Muster drill difficulties

[knittinggirl]

Just a few facts about the Concordia that I'd like to make. First, 23 of 26 lifeboats were successfully launched. Second, as I've stated before, the cause of the confusion there was lack of communication from the bridge to the crew at the boat stations regarding whether to muster or not, and the fact that the muster was not called for one hour after the collision.

 

 

 

As I've said, you cannot just decide to hold musters indoors. The locations must meet SOLAS requirements for ingress, egress, capacity, emergency lighting, and time/distance to the boat embarkation locations. This is all done when the ship is designed, before it is built, and is done using crowd and crisis management paradigms that tell the flag state officials and the classification society surveyors that the spaces designed for muster meet the criteria. These design criteria generally are not met by spaces that have not been designed from the beginning to meet them. This is why you will not see the muster stations change on a ship over its life. Newer ships have decreased the size of the promenade decks, in order to maximize revenue generating space inside the ship, so it became mandatory to have indoor musters. But older ships just cannot change because they want to.

 

And, please, again remember that the muster is not about the boats. There are probably 50 or more instances where the passengers were mustered because of an emergency to every time they actually took to the boats. It is about accountability, and when everyone is accounted for, then, based on the particular circumstances of the emergency, people may be moved in groups to other, indoor locations, or allowed to get medications from cabins, or whatever. During the Star Princess fire, where the people were at muster for 7 hours, the Captain directed that passengers could be escorted to take care of needs.

 

And I have been in charge of shipboard emergencies, drills, and training for 25 of my 40 years at sea, and was in charge of over 100 emergency drills on cruise ships.

Interesting information. Still, I would have hated to have to muster outside when we were rocking and rolling through the remnants of Patricia last November. Most people stayed in their rooms, and we found the sea sick bags out as well as the pills at guest relations. Slippery decks, and hard to walk, hanging onto the hallway railings for dear life.

 

Also in Royal Caribbean's ships, they probably do muster outside because they keep turning more public rooms into guest rooms during drydock. Check out before and after deck plans for the Voyager and Freedom class ships. On Radiance class, they've changed dining rooms into more guest rooms. Would be really cute if they lost a muster station because they decided to add cabins there.

 

Also, what are all those ships going to do if the powers that be decide to change the rules to no outside muster stations because a bunch of people were swept off the ship by a rogue wave while standing at attention during muster? A bunch of ships will suddenly need to be decommissioned.

Edited January 29, 2016 by knittinggirl

[chengkp75]

Interesting information. Still, I would have hated to have to muster outside when we were rocking and rolling through the remnants of Patricia last November. Most people stayed in their rooms, and we found the sea sick bags out as well as the pills at guest relations. Slippery decks, and hard to walk, hanging onto the hallway railings for dear life.

 

Also in Royal Caribbean's ships, they probably do muster outside because they keep turning more public rooms into guest rooms during drydock. Check out before and after deck plans for the Voyager and Freedom class ships. On Radiance class, they've changed dining rooms into more guest rooms. Would be really cute if they lost a muster station because they decided to add cabins there.

 

Also, what are all those ships going to do if the powers that be decide to change the rules to no outside muster stations because a bunch of people were swept off the ship by a rogue wave while standing at attention during muster? A bunch of ships will suddenly need to be decommissioned.

 

Generally, the reason for doing indoor musters is lack of space on the deck. Per SOLAS, on deck by the boats is the preferred location, but if there is not sufficient space, then it can be elsewhere, usually indoors. So, changing public spaces into cabins has very little to do with changing muster locations. If there was sufficient space on deck initially then they wouldn't have had indoor musters that would need to be moved back outdoors.

 

First off, the muster drill is held in port, not where rogue waves would come and get you. Second, please remember how rare actual roque waves are. Thirdly, it is at the Captain's discretion to move a muster location for the safety of the passengers in a given situation. What if the fire was in the dining room where your muster station was? Same thing as mustering on deck in rough weather. The alternative locations cannot be the permanent, primary locations because they don't meet all the criteria, but can be used in an emergency, if required.

 

And, in general, rule changes to IMO regulations do not apply to existing ships, unless they are readily accomplished. Look at the "Safe Return to Port" rules that affect all ships built after 2010, that requires the ship to be able to lose one engine room and one propulsion system to flood or fire, and still be able to return to port under its own power. No ship built before 2010 is held to this standard.

Edited January 29, 2016 by chengkp75

[knittinggirl]

What does SOLAS mean?

 

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[Vict0riann]

I do feel that the way HAL is doing it now is an improvement - you are told to return to your stateroom and wait to be summoned to your muster station. I try to make myself a little mental map of how I get there in case it's dark or smoky, etc., in the event of a real emergency - something like "turn right out of the room, go to staircase on left, down 2 flights, turn left to outside deck, our lifeboat is third from end".

[Topsham]

What does SOLAS mean?

 

 

 

 

 

The International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS) is an international maritime safety treaty. It ensures that ships flagged by signatory States comply with minimum safety standards in construction, equipment and operation. The SOLAS Convention in its successive forms is generally regarded as the most important of all international treaties concerning the safety of merchant ships

[kazu]

Devil's advocate - For all those concerned about rough weather, hot weather and cold weather and rogue waves....... Fair warning - if there is an emergency and you do need to assemble for lifeboats to abandon ship, you will most likely face at least one of those on any cruise line. Lifeboats are outside and you are going to have to go there to get in.

 

Perhaps it is not all that bad an idea to prepare for the possibility and the conditions?

[chengkp75]

What does SOLAS mean?

 

Sent from my KFTHWI using Tapatalk HD

 

The International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS) is an international maritime safety treaty. It ensures that ships flagged by signatory States comply with minimum safety standards in construction, equipment and operation. The SOLAS Convention in its successive forms is generally regarded as the most important of all international treaties concerning the safety of merchant ships

 

 

The International Maritime Organization (IMO) is an international agency under the aegis of the UN, with a mandate to formulate maritime safety and environmental regulations. All countries signatory to the various IMO conventions must pass enabling legislation in their country for the IMO regulations to become law. SOLAS, STCW, MARPOL, ISM, ISPS and MLC (acronyms you can google) are all conventions formulated by the IMO as international shipping regulations. SOLAS, as Topsham says, is the foundation block of all maritime regulations, and was started in the wake of the Titanic investigation.

[Ricktan]

I have no idea. But I think the current drill could be eliminated totally and not impact passenger safety to any significant degree. Or just make it voluntary (more on that below).

 

And if you are not so motivated, that could very well be a reasonable choice. Some people buy insurance; some don't. Everyone has a different level of risk tolerance. I would say a huge number of people would not attend the drill if it were voluntary. ;)

 

 

JMO, not a fact but......I'm sure if it was voluntary you are correct that's lots would not bother because most people think nothing bad will ever happen to them. I have a funny feeling that if it were voluntary and then there was an actual emergency however, the ones would who chose NOT to attend would be the first ones (if they make it off) to contact an attorney because the cruise line did not better prepare them!

[Topsham]

Just in case you don't like being squeezed out on deck for a muster... well, you better dwell on the possibility of using a lifeboat for several hours.... possibly days. Cramped.. and no air con!

 

 

Mega Lifeboat

 

The SOLAS regulation on Life Saving Equipment (LSA) code 4.4.3.1 Mega Lifeboatstates: “No lifeboat shall be approved to accommodate more than 150 persons.” However, the regulations do actually provide procedures for using lifeboats of greater capacity providing it can be demonstrated that they have an equivalent level of safety. Schat-Harding has developed a 370-person lifeboat and davit system. The Oasis of the Seas cruise ship was the first vessel to be fitted with these new mega lifeboats.

 

As the size and capacity of modern cruise ship has increased there Oasis of the seas mega lifeboatsbecomes a potential problem of having sufficient space to fit the required number of lifeboats. The cruise ship Oasis of the Sea is fitted with 18 of the new mega lifeboats. A total of over 44 of the traditional 150 persons lifeboats would have to be fitted to accommodate the same number of passengers. The overall length of the Oasis of the Seas has an overall length of 360m. The typical length of a 150 person lifeboat would be approximately 9.6m. So if fitted at a single level they would take up a length of over 210m (noise-to-tail) on each side of the vessel.

 

The new CRW55 mega lifeboat has a catamaran hull with a length of 16.7m, breath of 5.6m, weights 17tonnes in stowed condition and 45tonnes when fully loaded with passengers and crew. It is fitted with two 170hp diesel engines providing a top speed of 6 knots and twin rudders for increased manoeuvrability.

 

The seating is arranged in two levels designed to reduce the time taken to board all the people into the lifeboat. The main cabin deck will seat 280 people in longitudinal benches and the upper seating area will seat 80 persons in longitudinal benches and another 10 in the large steering tower near the helmsman’s position. The lifeboat also has an onboard toilet and two stretchers stored in the wheelhouse.stowed mega lifeboat

 

These mega lifeboats are fabricated from fibreglass reinforced polyester using a mould vacuum process. The seating area is contained within a self-draining inner skin and all the walking areas within the cabin have a non-skid coating.

 

The lifeboats are stowed and launched from a specially designed davit systems, which allows them to be lowered directly into the water from their stowed position rather than having to first swing out the davit and lifeboat before launch. The winches have a retraction system to lift the lowing block free from the lifeboat canopy and a Launched mega lifeboat retardation function to reduce the forces on the davit, winch system and lifeboat hook when stopped.

 

The mega lifeboats are hung from two 25tonne wear-less cam system quick release hooks, which have a clear locked or unlocked visual indicator. Passenger embarkation is directly into the lifeboat in its stowed position through four colour coded doors leading to the ergonomically designed colour coded seating areas.

[serendipity1499]

Devil's advocate - For all those concerned about rough weather, hot weather and cold weather and rogue waves....... Fair warning - if there is an emergency and you do need to assemble for lifeboats to abandon ship, you will most likely face at least one of those on any cruise line. Lifeboats are outside and you are going to have to go there to get in.

 

Perhaps it is not all that bad an idea to prepare for the possibility and the conditions?

 

JMO, not a fact but......I'm sure if it was voluntary you are correct that's lots would not bother because most people think nothing bad will ever happen to them. I have a funny feeling that if it were voluntary and then there was an actual emergency however, the ones would who chose NOT to attend would be the first ones (if they make it off) to contact an attorney because the cruise line did not better prepare them!

 

Completely agree with you both!

[knittinggirl]

Part of Concordia's disaster stemmed from the fact they didn't do muster drill before they ran aground. How many people will bother looking at where their muster station is on the back of their door. It took me several cruises before we learned the muster station is also on the seapass card. But still, knowing where the station is from a number could be hard in an emergency.

[knittinggirl]

18 mega-tenders w/ 2 doors to board (36 doors), still means you're boarding them slower than 44 of the regular tenders. Having been on tenders in rough seas, it takes time to board everyone. We were on a rough tender in Maui, and it rocked so badly, someone fell coming down the stairs from the second level.

 

But it got me wondering. Do traditional tenders have restrooms?

Edited January 30, 2016 by knittinggirl

[chengkp75]

Just in case you don't like being squeezed out on deck for a muster... well, you better dwell on the possibility of using a lifeboat for several hours.... possibly days. Cramped.. and no air con!

 

 

Hey, Cap, how about we tell them what size the seats are in any of those lifeboats? Lifeboat seating is designed for an 75kg person (165 lb) and the seat size is: 420mm (16.9") wide by 635mm (25") from the front of your knees to the back of your butt. Measure yourself.

 

And contrary to what most cruisers tell themselves, once you are in the boats, it most probably will be a minimum of a day, if not more, until conditions are safe enough to transfer people from the boats to rescue ships.

 

And while the mega lifeboats are the first to have toilets, they don't have a bathroom, just a toilet, so forget modesty.

[chengkp75]

18 mega-tenders w/ 2 doors to board (36 doors), still means you're boarding them slower than 44 of the regular tenders. Having been on tenders in rough seas, it takes time to board everyone. We were on a rough tender in Maui, and it rocked so badly, someone fell coming down the stairs from the second level.

 

But it got me wondering. Do traditional tenders have restrooms?

 

You would not be boarding the lifeboat/tenders in an emergency while the boat was in the water like you do for tendering. The boats are lowered to the embarkation deck (promenade), and lashed to the ship so there is no movement between the boat and ship. Once everyone is in the boat, it is lowered, with you, to the water and let go.

 

Yes, all lifeboats have "restrooms". It's the big blue, wet place just outside the boat.

 

And those mega boats are not just tenders, they are the lifeboats. Unlike smaller boats where the tenders are twin screw and the lifeboats are single screw, these lifeboats are twin screw as well.

 

And what is referred to as "the upper seating area" is not the open top deck of a tender boat, it is seating inside the boat where the people in the "lower seating area" are looking at your butt, because you are sitting over their legs.

Edited January 30, 2016 by chengkp75

[bshow]

JMO, not a fact but......I'm sure if it was voluntary you are correct that's lots would not bother because most people think nothing bad will ever happen to them. I have a funny feeling that if it were voluntary and then there was an actual emergency however, the ones would who chose NOT to attend would be the first ones (if they make it off) to contact an attorney because the cruise line did not better prepare them!

 

 

Yes, possibly. Especially given the state of jurisprudence wrt struct liability, assumption of risk, etc.

[OceanTraveller4ever]

The muster drill is important in the fact that it is the only 30 minutes that reminds the passengers of the reality of a ship at sea, and what could happen.

It is the only reference to the seriousness of any situations that may arise during the entire cruise.

So, 30 minutes of attention, is not so much to ask for.

[bshow]

You must have really hated school fire drills.

 

No, you're wrong. As have been all the other attempts to psychoanalyze me or impute various attitudes to me. I was, well, a *kid* at the time, and I was mostly indifferent to the fire drills.

 

I don't hate the muster drill (and you won't find me actually saying that anywhere, but that fact doesn't inconvenience my critics, lol). As I think I stated originally, it's a minor annoyance or indignity. I'm personally able to stand without difficulty, and it's never been much of an issue.

 

I attend the dumb thing as required, stand where I'm told, pipe up when my room number is called, pay attention to the announcements and instruction, etc. like a good citizen. Nobody is inconvenienced by me one bit.

 

It's still ridiculous and ineffective. It purports to achieve something that it doesn't in fact achieve. Just attend one of these things and look around...

 

Cheers :)

[Topsham]

You still think it is 'ridiculous and ineffective.'

 

 

 

If you are so 'smart', then why don't you come up with better ideas to deal with emergencies on board ship.

[Lizzie68]

No, you're wrong. As have been all the other attempts to psychoanalyze me or impute various attitudes to me. I was, well, a *kid* at the time, and I was mostly indifferent to the fire drills.

 

I don't hate the muster drill (and you won't find me actually saying that anywhere, but that fact doesn't inconvenience my critics, lol). As I think I stated originally, it's a minor annoyance or indignity. I'm personally able to stand without difficulty, and it's never been much of an issue.

 

I attend the dumb thing as required, stand where I'm told, pipe up when my room number is called, pay attention to the announcements and instruction, etc. like a good citizen. Nobody is inconvenienced by me one bit.

 

It's still ridiculous and ineffective. It purports to achieve something that it doesn't in fact achieve. Just attend one of these things and look around...

 

Cheers :)

 

As to your last sentence, it's better than nothing. Nothing led to what happened with the Concordia disaster.

[knittinggirl]

Hey, Cap, how about we tell them what size the seats are in any of those lifeboats? Lifeboat seating is designed for an 75kg person (165 lb) and the seat size is: 420mm (16.9") wide by 635mm (25") from the front of your knees to the back of your butt. Measure yourself.

 

And while the mega lifeboats are the first to have toilets, they don't have a bathroom, just a toilet, so forget modesty.

 

16.9" wide is as bad as the airlines. How many cruisers are 165# or smaller? Where does our medicine go? In our laps? Looks like we'll be cozy. A toilet is better than hanging over the edge and using the ocean. Does the toilet flush? I'd be surprised if DH would let us cruise on the Oasis ships.

 

I bet the passengers on the Concordia wished they'd had a "ridiculous and ineffective" muster drill before all the chaos.

 

Some of the crew blew off our muster drill concerns. Once we had two different muster drills on our card, and the Guest Relations told us that was correct. Later I had to get a new card, and another guest relations person made sure my muster drill station was the same as DH's. We arrived at muster drill, and the crew didn't tell me go move to the other station.

[bshow]

As to your last sentence, it's better than nothing. Nothing led to what happened with the Concordia disaster.

 

Putting aside the huge issue of whether that last assertion is actually true, I've not advocated "nothing". Why do folks persist in attacking straw men?

 

I agree with you the current system is possibly better than "nothing". That's a long way from effective.

 

There were nearly three times as many deaths (and more than ten times as many injuries) in the 1980 MGM Grand hotel fire as in the Concordia disaster. (There were about 5000 people in the hotel vs. about 4200 people on the ship, so the magnitudes were roughly comparable.) And yet, we do "nothing". When you check into a hotel, should everyone be marched to the parking lot where they line up for roll call and listen to the mandatory safety briefing "for their own good"? Why not? Wouldn't that be better than "nothing?"

 

Cheers :)

[dakrewser]

There were nearly three times as many deaths (and more than ten times as many injuries) in the 1980 MGM Grand hotel fire as in the Concordia disaster. (There were about 5000 people in the hotel vs. about 4200 people on the ship, so the magnitudes were roughly comparable.) And yet, we do "nothing". When you check into a hotel, should everyone be marched to the parking lot where they line up for roll call and listen to the mandatory safety briefing "for their own good"? Why not? Wouldn't that be better than "nothing?"

 

Cheers :)

 

So since you can't seem to win your argument about muster drills you decide, instead, to talk about hotels??? Sounds like the Chewbacca defense...

 

:rolleyes:

[bshow]

So since you can't seem to win your argument about muster drills you decide, instead, to talk about hotels??? Sounds like the Chewbacca defense...

 

:rolleyes:

 

Hi dakrewser,

 

Merely an exploration, by analogy, of whether "better than nothing" is a valid criterion. I already conceded that the muster drill is better than nothing.

 

There's no argument to be "won". Just observation and discussion. I have no interest in bending anyone to my will. I just make observations and ask questions.

 

I confess that am ignorant of the "Chewbacca defense", sorry...

 

Cheers :)

[bshow]

You still think it is 'ridiculous and ineffective.'

 

 

 

If you are so 'smart', then why don't you come up with better ideas to deal with emergencies on board ship.

 

I don't have any interest in being a world-improver. The world has enough of those already; what could I add? I just observe and give my perspective. I try to be friendly and not argue ad hominem.

 

And yes, I still think it is ridiculous. And (mostly) ineffective.

 

But if I see you on the ship, I will buy you a beer! (After the drill, of course!)

 

Cheers :)

[Topsham]

I don't have any interest in being a world-improver. The world has enough of those already; what could I add? I just observe and give my perspective. I try to be friendly and not argue ad hominem.

 

And yes, I still think it is ridiculous. And (mostly) ineffective.

 

But if I see you on the ship, I will buy you a beer! (After the drill, of course!)

 

Cheers :)

 

 

Damn right I'd have with you! :)

 

I don't want be a 'PITA', but I think your comments are based on a lack of good knowledge on the subject. Anyhow who deals with safety on board thinks differently. You are thinking from the perspective of a passenger. To be honest, the Muster Drill should be a whole lot more 'involved', but for obvious reasons, it wouldn't work. The present drill is the bare MINIMUM experience that a passenger could stand. That does not mean that the whole drill should be scrapped. Muster Drills have been standard since the sinking of the TITANIC. The passenger drills are quite tame.... it is the minimum that passengers can stand. Behind the scenes... the drills are nothing like they used to be.... even twenty years ago were differently. For the passengers... it is the standard muster for any ship for a hundred years. The signals, put on your lifejacket and then go to your boat. That is all they want passengers is to understand, "this is not a joke". So saying that the musters are a waste of time....it is not.

 

Eg.... HAL passenger drills are out on deck. Seems like it is nothing. Crowd control? Yes, it is... for good reasons. It helps the crew to deal with the passengers.... in a crowded situation. This is important. So.... the passengers and at least the crew can help passengers out of the ship and out onto the deck. Experience. OK... what about the ships where the passenger muster is held in a lounge or other space. Personally, I do not like it at all. Many reasons. I prefer the HAL method. So.... the drill is held inside. And then what happens in a real situation? Hmmm? You have a thousand passengers in a lounge that have to be escorted from a lounge... away from one area to send them out onto an enclosed deck and then you have to line them up and put into the boats. Meanwhile.... the crew have no first hand experience of taking passengers from to that lounge and then out onto deck for the boats. It is a very vital missing experience.... not only from passengers... from the crew as well.

 

OK... this is just ONE of the reasons drills are done. Might seem unnecessary but it is. The passenger drill is just the small step to the beginning of your cruise. I hope it will be a great cruise, but believe me.... there have been thousands, THOUSANDS passengers that thought the drill was a nonsense and have ended up wet, cramped, cold and seasick in the bottom of a lifeboat!

 

Let's have that second beer!