New rules for wheelchair users

[sandancer]

I’m the OP and my original post was in March this year. The agent in the future cruise office was adamant that we could not book a standard cabin if we wanted to take a folding wheelchair. We gave up on booking onboard and were able to book with our usual travel agent when we got home. So she got it wrong. She interpreted the regulations wrongly but it’s interesting that she knew that this was coming. 

[TigerB]

Thanks for that information, @sandancer. 

So, in essence, P&O have known for almost six months, or more, that they would be bringing in this change. Long enough to give guests sufficient notice, and be able to explain the full reasons why it is being implemented. Instead though, they announce it just shy of the implementation date, without proper explanation and, in some cases, cancel some passengers' cruises with just a few days notice.  What a class act there are!🙄

 

[Megabear2]

3 hours ago, david63 said:

On the basis that P&O are selling cruises two, or more years, in advance has anybody heard or seen what happens if during the intervening period a passenger's circumstances change and need an evac chair. Will P&O give a full refund of all monies paid when you have to cancel or will they just refer to the T&Cs and say "tuff" and keep the money?

 

I doubt that many, if any at all, travel policies would cover such a situation.

Regarding insurance it would appear that guests who have bookings cancelled ARE going to be directed to their insurers if no cabin or evacuation arrangements are available.

 

I have just cancelled my one remaining P&O booking for reasons unrelated to this and ironically booked several more Cunard cruises by way of replacement.  I am using a travel agent for two of these - someone I know very well  - and as a result have had sight of the attached this evening.  This document is a guide/aid to travel agents on the new policies and gives instructions on agents' actions in certain scenarios and events.  

 

There are several references to directing their customers to their insurers, starting almost immediately.  

 

As you say, it is extremely doubtful an travel insurer will offer this cover.  I may check with P&O/Cunard's recommended UK insurer, Holiday Extras as their CEO has been extremely forthcoming and helpful on other issues where the cruise lines stated insurers would pay when no cover is offered by any insurer.

 

 

AccessibilityTradeFAQs_NAM_09032024 (1).pdf

Edited September 12 by Megabear2

[sandancer]

8 hours ago, TigerB said:

Thanks for that information, @sandancer. 

So, in essence, P&O have known for almost six months, or more, that they would be bringing in this change. Long enough to give guests sufficient notice, and be able to explain the full reasons why it is being implemented. Instead though, they announce it just shy of the implementation date, without proper explanation and, in some cases, cancel some passengers' cruises with just a few days notice.  What a class act there are!🙄

 

I do wonder if this agent had heard a rumour and decided to implement the policy without having the full details to hand. Otherwise she would not have included a lightweight folding wheelchair as being unsuitable for a standard cabin. She kept referring to a new law coming into effect in April. I had no confidence that she actually knew what she was talking about. 

[AchileLauro]

11 hours ago, Dabra said:

We have just tried to book a cruise on Arcadia. We have always had a folding wheelchair in the standard cabin. Latest news is that all wheelchair users full time or casual need an evacuation chair assistance. We could not book as there were none left. Not sure if you can bring your own as the agent talked about a rollator. She checked on Aurora for next April and that had none left.

A rollator is no substitute for an evacuation chair.

Providing your own evacuation chair would not be a solution as you need at least two trained able bodied persons to safely operate even the most basic of evacuate chairs on a staircase.

[david63]

12 hours ago, Megabear2 said:

Regarding insurance it would appear that guests who have bookings cancelled ARE going to be directed to their insurers if no cabin or evacuation arrangements are available.

So after reading that document which says nothing the inference is that if your circumstances change and you cannot be accommodated then it is the passenger who has to cancel and by doing so in effect looses whatever monies that they have paid whereas logic would say that it is P&O/Carnival that are cancelling the cruise which would mean that P&O/Carnival would have to refund any monies.

 

I can see P&O/Carnival in court before long.

[Gettingwarmer]

13 hours ago, Megabear2 said:

Regarding insurance it would appear that guests who have bookings cancelled ARE going to be directed to their insurers if no cabin or evacuation arrangements are available.

 

I have just cancelled my one remaining P&O booking for reasons unrelated to this and ironically booked several more Cunard cruises by way of replacement.  I am using a travel agent for two of these - someone I know very well  - and as a result have had sight of the attached this evening.  This document is a guide/aid to travel agents on the new policies and gives instructions on agents' actions in certain scenarios and events.  

 

There are several references to directing their customers to their insurers, starting almost immediately.  

 

As you say, it is extremely doubtful an travel insurer will offer this cover.  I may check with P&O/Cunard's recommended UK insurer, Holiday Extras as their CEO has been extremely forthcoming and helpful on other issues where the cruise lines stated insurers would pay when no cover is offered by any insurer.

 

 

AccessibilityTradeFAQs_NAM_09032024 (1).pdf 214.99 kB · 61 downloads

I can see that if it was a recent accident or injury or illness that had necessitated the wheelchair and therefore the evacuation chair it could be covered by the insurance. If it was a deterioration of an already illness then maybe not. 
They are advising back to insurers first but is this really fair. 

[Selbourne]

59 minutes ago, david63 said:

logic would say that it is P&O/Carnival that are cancelling the cruise which would mean that P&O/Carnival would have to refund any monies.

 

I can see P&O/Carnival in court before long.

I’m inclined to agree. P&O accepted the booking under the conditions that applied at the time. They have subsequently changed the rules, so I would have thought have breached the contract. On that basis, they should surely refund the passenger in full? I can’t see why on earth insurers should bear the cost. 

 

Cruise companies (not just P&O) seem to be a law unto themselves. I’ve never got my head around the missed ports situation. I know of no other holiday where you can be sold a holiday to X place, never get there, and effectively be told “tough. Speak to your insurers”. The amazing thing is that us Brits just tend to accept these things and shrug our shoulders which, of course, allows them to get away with it.
 

This new scenario is much more serious though and I suspect that it will only be a matter of time until they cancel the cruise of someone who has the drive, determination and (potentially) funds to take them on legally over this. In the meantime, the bad PR will continue. Even if we accept that the new rule makes sense (and I’m not sure that I do), nobody seems to be in disagreement with the fact that this whole business has been handled appallingly. Carnival U.K. must have very weak leadership to allow all this bad press to continue. Someone needs to get a grip of this. 

[Megabear2]

9 minutes ago, Gettingwarmer said:

I can see that if it was a recent accident or injury or illness that had necessitated the wheelchair and therefore the evacuation chair it could be covered by the insurance. If it was a deterioration of an already illness then maybe not. 
They are advising back to insurers first but is this really fair. 

They have history on passing things back to insurers for matters they know are uninsurable.  I had a great deal of correspondence with Holiday Extras and the FCA on the last occasion they did this sort of thing and the replies were very simple: no cover for the individual just because the cruise line changed the rules.  It got very close to my family taking a case against P&O but after pressure (from their recommended insurers I believe) they changed the rules so we couldn't test it.

 

To be accepted as a cancellation on medical grounds (such as the broken leg) insurers will insist on a medical report stating a passenger cannot travel for medical reasons.  A broken leg does not fall into cover for non travel on medical grounds unless there are serious complications.

 

These "advice notes" are applying rules retrospectively to people who booked in good faith, some a very long time ago.  There is already a very grey area as you cannot insure two/three years in advance so technically your deposit can be uninsured - there is no guarantee the insurer will renew your policy and you may become uninsurable if your condition worsens.  This is catch 22 now, for your disability you book early to get on however having done that two years out, the rules are changed and you're in a race with possibly a hundred others to get one of these new limited availability cabins and are being effectively told if there isn't one on your booked cruise you are going to have to take any old cruise offered where there's a chair, cabin or assistance otherwise your money is lost (assuming there is no insurance cover which I'm going to check next week once I get past my covid).

[Cathygh]

16 hours ago, Megabear2 said:

 

 

 

AccessibilityTradeFAQs_NAM_09032024 (1).pdf 214.99 kB · 65 downloads

Thank you for posting the document. I was not aware that people with certain mental health problems should also request assistance, anad have passed this on to family memebers who may require it.

BTW I am being a bit nosey, can I ask why you have cancelled all of your P&O cruises?

[Megabear2]

1 minute ago, Cathygh said:

Thank you for posting the document. I was not aware that people with certain mental health problems should also request assistance, anad have passed this on to family memebers who may require it.

BTW I am being a bit nosey, can I ask why you have cancelled all of your P&O cruises?

No it's not nosey but I'll write about the reasons when I sum up our just finished cruise. Just not happy with paying a larger sum (for us) for something we feel has deteriorated .

[TigerB]

Well, we've just been forced to cancel our cruise next November. We were booked into a partially accessible inside cabin on Iona, which, as I have written on another thread, has been perfectly suitable for our lass and her power chair on four previous cruises.

 

The expected call came on Wednesday. I asked if she was responding to my (heated) email or if she was one of the agents tasked with calling guests to give them bad news. It was the latter.

 

I asked her just why the policy had changed; "It's a health and safety issue; in case of an evacuation or an incident with the mobility device, crew need to be able to get into the cabin and find it easily. Some cabins have pillars in them. I think the cabin you have may be too small for them to do that".  Well, that was a red rag to a bull !!

I tell her we have stayed in a fully accessible balcony cabin previously, and that have a pillar in it.

I tell her that we have stayed in a partially adapted inside cabin on four previous cruises, and my wife has been able to move around in her power chair just fine.

I tell her that, when we are in bed the chair is stored in the hallway area.

I tell her that the hallway area inside a partially accessible cabin is exactly the same dimensions as in a fully accessible cabin; it is only when you enter the bedroom area that the floorspace is bigger in the fully accessible cabins.

"So, it makes no difference whether we are in a partially accessible cabin or a fully accessible cabin, a crew member just needs to enter the cabin and the chair is right there in front of them".

She said she understood what I was explaining, but it was a company wide policy change.

"Sorry", I said, cutting her off; "I know you don't have the answers, and are just repeating what you've been told, but this whole situation is ill thought out and penalises disabled passengers who need an accessible cabin."  I went on to say that some users of mobility scooters don't necessarily need an accessible cabin, and by forcing them into one prevents a disabled person that needs all the adaptations from booking one. She agreed, and went back to the 'new company policy' line. To be fair to her, she was tasked with a difficult job, hadn't been given the full story, and had a script to stick to.

 

"So, what are our options"?

She said they were these:

(1) Change to a more suitable cabin,

(2) Change the wheelchair to a manual one,

(3) Transfer to another cruise outside the standard T&C's,

(4) Cancel for a full refund outside the standard T&C's.

 

"I have checked for fully accessible cabins on your cruise, and there are none available; sorry".

"I knew you would say that".

 

"Can your wife bring on a manual wheelchair"?   Another red rag!  We had pulled over in the car to take the call and it was on speaker. I feel certain that the CSA would have heard the response from the fish-wife Hull lass that my our lass can turn into when hearing such a stupid question!  My explanation used less f-words! I told her that she last used a manual chair eleven years ago, and using a power chair gives her a great deal more independence; P&O, in forcing her to then change back to a manual wheelchair, strips her of that independence. I also told her that, ironically, the manual chair we have in the garage is bigger than her power chair and she wouldn't be able to manoeuvre it in a partially accessible cabin.

 

"I'm sorry, that just leaves us with the options of transferring your cruise, or refunding you".

"When do you need a decision"?

"As soon as possible, and before the 17th".

I asked her to call back on Friday, today.

 

We didn't bother looking for another cruise. We have one booked for next October, which our lass really wants to go on. Luckily, it's in a fully accessible cabin. She said, that after that cruise she's finished with P&O.

 

 

[Selbourne]

I am deeply saddened to read that two of our most valued and trusted posters @Megabear2 and @TigerB have now either had, or booked, their final cruises with P&O, but I fully understand and respect their decisions. 
 

In our case, we only have one future cruise booked at present and that’s with Cunard. We are still happy to cruise with P&O (some ships excepted) but my wife’s deteriorating mobility means that we simply cannot entertain booking years in advance.
 

Sadly, this new policy is likely to mean that our chances of cruising in the future are now much diminished. More folk who don’t need a fully adapted cabin will be forced to book one, when they could easily have been accommodated in a partially accessible cabin, meaning that those of us who absolutely have to have one, and simply cannot cruise without all the adaptations, will now have an almost impossible task in securing one.
 

I sincerely hope that I am wrong, and will certainly keep trying, but they will become increasingly difficult to secure, especially for those of us unable to book at launch. Very sad. 

[Cathygh]

42 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

No it's not nosey but I'll write about the reasons when I sum up our just finished cruise. Just not happy with paying a larger sum (for us) for something we feel has deteriorated .

Thank you. I think that Aurora and Arcadia are over priced for what they deliver, especially when prices can be similar to other lines who are delivering a better product. IMHO. 

[terrierjohn]

9 hours ago, AchileLauro said:

A rollator is no substitute for an evacuation chair.

Providing your own evacuation chair would not be a solution as you need at least two trained able bodied persons to safely operate even the most basic of evacuate chairs on a staircase.

I was interested to notice that my new wheelchairs user guide gives detailed operating instructions about how to safely use it on stairs, it does require two people though.

So perhaps the absence of an evacuation chair should not prevent wheelchair users from sailing, as long as there are adequate crew, and a lightweight wheelchair.

[cruising.mark.uk]

1 hour ago, terrierjohn said:

I was interested to notice that my new wheelchairs user guide gives detailed operating instructions about how to safely use it on stairs, it does require two people though.

So perhaps the absence of an evacuation chair should not prevent wheelchair users from sailing, as long as there are adequate crew, and a lightweight wheelchair.

Although they might say it is availability of evacuation chairs that is the problem, I suspect that the real issue is availability of crew to assign to the task of providing assistance.  If, for example, there are only 50 crew available for the task, then they can only assist 25 passengers, irrespective of whether those passengers are in evacuation chairs or a lightweight wheelchair.  So, the convenient way to ensure they don't exceed the level of assistance they are able to provide is to allocate an evacuation chair to everyone who requires assistance of this type and use that as the limiting factor.

[AchileLauro]

That's exactly what I suspect also.

 

[david63]

I suspect that the number of evac chairs either is, or soon will be, equal to the number of accessible cabins and it would not surprise me if that number was reduced during a refit.

 

When are P&O/Carnival going to do something similar about buggies that clutter corridors and other thoroughfares?

[UKCruiser999]

6 hours ago, Selbourne said:

I’m inclined to agree. P&O accepted the booking under the conditions that applied at the time. They have subsequently changed the rules, so I would have thought have breached the contract. On that basis, they should surely refund the passenger in full? I can’t see why on earth insurers should bear the cost. 

 

Cruise companies (not just P&O) seem to be a law unto themselves. I’ve never got my head around the missed ports situation. I know of no other holiday where you can be sold a holiday to X place, never get there, and effectively be told “tough. Speak to your insurers”. The amazing thing is that us Brits just tend to accept these things and shrug our shoulders which, of course, allows them to get away with it.
 

This new scenario is much more serious though and I suspect that it will only be a matter of time until they cancel the cruise of someone who has the drive, determination and (potentially) funds to take them on legally over this. In the meantime, the bad PR will continue. Even if we accept that the new rule makes sense (and I’m not sure that I do), nobody seems to be in disagreement with the fact that this whole business has been handled appallingly. Carnival U.K. must have very weak leadership to allow all this bad press to continue. Someone needs to get a grip of this. 

 

have a read of your booking contract. A company isn't going to do anything that is against their own terms and conditions are they.

[Selbourne]

18 minutes ago, UKCruiser999 said:

 

have a read of your booking contract. A company isn't going to do anything that is against their own terms and conditions are they.

You clearly have a lot more faith in P&O than I do 😂. T’s and Cs don’t trump UK law. There are a few of us on this forum who have taken P&O to task over effectively breaching the contract that we entered into with them and have received a successful outcome. P&O readily dish out ‘non-disclosure agreements’ in these situations in an attempt to prevent adverse PR. Well, they used to. They don’t seem bothered about bad PR these days. 

[Ardennais]

3 hours ago, david63 said:

I suspect that the number of evac chairs either is, or soon will be, equal to the number of accessible cabins and it would not surprise me if that number was reduced during a refit.

 

When are P&O/Carnival going to do something similar about buggies that clutter corridors and other thoroughfares?

I don’t think I’ve seen many buggies or scooters in corridors. Regardless, you can easily carry infants should the need arise. 

[Bill Y]

20 hours ago, Selbourne said:

Carnival U.K. must have very weak leadership to allow all this bad press to continue. Someone needs to get a grip of this.

You have probably hit the nail on the head. As probably someone at P&O having seen videos of electric bike and scooter fires and thought blimey electric wheelchairs and mobility scooters probably have even larger capacity batteries so must flag this as a safety concern, storing these overnight and charging them in cabins.  Once this has been raised it cannot be unsaid and it would rocket through the organisation and people must be seen to act as it’s elf & safety, so in their wisdom it was decided reasonable precautions must be seen to be taken and it appears to restrict these to certain cabins was the way forward.

 

We are now in the realms mentioned in post #122 where any statement risks being perceived in the media as admission that the ships were unsafe etc, While it might appear to be sensible to introduce these enhanced safety precautions starting on all new bookings, people will be screaming elf & safety, a risk has been identified, if we now know about it and if anything now happens corporate manslaughter etc. You can imagine all the arguing in and between the safety, legal and PR departments with high level decisions being required from above, So did the executive feel under attack and withdraw to their panic room/golf club? 

 

I am not a battery or fire expert but there has been a lot of bad publicity regarding lithium batteries used on scooters (two wheeled) and bikes, often aspersions have been cast upon the provenance of the batteries and chargers. I would have thought that people using electric mobility devices on cruises would not be sourcing cheap dubious spares, and after all you don’t hear of electric cars busting into flames, although someone will probably say otherwise. Compared to mobility devices cars could be considered a mobile bomb yet there are no restrictions as to where they can be used, stored or recharged. So the pantomime at Carnival towers seems a master class of how to shoot oneself in the foot, a Ratner moment perhaps? And this calls for tough executive decisions to be made.

 

I really feel sorry for those with disabilities who enjoy cruising as a practical way to have a holiday that now are having their cruises cancelled on the altar of elf & safety and will now find it increasingly difficult to make a booking.

Edited Saturday at 10:06 AM by Bill Y

[AchileLauro]

1 hour ago, Bill Y said:

 

 

 

 

I am not a battery or fire expert but there has been a lot of bad publicity regarding lithium batteries used on scooters (two wheeled) and bikes, often aspersions have been cast upon the provenance of the batteries and chargers. I would have thought that people using electric mobility devices on cruises would not be sourcing cheap dubious spares, and after all you don’t hear of electric cars busting into flames, although someone will probably say otherwise. Compared to mobility devices cars could be considered a mobile bomb yet there are no restrictions as to where they can be used, stored or recharged. So the pantomime at Carnival towers seems a master class of how to shoot oneself in the foot, a Ratner moment perhaps? And this calls for tough executive decisions to be made.

 

 

 Bill I am in total agreement with you when you said -

"I really feel sorry for those with disabilities who enjoy cruising as a practical way to have a holiday that now are having their cruises cancelled  and will now find it increasingly difficult to make a booking."

 

Unfortunately you are quite mistaken when you say that electric cars don't burst into flames, they most certainly do, and they can and do present very serious problem to fire services both in the U.K. and abroard when they do.

You are also mistaken when you say that there are no restrictions on where they can be stored or charged, there most certainly are.

 

The problem is that cruise ships are extremely complex and rely upon some quite ingenious fire engineered solutions to achieve a satisfactory standard of fire safety, especially with regard to maintaining a satisfactory standard of fire compartmentation and ventilation/smoke control in order to ensure useable escape routes and access for firefighting.

Introducing the same restrictions on charging and storage of electric wheelchairs and mobility scooters on cruise ships as you have in land based structures would be extremely difficult and overall prohibitively expensive. Therefore the only alternative is to control the risk that they potentially pose. 

I am sure that at some time in the future we will see naval architects and fire engineers come up with a satisfactory design solution to the potential problems associated with powered wheelchairs and mobility scooters. However, don't be surprised if it comes at a cost due to specialised charging and storage areas perhaps contained within disabled cabins. 

[Bill Y]

4 hours ago, AchileLauro said:

Unfortunately you are quite mistaken when you say that electric cars don't burst into flames, they most certainly do, and they can and do present very serious problem to fire services both in the U.K. and abroard when they do.

Thanks for enlightening me. I was aware of the media speculation about the Luton airport fire the source of which was not an electric vehicle, but can’t recall any disasters reported involving them unlike the frequent coverage on south east media regarding fires involving electric bikes and scooters.

4 hours ago, AchileLauro said:

You are also mistaken when you say that there are no restrictions on where they can be stored or charged, there most certainly are.

I have not looking into buying electric cars but assumed that they could be garaged/stored anywhere even in multi story and underground car parks and recharged anywhere subject to a power source being available. Maybe these restriction need to be more widely promulgated?

 

I had not intended to go off topic but based on what people reported to be the difference between partially accessible and accessible cabins where they are allowed to the detriment of people who need them did P&O need to be so pedantic? I attempted to illustrate devices with far larger batteries appeared not to pose such a risk, although I concede that cars are not carried on cruise ships. Interestingly electric vehicles do not appear to be subject to restrictions on “Le Shuttle” unlike gas powered ones.

[GOLDSURFER]

From information received it’s more to do with EVACUATION CHAIRS they have only a few available ( trying to find out how many). Have tried to book ARCADIA for April 20th 2025 all full. So will have to look for different cruise company for Partially adapted cabins. Will look for cruises in 2026.

Derek.