Sun Princess and missed port Montenegro

[macaws2]

23 hours ago, tcigirl said:

Very disappointing!  One of the reasons we picked this cruise..  😡

It's official, just received an email this morning letting us know that bar has officially replaced kotor, now waiting for our refund from the excursion we booked for kotor

[phuac]

On the bright side... can allocate excursion budgets to other ports.

Also if you maximized princess plus/premier on the sea day prior.. you've got an extra day to recover 🙂

[tcigirl]

3 hours ago, phuac said:

On the bright side... can allocate excursion budgets to other ports.

Also if you maximized princess plus/premier on the sea day prior.. you've got an extra day to recover 🙂

I found an interesting tour on Viator.  Never been there so didn’t want to miss it. Going with the flow. 

On 6/14/2024 at 2:48 PM, macaws2 said:

Totally agree,,,on the 21 day starting 8/10 and it still shows the port of kotor but main website dies reflect the bar change so it'll be interesting to see how long it takes them to officially contact the passengers of the change and to have no port excursions planned to also not a good sign.

Exactly and I am not finding any tours leaving from there unless they are very long. Even asked the company I had booked a tour with in Kotor.  Princess knew better.  4000 passengers can’t flood the small port all at once.  That will be a nightmare for everyone.  Locals and passengers alike.

[macaws2]

I also looked on viator and trip advisor which both showed a few tours but not too many, we're traveling with another couple and since we booked the original kotor tour through princess, waiting to see when will they refund that and then see what they may offer before booking with a private company for now.

[KimberlyC]

Bar was just confirmed for the final September 7th sailing. There are NO excursions listed yet. Last week there were 30 excursions for Kotor. 
 

My group of 6 will be driving to Kotor killing nearly 4 hours to commute but I have no desire to see Stari Bar. 😔

[JimmyVWine]

34 minutes ago, tcigirl said:

4000 passengers can’t flood the small port all at once.  That will be a nightmare for everyone.  Locals and passengers alike.

How is 3,560 OK but 4,000 is a nightmare?  I’ve been to Kotor on Regal with 2 other ships in port (although one was a smaller Seaborne ship) which meant that there were way more than 4,000 people in town on those days. Seems as if something else is happening. Kotor is still listed on Sun Princess itineraries all the way out to 2026 which suggests that they still want to make this work. The draught of the ship is only a foot more than Regal so physical size shouldn’t be an issue. There is a reason here that we just aren’t being told and ship size and passenger load can’t be it. 

[tcigirl]

10 minutes ago, JimmyVWine said:

How is 3,560 OK but 4,000 is a nightmare?  I’ve been to Kotor on Regal with 2 other ships in port (although one was a smaller Seaborne ship) which meant that there were way more than 4,000 people in town on those days. Seems as if something else is happening. Kotor is still listed on Sun Princess itineraries all the way out to 2026 which suggests that they still want to make this work. The draught of the ship is only a foot more than Regal so physical size shouldn’t be an issue. There is a reason here that we just aren’t being told and ship size and passenger load can’t be it. 

It may show Kotor but we were sent a notice that we will now the Sun Princess will be  at the port of Bar which is a tiny town.  I had been hearing about the change for awhile now but was hoping it wasn’t true as this is our first time in Montenegro.  Apparently this is not the first time they have changed the port at the last minute.  I was able to find a tour but it was slim pickings.  I would have rather have gone into Kotor as it is supposed to be a beautiful area. But with cruising we go with the flow.  Literally!

[EDVM96]

48 minutes ago, JimmyVWine said:

The draught of the ship is only a foot more than Regal so physical size shouldn’t be an issue. There is a reason here that we just aren’t being told and ship size and passenger load can’t be it. 

Draught is not the problem for cruise ships.
Look at length and height -> wind attack surface.

And width -> the narrow channel.

And the combination of all.

Princess stopped cruising to Akaroa NZ for that very reason, even with Grand Class ships.

Edited June 16 by EDVM96

[tcigirl]

1 hour ago, KimberlyC said:

Bar was just confirmed for the final September 7th sailing. There are NO excursions listed yet. Last week there were 30 excursions for Kotor. 
 

My group of 6 will be driving to Kotor killing nearly 4 hours to commute but I have no desire to see Stari Bar. 😔

I would have preferred Kotor but really don’t want to spend that much time driving.  So ended up choosing the Skadar Lake and Ulcinj area.  🤷‍♀️

[JimmyVWine]

12 hours ago, EDVM96 said:

Draught is not the problem for cruise ships.
Look at length and height -> wind attack surface.

And width -> the narrow channel.

And the combination of all.

But the ship stays in the bay. It is marginally longer than Regal (50 feet).  Not enough to matter. And while it has 10 meters more width, it doesn’t come close enough to land for that to matter. If the decision has been made that the ship simply cannot go to that port, why would they include it in itineraries all the way out to September of 2026?  No one is that dense. And they can’t possibly think that they can fool people past final payment date 50 times in a row or however many itineraries show that port. Do they think that people won’t catch on?

 

I wonder if this is a negotiation issue involving the tenders. As you know, in Kotor Princess cannot use its own vessels for tendering. It has to hire the local fleet. Maybe the higher passenger load caused the port authority in Kotor to raise the fee and Princess refuses to pay it, and there is continued hope that the port will blink and back down. And if this negotiation is ongoing, there is hope for each itinerary that the issue may be resolved in time for the next scheduled cruise. And when that doesn’t happen, another cancellation occurs.
 

Another possibility is that Princess is not canceling Kotor and instead Kotor is canceling Princess due to passenger load concerns and negotiations between the two sides continue with hopes that this can be resolved. 
 

Frankly, both of these make more logical sense than: “We built a ship that is too big to go to Kotor but we are going to keep it on all the itineraries indefinitely and hope that no one notices that we always cancel.”

Edited June 16 by JimmyVWine

[TRLD]

1 hour ago, JimmyVWine said:

But the ship stays in the bay. It is marginally longer than Regal (50 feet).  Not enough to matter. And while it has 10 meters more width, it doesn’t come close enough to land for that to matter. If the decision has been made that the ship simply cannot go to that port, why would they include it in itineraries all the way out to September of 2026?  No one is that dense. And they can’t possibly think that they can fool people past final payment date 50 times in a row or however many itineraries show that port. Do they think that people won’t catch on?

 

I wonder if this is a negotiation issue involving the tenders. As you know, in Kotor Princess cannot use its own vessels for tendering. It has to hire the local fleet. Maybe the higher passenger load caused the port authority in Kotor to raise the fee and Princess refuses to pay it, and there is continued hope that the port will blink and back down. And if this negotiation is ongoing, there is hope for each itinerary that the issue may be resolved in time for the next scheduled cruise. And when that doesn’t happen, another cancellation occurs.
 

Another possibility is that Princess is not canceling Kotor and instead Kotor is canceling Princess due to passenger load concerns and negotiations between the two sides continue with hopes that this can be resolved. 
 

Frankly, both of these make more logical sense than: “We built a ship that is too big to go to Kotor but we are going to keep it on all the itineraries indefinitely and hope that no one notices that we always cancel.”

Princess say originally that the issue was due to an issue with tendering there. I do not recall the exact language but if recall something about technical restrictions.

[phuac]

5 hours ago, TRLD said:

Princess say originally that the issue was due to an issue with tendering there. I do not recall the exact language but if recall something about technical restrictions.

 

Hard to find folks in this thread that would believe what Princess says.
Since the Port Agent already knew that Princess was going to sail to Bar instead of Kotor, my hunch is that it has less to do with the ship, but overall port logistics in that area.  The port agent probably had other negotiations going on.

Example, if you are Montenegro, you would negotiate for ships to go to other ports besides Kotor to "spread" tourism in the area.  All this is obviously speculation, but so far hearing from agencies other than Princess leads to more realistic scenarios.  Listening to Princess all this time up to this week would make you believe that travelers are still going to Kotor this summer.

[TRLD]

11 minutes ago, phuac said:

 

Hard to find folks in this thread that would believe what Princess says.
Since the Port Agent already knew that Princess was going to sail to Bar instead of Kotor, my hunch is that it has less to do with the ship, but overall port logistics in that area.  The port agent probably had other negotiations going on.

Example, if you are Montenegro, you would negotiate for ships to go to other ports besides Kotor to "spread" tourism in the area.  All this is obviously speculation, but so far hearing from agencies other than Princess leads to more realistic scenarios.  Listening to Princess all this time up to this week would make you believe that travelers are still going to Kotor this summer.

I suspect there is some issue where their is a disagreement between the local tenders and Princess. It could be a number of tenders, how they interface with the ship, or any number of issues.  Exactly what we do not know.

 

Until you get in the window of 60 to 90 days out on any cruise line, when the itineraries go through final confirmation and get actual port clearances nothing is certain. 

 

There can be law changes (Venice, Bora Bore, Key West), wars (Israel, Egypt) port construction (Lahiana), port traffic change (Dublin), etc.

 

In all of these cases anyone following the industry knew that those itineraries would change. Same with Kotor and Santorini. The issue with Santorini appears to be resolved. So now one can assume that the ship will make that port.

 

As far as Kotor, until the ship actually makes it there the assumption should be that it will not.

 

The itineraries will get changed during the final itinerary verification phase. Until that step, they will, just like the other cases above stay as they were initially published.

 

Usually the only time they will be changed earlier is if there is an event such as a ship getting moved or some other similar event.

 

Just the way the industry operates. 

 

[phuac]

All I'm saying is that it is ironic you are quoting Princess saying it's a tendering issue when Princess hasn't really stated the obvious about other things.  It's probably what Princess doesn't say that is more realistic.

[TRLD]

2 hours ago, phuac said:

All I'm saying is that it is ironic you are quoting Princess saying it's a tendering issue when Princess hasn't really stated the obvious about other things.  It's probably what Princess doesn't say that is more realistic.

It is the one statement that the company has stated with a reason.

 

If one follows how their and other cruise line systems work when it comes to itineraries they have stated it.

 

Cruise lines have hundreds of itineraries. They do not have a system looking at every itinerary, looking at every possible problem. If they did they would be chaging itineraries almost continuously. A lot of times changing them changing them back in many cases.

 

Instead they have a process where an itinerary is set based upon the information they have. They expect to run that itinerary. They will revisit the itinerary at a set timeframe. Usually 60 to 90 days out. at that time they revisit the itineraries, get final confirmation from ports, and make the changes that are necessary.

 

In the mean time work continues to resolve any issues that occur. 

 

There was one incident where there was a disagreement between NCL and the tender services at Belieze City. They stopped all calls there until they developed their own tender capability.

 

Again Princess has made a statement. Outside of that statement people have made a lot of guesses.  In the future it will either be resolved or it will not. If there is no expectation of future resolution then Kotor will not be in future schedules when they are released for 26/27.

 

If it is there in the new future schedules then it is a problem that they expect to resolve at some point. If it is not there then the problem is not one they expect to fix.

 

In the meantime one should assume that the schedule will change until it doesn't and that it will show up at the 60 to 90 day finalization check time frame.

[cr2000]

Does it really matter the reason? The point here is Princess knew months ago that they were never going to get the ship into Kotor, yet left it on itineraries and continued to market and sell cruises on the premise it would be a port stop - clearly placing profit ahead of customer experiences/satisfaction. And, fwiw, it's not a tendering issue (that's an excuse). The ship is physically too large for the port, something which they should have known a year ago.

[macaws2]

Excursions posted on princess website for Bar,,, not really much as far as guided tours in bar so guess going to have to look at other sources for available excursions of the area,interesting that the first available excursion through princess goes to kotor 🤔,, 

[cruisinsince75]

15 hours ago, TRLD said:

In the future it will either be resolved or it will not. If there is no expectation of future resolution then Kotor will not be in future schedules when they are released for 26/27.

They must figure that it will be resolved.  They have Kotor still listed for 2025 and 2026.  

[TRLD]

3 hours ago, cruisinsince75 said:

They must figure that it will be resolved.  They have Kotor still listed for 2025 and 2026.  

Not necessarily. Did any of those itineraries come out after the problem started this Spring. The 2025 listing's would have been out before. Not sure when they published the 2026 ones.

[TRLD]

7 hours ago, cr2000 said:

Does it really matter the reason? The point here is Princess knew months ago that they were never going to get the ship into Kotor, yet left it on itineraries and continued to market and sell cruises on the premise it would be a port stop - clearly placing profit ahead of customer experiences/satisfaction. And, fwiw, it's not a tendering issue (that's an excuse). The ship is physically too large for the port, something which they should have known a year ago.

Did they? Who specifically?  They certainly for the itineraries they have checked those within 60 to 90 days.

 

Some locals in Kotor might know if they are involved in whatever the problem is and they are part of the solution.

 

On the Princess side the people involved in working the problem might know, but most likely they are not involved in the itineraries.

 

Same as with the other cruise lines, people do very specific job following a specific process.

 

After all a miracle might happen.  Laws might change back, a state might over ride a city, etc.

 

They change when it is an absolutely thing at the time in the process when they do such confirmations.

 

Most ports are as scheduled, rarely does it result in changes, but sometimes it does.

 

 

Edited June 17 by TRLD

[JimmyVWine]

8 hours ago, cr2000 said:

Does it really matter the reason? The point here is Princess knew months ago that they were never going to get the ship into Kotor

This has never been established.  If the problem is one that is currently being negotiated, then they really don't know day to day or week to week when it will be resolved.  It's more akin to selling tickets to watch the launch of a SpaceX liftoff in person, only to have the launch scrapped the morning of.  One could kick the dirt and curse the air that SpaceX knew months ago that the rocket wasn't going to go on that date but sold tickets anyway.  But did it?  Sure, cancelling Kotor isn't nearly as last-minute as cancelling a liftoff.  But to say that Princess knew a year ago that it was never going to go to Kotor, or to say that today Princess knows that it isn't going to Kotor in 2026 is not only speculative, it is unrealistic.  What we know is that Princess knows that it is not going to Kotor in the next 60 days.  That's about it.  Princess is likely trying to make this work out and the impasse could break at any moment.  We just don't know.  

[cr2000]

22 minutes ago, JimmyVWine said:

This has never been established.  If the problem is one that is currently being negotiated, then they really don't know day to day or week to week when it will be resolved.  It's more akin to selling tickets to watch the launch of a SpaceX liftoff in person, only to have the launch scrapped the morning of.  One could kick the dirt and curse the air that SpaceX knew months ago that the rocket wasn't going to go on that date but sold tickets anyway.  But did it?  Sure, cancelling Kotor isn't nearly as last-minute as cancelling a liftoff.  But to say that Princess knew a year ago that it was never going to go to Kotor, or to say that today Princess knows that it isn't going to Kotor in 2026 is not only speculative, it is unrealistic.  What we know is that Princess knows that it is not going to Kotor in the next 60 days.  That's about it.  Princess is likely trying to make this work out and the impasse could break at any moment.  We just don't know.  

 

The port folks in Bar and Kotor knew this 3 months ago and yet itineraries seem to only change AFTER final payment is due. You'll see Kotor dropped incrementally for 2026 as well.

[EDVM96]

"One of the key projects foreseen in that plan is the construction of a mooring pylon in the sea, which will allow all ships to come to the port of Kotor and safely moor there, without restrictions due to the size or draft of the ship."

 

"It is planned to build a so-called mooring pylon-dolphin consisting of a concrete platform measuring 80x8x4 meters, supported on four steel pylons driven into the seabed. In addition, at position number 2 of the current anchorage of the port, in the water area in front of Dobrota, two large mooring buoys will be placed to which cruisers will be tied, instead of anchoring here as is the case so far."

 

"The authors of these solutions believe that it will significantly improve the level of safety of ships in the Port of Kotor, because even the largest cruisers will be able to dock next to the operational shore of Luža and rest their sterns on the pylon, i.e. that cruisers tied to buoys will not be exposed to the risk of so-called anchor plowing and uncontrolled drifting towards the coast in case of unfavorable weather conditions."
 

 

Translated article from News Media Group Montenegro, November 2023:

https://en.vijesti.me/news/society/680180/association-of-sea-captains-pylon-and-buoys-would-endanger-the-safety-of-navigation

 

 

According to this, restrictions do exist due to the size or draft of the ship in Kotor bay. And maybe the size of the Sun just falls under these restricitons.

 

Edited June 17 by EDVM96

[JimmyVWine]

8 minutes ago, cr2000 said:

The port folks in Bar and Kotor knew this 3 months ago

Final payment is due 90 days out.  If the port folks in Kotor are making the final decision as to whether the ship can make it into port, and they are making that call 90 days in advance, then this coincides with final payment and is a coincidence and not a conspiracy. The port folks in Kotor could not care one whit about Princess' payment schedule.  Now, if you are telling us that PRINCESS is the one making the decision, and that they are doing so 120 days out, and they are withholding that information until 89 days before each cruise, then you would have a scoop.  But there is simply no evidence of that.  

Edited June 17 by JimmyVWine

[cr2000]

Just now, JimmyVWine said:

Final payment is due 90 days out.  If the port folks in Kotor are making the final decision as to whether the ship can make it into port, and they are making that call 90 days in advance, then this coincides with final payment and is a coincidence and not a conspiracy. The port folks in Kotor could not care one whit Princess' payment schedule.  Now, if you are telling us that PRINCESS is the one making the decision, and that they are doing so 120 days out, and they are withholding that information until 89 days before each cruise, then you would have a scoop.  But there is simply no evidence of that.  

See post above about ship sizes and mooring, released in 2023. This issue appears well understood, and yet Princess continues to carry Kotor as port stop. Let's be real, Bar is not a port you advertise to secure customer bookings...