Carnival Legend dangerous tilt.

[JAMESCC]

I'm surprised this wasn't posted on here already, unless it was and I didn't see it. I was on the Crown Princess when this same thing happened and I have to tell you its the scariest thing ever. It really felt like we were capsizing. Now on another note I think there may be an issue with steering and the azipods. The azipods can go around 360 degree which is really cool and eliminates the need for a rudder. It also makes the ship way more nimble than in the past. That same attribute I think can make things dangerous. If for some reason one or both azipods decides to turn and turn very hard because of either a computer issue or human error something bad can really happen. Crews on the bridge have got to be vigilant and understand VERY quickly when this happens. Here is a link to the story.

 

http://www.aol.com/article/2016/09/08/dont-rock-the-boat-terrifying-moment-as-cruise-ship-suddenly-t/21468157/

 

 

Put my mind at ease that this just happens and I'm making too much of it and that something really horrible can't happen. P.S. I do not believe the 8 degrees tilt figure. They said the same thing on the Crown Princess and it felt way more than 8 degrees.

Edited September 8, 2016 by JAMESCC

[kctwinmommy]

It was posted a few times. Pretty sure it has it's own post somewhere, as well as several other people mentioning it in various Alaska posts. But I'm sure it was scary!

[Domino D]

Here you go

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2396565&highlight=legend

[JAMESCC]

Thanks guys. It was one of those things where I just saw it online and it was just posted so I thought it was a brand new story when it was from a few days ago. Sorry about that.

[chengkp75]

I'm surprised this wasn't posted on here already, unless it was and I didn't see it. I was on the Crown Princess when this same thing happened and I have to tell you its the scariest thing ever. It really felt like we were capsizing. Now on another note I think there may be an issue with steering and the azipods. The azipods can go around 360 degree which is really cool and eliminates the need for a rudder. It also makes the ship way more nimble than in the past. That same attribute I think can make things dangerous. If for some reason one or both azipods decides to turn and turn very hard because of either a computer issue or human error something bad can really happen. Crews on the bridge have got to be vigilant and understand VERY quickly when this happens. Here is a link to the story.

 

http://www.aol.com/article/2016/09/08/dont-rock-the-boat-terrifying-moment-as-cruise-ship-suddenly-t/21468157/

 

 

Put my mind at ease that this just happens and I'm making too much of it and that something really horrible can't happen. P.S. I do not believe the 8 degrees tilt figure. They said the same thing on the Crown Princess and it felt way more than 8 degrees.

 

This can happen even with the older propeller and rudder propulsion system. The Norwegian Sky in 2001 had an incident where she turned sharply at full speed and she listed to the point where there wasn't a single dish or glass not broken, and we disembarked 100 passengers to hospital in Vancouver with broken bones.

 

If you look at the water on the pool deck in the video you link, the water in the corner of the deck looks to be about 10* from the deck. I know that to the uninitiated heeling feels much greater than the actual angles. The fact that I've seen videos and photos of this incident where people were still on their feet tells me that it wasn't much beyond 10*.

 

This phenomenon is called "turn induced heel", and every ship does this when turning sharply at high speed. It's basic physics, the ship heels away from the turn. While it feels scary, the ship will not turn over.

[cruiseonthebrain]

This was posted. We were on this cruise when it happened. No injuries on the ship. We didn't even think it was a big deal because we were in our cabin and not subjected to mass hysteria. All of our drawers did fly out and garbage cans flew out and dumped all over. We were in an aft wrap cabin and I definately got a close up view of the water I did not expect. The Captain did a good job keeping everyone informed ( yes I have read the ignorant reviews about his accent- we understood every word fine even though we are from Oh and TX). It was fine- kind of like hitting a little turbulence on an airplane. Sorry folks- but it wasn't all that traumatic.

[Domino D]

T

This phenomenon is called "turn induced heel", and every ship does this when turning sharply at high speed. It's basic physics, the ship heels away from the turn. While it feels scary, the ship will not turn over.

 

Cheng, I swear I saw some where (a few years ago) that a ship could list up to 60 degrees and still recover. Is that right?

 

Was debating the Poseidon Adventure, of course.

[BoDidly]

Cheng, I swear I saw some where (a few years ago) that a ship could list up to 60 degrees and still recover. Is that right?

 

Was debating the Poseidon Adventure, of course.

 

I don't know but at that angle you would think a person could fall off a ship ;).

[JAMESCC]

This can happen even with the older propeller and rudder propulsion system. The Norwegian Sky in 2001 had an incident where she turned sharply at full speed and she listed to the point where there wasn't a single dish or glass not broken, and we disembarked 100 passengers to hospital in Vancouver with broken bones.

 

If you look at the water on the pool deck in the video you link, the water in the corner of the deck looks to be about 10* from the deck. I know that to the uninitiated heeling feels much greater than the actual angles. The fact that I've seen videos and photos of this incident where people were still on their feet tells me that it wasn't much beyond 10*.

 

This phenomenon is called "turn induced heel", and every ship does this when turning sharply at high speed. It's basic physics, the ship heels away from the turn. While it feels scary, the ship will not turn over.

 

Yeah I think you are right. It feels much worse to the passenger than it actually was. Also I watched the "building of the NCL Breakaway" and during seas trial that ship at full speed made a complete turn that it was turning into its own wake if that is the right word. These stories just scare me and I go off a bit. We are on the "Breakaway" in a few weeks so hopefully no incidents. I'm more worried about a hurricane messing things up more than anything.

[richfret]

When I was in the navy a 1,000 years ago, I was assigned to the Damage Control Center located at the very bottom of the ship. It was so far down that the joke was that after the Captain abandoned the ship, we could then follow. There was a large gage that looked like a clock but only had one hand. At either end of the gage was a red zone. I use to watch that gage and in heavy weather that hand would move from one side to the other as the ship listed from the waves. If the gage hand ever entered the red zone then that meant that the ship's smoke stack had entered the water and that the ship was going to continue it's turn until it was upside down. Like the Poseidon!

 

Needless to say, I never saw it go into the red zone but there were a few times when I thought it just a tad bit too close. I imagine the Cruise Ship Captain was watching that gage closely just as I did.

[BoDidly]

When I was in the navy a 1,000 years ago, I was assigned to the Damage Control Center located at the very bottom of the ship. It was so far down that the joke was that after the Captain abandoned the ship, we could then follow. There was a large gage that looked like a clock but only had one hand. At either end of the gage was a red zone. I use to watch that gage and in heavy weather that hand would move from one side to the other as the ship listed from the waves. If the gage hand ever entered the red zone then that meant that the ship's smoke stack had entered the water and that the ship was going to continue it's turn until it was upside down. Like the Poseidon!

 

Needless to say, I never saw it go into the red zone but there were a few times when I thought it just a tad bit too close. I imagine the Cruise Ship Captain was watching that gage closely just as I did.

 

I enjoyed reading that .

[Domino D]

When I was in the navy a 1,000 years ago, I was assigned to the Damage Control Center located at the very bottom of the ship. It was so far down that the joke was that after the Captain abandoned the ship, we could then follow. There was a large gage that looked like a clock but only had one hand. At either end of the gage was a red zone. I use to watch that gage and in heavy weather that hand would move from one side to the other as the ship listed from the waves. If the gage hand ever entered the red zone then that meant that the ship's smoke stack had entered the water and that the ship was going to continue it's turn until it was upside down. Like the Poseidon!

 

Needless to say, I never saw it go into the red zone but there were a few times when I thought it just a tad bit too close. I imagine the Cruise Ship Captain was watching that gage closely just as I did.

 

Seems like you might know there was a problem, with or without the red zone.

[Domino D]

I don't know but at that angle you would think a person could fall off a ship ;).

 

Yeah, can you imagine.

[chengkp75]

Cheng, I swear I saw some where (a few years ago) that a ship could list up to 60 degrees and still recover. Is that right?

 

Was debating the Poseidon Adventure, of course.

 

I remember a thread on ships listing or rolling, and someone said the Captain on a cruise ship had mentioned that his ship could go to 60* and return. While this is certainly possible with some ships, I'm not sure that today's cruise ships could. There are several factors, and without getting too technical, it depends on the difference in height of the center of gravity and the center of buoyancy, which creates a "righting moment" to return the ship to upright. And while cruise ships tend to have a pretty large "metacentric height" (this difference in heights), which makes them "stiff" or resistant to start rolling but quick to recover (meaning at 60* they would have a very strong righting moment), long before 60* another factor will come into play. This is "deck edge immersion", where the open promenade deck starts to be submerged, and water starts to flood through the non-watertight doors into the ship, and then "downflood". This downflooding is a ship killer. So, it really depends on the beam of the ship and the height of the promenade deck above the waterline (the reason the QM2 and "true" ocean liners have higher promenade decks) as to whether or not the ship could recover from a 60* roll.

 

I, personally, many years ago, was on a ship in a hurricane that experienced 40-45* rolls, and while extremely hazardous to move and complete your duties, and extremely uncomfortable, no one fell overboard from this.

 

Turn induced heel is one reason that folks complain about the time it takes a cruise ship to turn around for a person overboard. One poster above mentioned seeing sea trials where the ship does a "Williamson turn", which is designed to turn a ship back onto the reciprocal of its track, so you can backtrack and find the person. This turn, and a couple of others used in various man overboard scenarios, requires full helm to accomplish, and if done at full speed even a low in the water tanker will heel over. This thread shows what would happen if a cruise ship did that, so the ship will be slowed down and then turned. Slowing the ship can take a mile or more, depending on how hard the Captain wants to toss the passengers and dishware around as well. With today's GPS systems, when a man overboard is noted, the ECDIS (electronic chart) has a button to mark the ship's position at that time, and then the ship can be brought back to that exact spot in other ways, more efficiently, than the old Williamson turns.

[bar1068]

I think we may have experienced a turn induced heel on the Sunshine a few years ago on the TA cruise, that brought the Sunshine from Barcelona to New Orleans.

 

As we cruised through the gulf of Mexico approaching the Mississippi river, we were out on the forward deck, forward of our 4J cabin to watch as we started up the river to New Orleans. As the ship was coming to the mouth of the Mississippi river, we felt a "list" to the starboard side. Nothing as severe as the Legend, but definitely noticeable. Couple people freaked a little, but no craziness. Eventually of course we "leveled out" as the ship started up the river.

 

The only thing that made this "more noticeable" to us, was due to me reading absurd posts on here while the Sunshine (please, not looking to debate this ship again here) was in dry dock for it's conversion from the Destiny. There were posts here saying how the engineers and architects "designed it wrong" and the pool in the serenity area was "not centered properly", and all that meant that when fully fueled, the Sunshine would list to one side, thus making the TA "impossible" unless it could some how refuel part way across the Atlantic. So when the ship shifted during the turn, I mentioned to my wife and brother in law how they were right, the ship does list!! Couple chuckles, and we went on enjoying the view and starting our sail up the Mississippi.

[turquoise 6]

I am reading all of your posts and it's very interesting. All knowledgable

I was on the RMS Queen Mary 2 sailing from England to NY in August

It was 3 am when I was awoken , when I almost feel out of bed. Glasses were falling, in the state room. The ship was at a tilt. I put on the CCTV for info

We were in a storm .

We were like that for more than a hour

Later on at noon. Capt. Wells said we were had a 5 degree tilt. (It felt much more,,, as there was damage all over the ship)

The high winds of over 100 mph. Force 12 storm and a rouge wave tilted us

And was fixed by adding ballast .

No mention of the pods.

Any ideas?

Thanks

[erinmarie424]

Good time to be hanging out by the quarter pusher machines in the casino....

[chengkp75]

I am reading all of your posts and it's very interesting. All knowledgable

I was on the RMS Queen Mary 2 sailing from England to NY in August

It was 3 am when I was awoken , when I almost feel out of bed. Glasses were falling, in the state room. The ship was at a tilt. I put on the CCTV for info

We were in a storm .

We were like that for more than a hour

Later on at noon. Capt. Wells said we were had a 5 degree tilt. (It felt much more,,, as there was damage all over the ship)

The high winds of over 100 mph. Force 12 storm and a rouge wave tilted us

And was fixed by adding ballast .

No mention of the pods.

Any ideas?

Thanks

 

Do you mean you were heeled over for more than an hour? If so, this had nothing to do with a rogue wave, as this would have merely caused a large roll and then back the other way. Sustained heeling is caused by "wind heel". This is when the wind is taken on one side of the ship, and the force of the wind heels the ship over. They will move ballast, fresh water, and fuel to counteract, but this takes some time. I suspect that the Captain decided that in order to reduce rolling by keeping the seas and swells pretty much on the bow, he had to take the wind on one side, which resulted in the heel. This is pretty common on ships, but the high wind speed certainly increased the heel, and the amount of weight needed to be shifted to counteract.

 

As for damage, plates and glasses will start to slide and fall at 5-10* unless placed on special non-skid mats or the tablecloths are wetted down. Drawers that were not properly latched can slam open causing damage, and doors not secured will swing and cause damage. It will take a bit more heel to get things like ceiling panels and such to come down.

[turquoise 6]

Do you mean you were heeled over for more than an hour? If so, this had nothing to do with a rogue wave, as this would have merely caused a large roll and then back the other way. Sustained heeling is caused by "wind heel". This is when the wind is taken on one side of the ship, and the force of the wind heels the ship over. They will move ballast, fresh water, and fuel to counteract, but this takes some time. I suspect that the Captain decided that in order to reduce rolling by keeping the seas and swells pretty much on the bow, he had to take the wind on one side, which resulted in the heel. This is pretty common on ships, but the high wind speed certainly increased the heel, and the amount of weight needed to be shifted to counteract.

 

As for damage, plates and glasses will start to slide and fall at 5-10* unless placed on special non-skid mats or the tablecloths are wetted down. Drawers that were not properly latched can slam open causing damage, and doors not secured will swing and cause damage. It will take a bit more heel to get things like ceiling panels and such to come down.

Hi

Thank you for your knowable response.

We were tilted until day light. It was an intense storm that developed off

Newfoundland the first week of August

By 6 am the ship was on level. But there was broken glass , etc

All over the ship

Now the QM2 just went over a major refit, and the added on deck , which

Was open space, new staterooms adding more tonnage and height.

I wonder if this added to the unstablity?

[sanmarcosman]

Good time to be hanging out by the quarter pusher machines in the casino....

 

Genius ;)

[Trish12345]

Good time to be hanging out by the quarter pusher machines in the casino....

 

Now that would be hysterical!

[chengkp75]

Hi

Thank you for your knowable response.

We were tilted until day light. It was an intense storm that developed off

Newfoundland the first week of August

By 6 am the ship was on level. But there was broken glass , etc

All over the ship

Now the QM2 just went over a major refit, and the added on deck , which

Was open space, new staterooms adding more tonnage and height.

I wonder if this added to the unstablity?

 

While an added deck will increase the "windage" (the surface area subjected to the wind, given the percentage of increase of area, it wouldn't be that significant.

 

Most topsides (cabins and passenger areas) of cruise ships don't really weigh that much, compared to the hull and machinery and liquids below the waterline, so the change in the stability again would not amount to much. And while the "tonnage" has gone up, remember that gross tonnage does not equate to weight, but volume inside the ship.

 

I think the heel was simply caused by a change in course to keep the seas on the bow, which resulted in more wind heel than expected. Sometimes, when you know you're going to do this, you will start to move weight on the ship to put some list on into the wind, so when you heel over from the wind, it is from a position starting the other side of upright.

 

Sometimes a ship finds itself in a weather situation like this, when the ship's operations has produced a lot of tanks (fuel, water) that are neither completely full or completely empty, or what we call "slack". The liquid in these slack tanks will move to the low side when a ship heels, and so make the heel more pronounced, and require that much more pumping of liquids to the high side to counteract. Normal procedures are to keep the number of slack tanks at a minimum, but sometimes that just isn't possible.

[Domino D]

I remember a thread on ships listing or rolling, and someone said the Captain on a cruise ship had mentioned that his ship could go to 60* and return. While this is certainly possible with some ships, I'm not sure that today's cruise ships could. There are several factors, and without getting too technical, it depends on the difference in height of the center of gravity and the center of buoyancy, which creates a "righting moment" to return the ship to upright.

 

Thanks for explanation Cheng. It's great to have you on here, to give us straight facts.

[Domino D]

Good time to be hanging out by the quarter pusher machines in the casino....

 

Hilarious. You should add this to the "Cruise Tips" forum. Might as well be prepared.

[Domino D]

Most topsides (cabins and passenger areas) of cruise ships don't really weigh that much, compared to the hull and machinery and liquids below the waterline, so the change in the stability again would not amount to much. And while the "tonnage" has gone up, remember that gross tonnage does not equate to weight, but volume inside the ship.

 

Great point. Never thought about the weight distribution.