Internationally Adopted refused boarding?

[LargeCornGyro]

I have several friends who are Carnival Reps at ports and Carnival does not make the final decision....US Customs does.

 

You can always go up the food chain.

 

I have heard of way to many stories that Carnival has moved heaven and earth to try to assist people for everything from leaving their documents in checked luggage and giving them to the porter to leaving their documents at home....

 

because the bottom line is that Carnival does not make money when they sell a cabin. Carnival makes money when they get those bodies on a ship.

 

Not to mention the salary that Carnival probably covered of the wait staff who would have been paid by these people.

 

Did you not read that US customs said it was fine, and it was CCL pulled the gate?

[LHP]

Huh? Carnival has stated it was someone in their org that called it.

 

I do have to ask "who" told you that Carnival said someone in their organization called it.

 

Did this person show the exact correspondence or are people just taking them at their word?

 

Sometimes what people "say" and what actually happened, do not end up being the same thing.

Edited November 2, 2013 by LHP

[LargeCornGyro]

I mean let's use some common sense....

 

Yes, let's use some common sense. Carnival has assumed responsibility.

[42CruiseCrazy]

Because sometimes...when we use common sense....things happen that shouldn't be allowed to happen.

 

The person who is supposed to follow the law and lets things "slip by"....is the one who gets the blame if "something goes wrong".

 

Suppose the child (or any person) didn't have the proper documentation....and wasn't allowed re-entry to the US after the cruise? (Again...what the child had and what Carnival said is only hearsay.)

 

I have several relatives who are Israeli citizens...but born in Iraq (which is written on the Israeli passport). My 50 year old SIL was on a tour of Alaska...and the group flew to Canada to get a flight back to Israel. She was planning to fly to NYC to visit us instead. She had just been in the US (Alaska) but she got detained in Canada...although she had the proper documentation....and held in "a cell like room" for 4 hours. For our purposes she was "missing"...and no one would give us any info. Finally a NYPD officer went thru the red tape...and told us that she was detained.

 

The point is....international travel can be confusing. Be pro-active...and don't assume that the clerks will use "logic and common sense" because they aren't allowed to.

 

Often, quite often, when we don't use common sense....things happen that shouldn't be allowed to happen. There was little if any chance the child would be denied re-entry into the US since they had the passport with the entry visa. You are right that Customs agents are not allowed to use common sense & logic. Fortunately they sometimes do but when they don't (which is far too often) bad things happen to good people like your relative and this good family.

 

 

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[42CruiseCrazy]

You can't be wrong if you do the right thing. If you do what you know is the wrong thing because you think the law tells you to do it. It is still wrong even if your interpretation of the law is correct.

 

 

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[skoi13]

Uow can the US issue a birth certificate for someone born outside the US? I can't even get a reissue unless I go back to my town of birth.

 

We have two bio kids, two adopted from China. They have official birth certificates from the Commonwealth of PA. Because we're on our way home from our first Carnival cruise-- we have copies in our special envelope of important stuff-- so I looked at them. They are official embossed documents and they have listed as place of birth "China". The reason you get them, we were advised, was because getting a bc from China would be impossible, and if we registered the birth with proper paperwork with Orphan's Court, they'd issue official papers. So now if they need a b.c. for something, they can get the PA paper, rather than try to get one from the "Old Country". So having this paperwork doesn't prove US citizenship. To the contrary-- it says they were born ELSEWHERE.

 

We never had an issue traveling with the littlest ones. We got them their passports as soon as they arrived in the US (their citizenship was automatic upon reaching the US since husband and I both traveled to China to adopt). Got their passports immediately and would never have thought to travel outside the US without one. I even took them on a cruise while dh was in Afghanistan with no issue-- no one asked me for paperwork from missing spouse, though I had it.

 

We had read on a disney board about issues someone had with the Russian adopted son (and he was very Russian-Nordic- so no racial issue there) with just the US bc not being allowed to board. Since then, we've always had the little ones' passports, and copies of their Chinese papers, the adoption decree (all in Chinese so good luck reading that), and the CoC. No one ever asked to see them. The US Passport is GOLDEN. Just show that to the cruise line employee, DHS/Customs people and no problem.

 

ETA Get a passport. Just get one. It will save you a world of hurt. And the person who had this issue-- they're educated professionals-- really-- they didn't think to get a passport for their kids? I taught ESL and the first thing most of my students did (the legal ones) upon getting citizenship was to apply for their US passports so they could travel freely, same with my neighbors who are from Bangladesh, Haiti, etc. That US passport is GOLDEN.

Edited November 3, 2013 by skoi13
New info

[Gailerina]

I work for CBP. Of course, I don't know the particulars, but from what I've read here, it's very likely that the parents did not have all the proper documents to prove the child was a U.S. citizen. There are several reasons I think that:

 

1. A U.S. birth certificate only proves U.S. citizenship if the place of birth was United States soil. If it was outside the U.S., it states that it is not proof of citizenship. The citizen would need a certificate of citizenship in addition to the birth certificate.

 

2. A citizen should not have an LPR card (green card). Citizens are supposed to surrender their LPR card upon receiving citizenship. If they still had the LPR card, either the child was not yet a citizen or they didn't pay attention to the fact that they are supposed to surrender it (which doesn't bode well for them knowing which documents they need to have to prove citizenship). In addition, if the child WAS an LPR, they are supposed to have the actual LPR card with them at all times.

 

3. The parents were traveling with the Ethiopian passport with a U.S. entry visa and a digital copy of the LPR card. Again, that implies that the child was traveling as an Ethiopian citizen, and would therefore be required to have a Bahamian entry visa in his/her passport. If the child did not have a Bahamian entry visa, he/she would not be allowed to board the ship. If the child was a U.S. citizen, they should not have even presented the passport to Carnival.

 

The child is likely a U.S. citizen, but without all of the paperwork to prove it, all the parents were able to prove was Ethiopian citizenship, which meant the child was subject to Bahamian entry requirements that he/she didn't meet. Carnival probably couldn't have allowed them to fast-track the documents to them because they'd need them for the Bahamas, not for return to the United States.

 

Now, again, I don't know the specifics. That is my opinion from what was posted here. But it seems to me that Carnival is just trying to pacify them to make them stop complaining so publicly (and I worked retail often enough that I saw that happen many times, even when the store was not at fault).

 

Just wanted to quote this as it seems people are missing important information.

 

 

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[skridge]

Because it's not much of an expense and it isn't very much trouble....and it will simplify life. That's why!

 

I have been on a closed loop cruise without a passport, just a birth certificate. I had no problem. I don't understand why people expect someone to have something that they do not need.

[cherylandtk]

They did not need the green card. They had a birth certificate.

They had a birth certificate .

This is not true. I have adopted two foreign children in the state of North Carolina. I went through the same re-adoption process this family went through. We received an embossed raised seal birth certificate for both children.

As a parent of two foreign born children, if I brought my children on a closed loop cruise and had there birth certificates like this family I would expect to be let on the freaking ship. Why would you go through the expense and trouble of getting a passport when you don't need too.

I have been on a closed loop cruise without a passport, just a birth certificate. I had no problem. I don't understand why people expect someone to have something that they do not need.

 

Please go pull out those birth certificates for your children and read the line that says place of birth. Then come back here and tell us all what it says.

 

If it says anywhere outside of the US you do not have proof of citizenship for your children. YOU, however, were likely born in the US and your birth certificate reflects that. You can expect all you want, but your children need a different document for proof of citizenship. Their NC birth certificates do not prove citizenship if it shows they were born in another country.

[CI66774]

Please go pull out those birth certificates for your children and read the line that says place of birth. Then come back here and tell us all what it says.

 

If it says anywhere outside of the US you do not have proof of citizenship for your children. YOU, however, were likely born in the US and your birth certificate reflects that. You can expect all you want, but your children need a different document for proof of citizenship. Their NC birth certificates do not prove citizenship if it shows they were born in another country.

 

Actually - this varies by state. I've seen Certificates of Foreign Birth and nowhere on the doc does it reflect that it's not proof of citizenship. In fact, in my state (and many others), you have to provide the child's Certificate of Citizenship (this is proof of citizenship) in order to obtain the Certificate of Foreign Birth. The bottom line, though, it's so much easier just to obtain a passport for your adopted child. This is proof of citizenship and no one (unless they're truly an idiot) will be confused when you present this as evidence of citizenship.

[skridge]

Please go pull out those birth certificates for your children and read the line that says place of birth. Then come back here and tell us all what it says.

 

If it says anywhere outside of the US you do not have proof of citizenship for your children. YOU, however, were likely born in the US and your birth certificate reflects that. You can expect all you want, but your children need a different document for proof of citizenship. Their NC birth certificates do not prove citizenship if it shows they were born in another country.

 

I have looked. My children were readopted in the state of North Carolina. I have mentioned this several times. Just like the family we are talking about, whose child was readopted in the state of north carolina. If the child is not readopted in the state then you would be right.

[CruisinCarps]

Well, according to their updated blog post- they have received a full refund from Carnival. And...Carnival has retracted their statement that the 'child could have sailed'.... Would like to know why, now, Carnival is saying that. And, yes, yes, passports make it easier, etc...we get that!! At this point, I guess that's all we could tell anyone who might have the same issue happen with them. It still doesn't answer why the re-adopted birth certificate issued from the state of N.C. wasn't enough (now, according to Carnival's most recent statement to the family per the family's blog).

[cherylandtk]

I have looked. My children were readopted in the state of North Carolina. I have mentioned this several times. Just like the family we are talking about, whose child was readopted in the state of north carolina. If the child is not readopted in the state then you would be right.

But you did not answer the question; on your re-adopted in NC children's Birth Certificates, what does it say for place of birth?

 

The reason I keep asking you this is because of the following statement by NC DHHS:

B. PROCEDURES FOR RE-ADOPTION OF CHILDREN ADOPTED IN A FOREIGN COUNTRY

North Carolina residents are encouraged to also adopt through a North Carolina court upon return to this state. The law does not distinguish between a domestic adoption and an inter-country adoption, so the basic procedure for legalizing an adoption must be followed. A certified copy or the original document of the foreign adoption decree will serve in lieu of the otherwise required consents to the adoption. Once a Decree of Adoption is issued, the adoptive parents will receive a Certificate of Identification from the North Carolina Vital Records Office. The child's birth record will be recorded in North Carolina, though indicating the country of birth as it actually was. This will eliminate the necessity for the parents to attempt to obtain a new birth record for the child from the country of origin - often an impossible task.

 

If this is what you have, your children, although citizens, do not have proof of their citizenship using just their birth certificate.

Edited November 7, 2013 by cherylandtk

[Gailerina]

Well, according to their updated blog post- they have received a full refund from Carnival. And...Carnival has retracted their statement that the 'child could have sailed'.... Would like to know why, now, Carnival is saying that. And, yes, yes, passports make it easier, etc...we get that!! At this point, I guess that's all we could tell anyone who might have the same issue happen with them. It still doesn't answer why the re-adopted birth certificate issued from the state of N.C. wasn't enough (now, according to Carnival's most recent statement to the family per the family's blog).

 

I wish carnival would issue a public statement.

 

 

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[cherylandtk]

Carnival will not issue a public statement on a private matter. They likely retracted the statement about the child 'would have been able to travel' because a foreign born child cannot use a birth certificate, showing that foreign birth location, as proof of US citizenship. Period. Regardless of where the BC was issued, these children do not derive their citizenship from their place of birth. They needed additional documentation in order to prove their citizenship and were not eligible for the WHTI cruise exception. They did not have one of the three accepted documents for that exception.

 

The easiest course of action for these children and their parents is to obtain US passports.

Edited November 7, 2013 by cherylandtk