Star still in San Francisco

[caribill]

Longshoremen are some of the highest paid blue collar jobs available. The average Longshoreman wage and benefits package is nearly $220,000 per active worker. Foremen can make upwards of $300,000 a year in wages alone.

 

But don't forget to tip them when you give them your luggage.

[jcw0313]

We were on the Caribe deck (10) on the port side and could see the Golden Gate from our balcony while docked. We cast off about 11PM and our view of the city and her beautiful lights was spectacular as we sailed by. We went under the GG about 11:45 and I did get some pictures....but not the daylight pictures I had hoped for. Check one off the bucket list!!

 

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[gcvt]

Interesting that the P&O Arcadia was only delayed by about ONE hour tonight.

 

Longshoremen wanting to get home early this evening to prepare for the Superbowl tomorrow? Hmm.

[jcw0313]

We never gave them the pleasure of handling our individual bags! Took the Princess shuttle to the ship and not sure how our bags got from bus to the ship. On return, handled our own bags out of spite. Made me feel good beating the overpaid primadonnas out of my tip!!

 

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[AZbeachboy]

Hi there. With such a late departure wer all the bars open before you sailed away. I am thinking of crooners. I know in NYC in October princess were only allowed to open a couple of bars before departure. One on deck and the other on deck 5.

 

Thanks

 

Jackie

 

Some of the bars are generally opened when you enter the ship. I have not seen crooners open. The difference is while still in port you pay sales taxes on your drinks.

[Bernbun29]

Does this apply to us at all, or just containers? http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.presstelegram.com%2Fbusiness%2F20150126%2Fwest-coast-longshore-workers-employers-reach-agreement-on-chassis-issue&ei=z03OVPKRKpLjggS9yIOwDQ&usg=AFQjCNHe3aPWXTvx68mMXPZrFWKxXEKuoQ&sig2=QsOfKSiGl989sY5EnXBtJw&bvm=bv.85076809,d.eXY

[elliair]

Some of the bars are generally opened when you enter the ship. I have not seen crooners open. The difference is while still in port you pay sales taxes on your drinks.

 

This is why we never order drinks at the bars until we are in open waters. After being delayed why should I buy a drink and pay taxes to SF?

[swedish weave]

Does this apply to us at all, or just containers? http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.presstelegram.com%2Fbusiness%2F20150126%2Fwest-coast-longshore-workers-employers-reach-agreement-on-chassis-issue&ei=z03OVPKRKpLjggS9yIOwDQ&usg=AFQjCNHe3aPWXTvx68mMXPZrFWKxXEKuoQ&sig2=QsOfKSiGl989sY5EnXBtJw&bvm=bv.85076809,d.eXY

 

This agreement is only applicable to container traffic, but the unions are still withholding workers in other areas in order to keep the congestion from clearing up. I think the settlement of this issue was prompted by the formation of "gray" chassis pools which would eliminate much of the repositioning of equipment.

 

Some of the bigger shippers are re-routing their traffic which could prompt a quicker settlement of other issues. Here is a link to some of the things that are happening.

 

http://www.americanshipper.com/Main/News.aspx?taxonomy=Labor

[Loonbeam]

I have significant issues with their numbers. Unless their payscale too is in a state all its own, that number seems very excessive. I know an NYC port worker (same exact jobs, in a city with similar cost of living) and while they do quite well, they do not come close to a quarter mil, even with over 12 years on the job.

 

He said he would have to work 60 hours every single week to make that kind of money.

 

January 26, 2015

Oregon Small Business Association, Press Release

 

Delays at West Coast ports, including Northwest ports, have reached a critical point and threaten regional economies, according to recent news reports. The Pacific Maritime Association (PMA), which represents 29 West Coast port employers, has been locked in contract negotiations with the International Longshore & Warehouse Union (ILWU) since July of last year. That’s when the six-year contract between PMA and ILWU expired.

 

Since then, both sides have blamed the other for major port delays that have left ships stalled at docks in Los Angeles, San Francisco, Portland and Seattle, among others. The ILWU says port operators aren’t providing sufficient resources or that their equipment isn’t safe, which is causing delays. Port operators counter, and recent judicial rulings seem to affirm, that the ILWU is engaging in deliberate delay tactics to gain leverage during ongoing contract negotiations.

 

Regardless of who’s to blame, delays at West Coast ports are beginning to have an economic impact. In early January, Weyerhauser announced it will lay off workers at one of its Longview, Wash., facilities as a direct result of longshore union slowdowns at ports in Tacoma and Seattle. The Journal of Commerce recently highlighted a Federal Reserve national economic report indicating significant economic impact caused by disruption at West Coast ports.

 

Nearly two-hundred companies and associations dependent on West Coast ports signed a letter to President Obama in late December requesting the White House assign a third-party, federal mediator to guide contract talks toward resolution. According the letter, “Importers, exporters and others are feeling the impact from the congestion and slowdowns at the ports…Retailers have had delays in getting holiday goods to store shelves. Manufactures have had to slow and even stop production lines due to unavailable components delayed at the ports, creating high levels of uncertainty for workers and employers who are aiming to deliver products to domestic and global markets.”

 

A federal mediator was appointed and has been actively working to resolve outstanding contract issues. Progress appears to have stalled, leaving continued uncertainty for many retailers and manufactures.

 

Longshoremen are some of the highest paid blue collar jobs available. The average Longshoreman wage and benefits package is nearly $220,000 per active worker. Foremen can make upwards of $300,000 a year in wages alone.

[swedish weave]

I have significant issues with their numbers. Unless their payscale too is in a state all its own, that number seems very excessive. I know an NYC port worker (same exact jobs, in a city with similar cost of living) and while they do quite well, they do not come close to a quarter mil, even with over 12 years on the job.

 

He said he would have to work 60 hours every single week to make that kind of money.

 

If your friend is quoting salary only, the numbers you furnished support the numbers in the aforementioned article.

 

The benefit package attached to the salary will add at least a third more cost so the statement that he must work 60 hours per week ( a third more hours) to achieve those figures supports the reporters figures.

 

I have seen the figure of $35,000 per year per member for medical benefits, but haven't been able to find the cost of retirement plans and other items in the benefit package that is fully paid by the employer.

Edited February 1, 2015 by swedish weave

[Loonbeam]

$35K year would be excessive for medical benefits. $3K per month employer contribution would be a heck of a Cadillac plan even at family level. We have a very good one and I think the contrib for family is max $1200 per month, and we don't come close to the scale they do.

 

He wouldn't give me exact figures, but said a fair estimate for someone with 6 years in (the average) in NYC is about $40 per hour or $80K. You can usually pick up another $25 to $50k in overtime (SF might have more because of volume I suppose). Even if you do double in overtime and have great benefits, you'd be hard pressed to get to $220K as an average, forget $300K until you have 20-25 years in (a foreman COULD do it with overtime). There is one set of exceptions to that and those are the special skills guys like specific crane and equipment operators, who can earn a lot more but there are only a few of them at each port.

 

 

Here's the big difference tho. The 6 year+ guys are not usually the ones assigned to cruise ship porterage and the like. The new guys get those jobs as they involve a lot more individual labor. The senior guys spend a lot more time working with the easier container loads, pallet loads security assists, etc. Except for the foremen, the CS guys either volunteer for those shifts (in the hopes of tip money - hence some more aggressive ones) or are juniors or on someone's crap list (especially in NYC where a lot of the cruise ships depart on weekends). This I can quote him on "I have 12 years in and I have worked one cruise ship loading as a truck operator. That's it. Why work outside in the rain and cold, etc when I can drive a yard container mover that has heat and AC."

 

Retirement funds btw are an interesting beast because in most cases they are underfunded, meaning the actual as opposed to proper cost is much left.

 

 

 

If your friend is quoting salary only, the numbers you furnished support the numbers in the aforementioned article.

 

The benefit package attached to the salary will add at least a third more cost so the statement that he must work 60 hours per week ( a third more hours) to achieve those figures supports the reporters figures.

 

I have seen the figure of $35,000 per year per member for medical benefits, but haven't been able to find the cost of retirement plans and other items in the benefit package that is fully paid by the employer.

[pablo222]

This is why we never order drinks at the bars until we are in open waters. After being delayed why should I buy a drink and pay taxes to SF?

 

The sales tax on a drink seems like a pittance compared to the

money you gave to the cruise line to pay port charges.

[nukesubsailor]

I would imagine that the west coast longshoreman's union would be aware that they will loose a lot of work once the new bigger Panama canal locks are in service. A lot of large container ships will use those new locks to deliver to ports in the Gulf of Mexico and the east coast rather than on the west coast. That might be why the union is going to such unethical practices now so they can make as much money as possible before the layoffs begin.

Another thing to remember is that unions are big contributors to liberal politicians. That may be an influencing factor on the political types who negotiate the contracts with the unions.

All of the above is just my speculation and opinion based upon what I have experienced in my many decades of life.

[swedish weave]

$35K year would be excessive for medical benefits. $3K per month employer contribution would be a heck of a Cadillac plan even at family level. We have a very good one and I think the contrib for family is max $1200 per month, and we don't come close to the scale they do.

 

He wouldn't give me exact figures, but said a fair estimate for someone with 6 years in (the average) in NYC is about $40 per hour or $80K. You can usually pick up another $25 to $50k in overtime (SF might have more because of volume I suppose). Even if you do double in overtime and have great benefits, you'd be hard pressed to get to $220K as an average, forget $300K until you have 20-25 years in (a foreman COULD do it with overtime). There is one set of exceptions to that and those are the special skills guys like specific crane and equipment operators, who can earn a lot more but there are only a few of them at each port.

 

 

Here's the big difference tho. The 6 year+ guys are not usually the ones assigned to cruise ship porterage and the like. The new guys get those jobs as they involve a lot more individual labor. The senior guys spend a lot more time working with the easier container loads, pallet loads security assists, etc. Except for the foremen, the CS guys either volunteer for those shifts (in the hopes of tip money - hence some more aggressive ones) or are juniors or on someone's crap list (especially in NYC where a lot of the cruise ships depart on weekends). This I can quote him on "I have 12 years in and I have worked one cruise ship loading as a truck operator. That's it. Why work outside in the rain and cold, etc when I can drive a yard container mover that has heat and AC."

 

Retirement funds btw are an interesting beast because in most cases they are underfunded, meaning the actual as opposed to proper cost is much left.

 

I thought the medical plan figures sounded high also, but they came from AmericanShipper which is running a series of updates on the port problems. The publication seems to have a pretty good handle on the activities that are taking place.

 

One factor that stood out to me was the statement that the union is withholding members so they can continue to add to the congestion at the ports. This may only affect the freight business, but I fail to understand why they feel it is necessary to delay the cruise ships also.

 

http://www.americanshipper.com

[swedish weave]

I would imagine that the west coast longshoreman's union would be aware that they will loose a lot of work once the new bigger Panama canal locks are in service. A lot of large container ships will use those new locks to deliver to ports in the Gulf of Mexico and the east coast rather than on the west coast. That might be why the union is going to such unethical practices now so they can make as much money as possible before the layoffs begin.

Another thing to remember is that unions are big contributors to liberal politicians. That may be an influencing factor on the political types who negotiate the contracts with the unions.

All of the above is just my speculation and opinion based upon what I have experienced in my many decades of life.

 

Another thing the unions should be considering is the ports in Mexico that are already absorbing some of the freight business that was coming to Los Angeles and Long Beach. The KCS railroad which owns part of NDEM has been working for a few years to improve the structure to run freight through from the Mexican ports to the USA. I know Mike Haverty and he is no dummy when it comes to rail business.

 

When shippers realize they can get good service at good rates via that route, they may opt to bypass US ports. Some are already doing that and may continue even after this dispute is settled.

[jcw0313]

Whatever numbers you use. ...they are large! ! These guys would all be flipping burgers at McDonald's for minimum wage if they were not in the union. I can't believe they are screwing with the goose that laid the Golden Egg !! Very short term thinking on the part of the workers.

 

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[rdsqrl]

Another thread which has devolved into debating the finer points of other people's compensation. I'd happily send each of you a couple bucks you can use for porter tips on your next cruise if you'd all just quit your whining about "overpaid" longshoremen and evil unions.

[cruisindude415]

American shipper is just quoting numbers released by the pacific maritime association. These numbers, while not a lie, are misleading. For instance the benefits number of 35k, comes from all moneys paid by the fund and divided by the number of active full time longshore workers. So every retiree, surviving spouse, those on disability etc, then divided only by those currently working full time. The avg. Salary quotes are arrived at by a similiar method, all hours worked that year, then divided only by those that worked a certain cut off of hours in the year. 1300 ~1600 something along those lines.

 

Lastly the union is not in control of how many workers are ordered. The employers decide how many they want, and for months now they have ordered less than they need.

however cruise ships and american flag vessels are never part of these problems as the federal government has steps that would instantly damage whichever side was responible for slowing down the service of such vessels. That being said, customer service people like to use current news stories like whats going on in the ports as an excuse for anything you might call to complain about

[jcw0313]

Just came in on the Star Princess and we know what travesty we saw on the dock. The tactics the union workers are using are not gaining them any support from those that are observing from the dock.

 

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[cruisindude415]

Just came in on the Star Princess and we know what travesty we saw on the dock. The tactics the union workers are using are not gaining them any support from those that are observing from the dock.

 

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Im sorry, I reread the entire thread and cant find any specifics of what you actually saw. Were they refusing to work? Rude? What was it that they did?

 

to answer a previous question longshore men remove the bags from the ship and load them onto whatever you pick them up from. The pay for a worker who picks up a porter job is completely different from the numbers listed, and personalities are always a wide range no matter what business you interact with. What you want to tip someone is your business and if the person isnt happy with it, then too bad.

[swedish weave]

American shipper is just quoting numbers released by the pacific maritime association. These numbers, while not a lie, are misleading. For instance the benefits number of 35k, comes from all moneys paid by the fund and divided by the number of active full time longshore workers. So every retiree, surviving spouse, those on disability etc, then divided only by those currently working full time. The avg. Salary quotes are arrived at by a similiar method, all hours worked that year, then divided only by those that worked a certain cut off of hours in the year. 1300 ~1600 something along those lines.

 

Lastly the union is not in control of how many workers are ordered. The employers decide how many they want, and for months now they have ordered less than they need.

however cruise ships and american flag vessels are never part of these problems as the federal government has steps that would instantly damage whichever side was responible for slowing down the service of such vessels. That being said, customer service people like to use current news stories like whats going on in the ports as an excuse for anything you might call to complain about

 

If your information is correct, why do the people have to go to the union hall to be assigned ?

 

You can put a spin on any data, but the figures don't lie.

 

The fact that they are messing with cruisers and their luggage is the subject here, and it is obvious that they are stepping over the line of common decency. Their public image is getting worse because of this.

 

The glaring increase in the amount of luggage that is being left in the weather or dropped into the water is inexcusable.

Edited February 2, 2015 by swedish weave

[swedish weave]

Another thread which has devolved into debating the finer points of other people's compensation. I'd happily send each of you a couple bucks you can use for porter tips on your next cruise if you'd all just quit your whining about "overpaid" longshoremen and evil unions.

 

I believe your support would diminish greatly if your luggage was dropped into the water or left out in the rain purposely.

[elliair]

Whatever numbers you use. ...they are large! ! These guys would all be flipping burgers at McDonald's for minimum wage if they were not in the union. I can't believe they are screwing with the goose that laid the Golden Egg !! Very short term thinking on the part of the workers.

 

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That's always been the case ever since the unions came into being. They hold America hostage with their striking. However, the money they lost in wages and benefits will never be recaptured by them. The raise they do receive is eaten up by taxes and higher prices for the product. No one really wins.

 

As for what went on on the dock 1/13, we had an aft cabin and witnessed workers cutting locks off of the semis parked below us. We saw pallets of products sitting on the dock waiting to be loaded onto the ship. We saw workers milling around, and the security guy sitting at the desk below had his head on the table like he was asleep. The guy with the dog sitting on his cart came and went from time-to-time. It was definitely a work slow down. All 6 of those semis were loaded with product. The one truck that we saw the lock being cut was loaded with Cocoa-Cola and other beverages. There were also pallets of beer sitting on the dock by the fence along with turnips, rice, and cereal.

 

Our luggage got on okay and was delivered to our room. We tipped the porter $2/per bag and we had 3 bags. Another passenger we know of had a case of wine which was opened up and 2 bottles missing. They were down at customer service several times looking for the 2 bottles which they paid a corkage fee for. So, it looks like someone helped themselves to their wine.

[shredie]

Another thread which has devolved into debating the finer points of other people's compensation. I'd happily send each of you a couple bucks you can use for porter tips on your next cruise if you'd all just quit your whining about "overpaid" longshoremen and evil unions.

 

 

This.

[elliair]

This.

 

and this:

 

I believe your support would diminish greatly if your luggage was dropped into the water or left out in the rain purposely.