HC cabin.

 

Again, no decisions have been made as to how the ADA will apply to cruise ships, so it's a wait-and-see game at this point.

[Oceanwench]

Candy,

 

Just read that link to your blog.

Interesting.

 

Can't a person with disabilities obtain a placard even if he/she does not drive?

As I understand it, the placard goes with the person, not the vehicle.

When I lived in Ohio and DH was in Fla., before we were married, he had 2 placards. One was for my car in Ohio, when he was with me, and one was for his car in Fla.

[i checked it out with a police chief in Ohio, and he assured me it was legal for us to use the placard with my car when my DH was with me.]

 

When we traveled to another state and rented cars, we took one of the placards with us [plus the documentation that went with it] and used them on the rental cars.

 

BTW, DH has absolutely no problem with providing a cruise line with documentation from his doctor to prove he does need an HC cabin.

[Queenie2]

yes, OW you can get a placard even if you don't drive, but I know many disabled people who just don't have one or even want one. The reason is that they rely on dial a ride and hire others to do errands, etc. so they just don't feel they need one. Or they live in the big city where a lot of people just don't own cars.

 

In CA, pretty much if you go to your doc and ask for one, you can get one. It's pretty easy. Do you need to have a disabiltity? Depends on the doc.

 

That's why it's so hard to find an accessible spot out here -- but I guess that's another subject:)

 

Candy

[Queenie2]

OW:

 

Sorry I can't get the darn quote thingy to work <sigh>.

 

RE: your post about asking the nature of the disability in regards to title III. Yes, I have heard what your husband said from several other attorneys who practice civil rights law. But even though the specifics of the ADA have not been actually determined (ie: the architectural features required on newly built ships have not been determined) I believe that just by the Supremes ruling that title III applies to cruise ships makes it illegal to ask too much about the disability (beyond what accommodations you need). That's what I get from the civil rights lawyers out here anyway. Part of the lawsuit had to do with documentation and some paperwork (requiring a disabled person to sail with an AB).

 

I don't have a problem with the cruise lines asking if you use a wheelchair or scooter (I think that is reasonable) but I don't think you should have to reveal your dx (if you don't want to -- some people are more sensitive than others about that). In other words, does it really matter if you are MS, SCI or post-polio to the cruise line? The important thing is that you use a wc or scooter.

 

I did read a comment on the PVAAC Comments page -- the name was Jill Syilblasky (I may have really mucked up the spelling on that one, but it's very close) and she did have a big problem with the cruise lines asking for documentation (she is disabled). It's interesting reading on the "other side" of the whole documentation debate.

 

And no, I still don't have a solution!

 

Candy

[Oceanwench]

DH has no problem showing a letter from a doctor stating that he needs an accessible room.

Just as he had no problem getting the necessary documentation to obtain parking placards.

Those are just necessary steps. He understands that.

 

Yes, there are people who "cheat" the system, and no matter how many safeguards there are, there will still be those who get away with it.

But you can't condemn the whole system just because there are some who cheat.

 

As far as the people who choose not to get placards, that's their decision and they have to live with the consequences.

If DH really wanted to go camping, he'd apply for a placard ... seems simple enough. The placard is just a prerequisite.

 

In a perfect world none of this would be necessary -- but this is not a perfect world, and there are people who are very self-centered and don't think about others.

Just park near a HC spot in front of a Blockbuster and watch all the AB folks who use the HC spot "just to run in and drop off a DVD."

 

If cruise lines don't require some documentation from pax booking an HC cabin, then people with disabilities who require HC cabins and going to find themselves shut out of cruises more often.

We had problems in Feb. trying to book cruises in Nov./Dec.!!!

What is the solutiuon?

Make ALL the cabins accessible? Of course then the lower priced, inside cabins would have to be expanded to accommodate scooters/wheelchairs, and then there would be less cabins and the prices would go up ...

[kitty9]

My mom is disabled and cannot drive because of it, and she has a disabled parking placard. My sister drives her places and needs to park close for mom to get into public places easily.

[Queenie2]

I do understand what you are saying OW -- we can't throw the baby out with the bathwater, and no mater what regs we devise *somebody* will always find a way to get around them. On that we do agree.

 

But here's my point, (and it reveals more of my personal life than I'm comfortable with in this forum). I'm not a fan of western medicine, and in fact I have not see what you would term a "doctor" in over 30 years. I'm not alone. I know plenty of PWD folks who look to holistic medicine or "alternative therapy". These people visit their primary care MD once every 5 years to get a wc. They do not believe in a lot of things that western docs prescribe. Most have insurance in case of an accident or catastrophic event.

 

The point is, I don't think it's fair to make somebody go to the doc (and pay for it) just to go on a cruise. Sure, if you happen to be there anyway it's no problem, but that's not the way it works with some folks. If the cruise line wants to pay for the doc appointment, then I think that is OK. But I don't think they should require it. Some folks believe in western medicine and some folks don't; that doesn't make them any less disabled.

 

Candy

[Oceanwench]

Everyone has a choice in what kind of care they receive.

I understand that and fully support it. You do what is best for you.

DH has tried "alternative" therapy ... none of it worked. He has also gone through a gamut of doctors and meds for his MS. Pretty much nothing has worked there, either.

 

But he does have MDs for other aspects of his health, and a neurologist for the MS.

 

If the PWD you know go to a doctor once every five years to get a wheelchair, then why the problem going to one to get a note for a cruise?

Or a placard for a parking space?

 

I guess if cruise lines decide to ask for documentation from people who want to book HC cabins, it's going to be up to each individual line to determine what it will accept.

Will the docs have to come from someone with an MD after his/her name?

Or will the cruise line accept a letter from a holistic practitioner?

[mom23guys]

I am AB. I had booked a room on a Carnival cruise. It looked great the Carnival PVP even suggested it. My TA called and booked it for us. There was never any mention of it being a HC room. Well, by reading another thread I discovered this was definitely a HC room. Called travel agent this morning and just switched the booking to a regular extended balcony room.

 

My TA said they never mentioned this to her when she booked the room, there is no notation on the deck plans. If I hadn't read these board I never would have known. As you can see I really would never take a room that someone with a HC might need. I just think people should be told when they originally book the room.

[dlbutler5]

Mom23guys: I sure do wish that there were more people like you around. As someone who needs this kind of room I would like to say thank you for your consideration!:)

[montgomeryfamily]

I concur. Thank you Mom23guys, for changing and also for alerting Carnival that this room is not shown as a HC room on the reservation database. Your consideration is greatly appreciated.

[mom23guys]

No thanks necessary. It just seems like the right thing to do. What goes around comes around.

[Umbarger]

Can anyone help me get the message thru to the AB people on this thread.

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=220220

 

Oceanwench, Candy ???

[Queenie2]

Well, i gave it a shot, but...!!!???

 

To be honest *most* folks are well-meaning and they would never do something intentionally to harm a diabled person. OK, there are a few jerks in the world who only think about themselves, but thankfully they are few and far between. The only answer (IMHO) is education. It *is* a very slow process.

 

 

OK, now it's time for garden time -- lots to do out there. I've been on the road so much and things are starting to get "overgrown" <sigh>.

 

Candy

[montgomeryfamily]

I had also posted several times on that thread. At least we have continued to educate and to strike against that myth about them automatically being bumped it a disabled person calls and needs a room.

 

Seeing this type of post several times where an able bodied person discusses having booking on a future cruise in an accessible stateroom is what led me to start the thread below regarding needing an accessible stateroom but being told that all were booked. The link is here:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=220902

 

I started that thread as a resource, with the thought we could start a resource where staterooms that are booked by able bodied passengers are noted. If in reading the board you come across such a thread, come back and post it there on that thread so that if someone is wanting a stateroom on the ship/sailing, they could look at that thread and know the passenger currently booked in it is ablebodied. I think this would help when you are insisting that the TA/cruise line check to see if the room is really booked by someone who says they are disabled.

 

Many of the cruise lines aren't requiring documentation or even a self-declaration that the person is disabled. And many TAs aren't either.

 

If asked, many of these people who are booked in these staterooms would say they aren't disabled, but they aren't even asked. (Although I know there are some who would lie, but I think those are in the minority, if the posts on these boards can be believed.)

[DEL67]

Mom23guys

 

I also appreciate your making the change. Actually, Carnival has not marked the handicap cabins on their deck plans for several years. I am not sure why not - except perhaps to keep AB from requesting them. If so, they should be more careful about assigning them to those that do not need them.