sneaky way of getting an upgrade

[Randyk47]

While I won't say the OP's friend shouldn't book a handicap cabin in hopes of getting upgraded I'd not do it. I guess I'm worried that somebody, somewhere who really requires such accommodations would look on the Internet or have their TA look at the inventory and the cabin wouldn't show and that would cause them to not book that particular cruise. Not all folks or TA's are going to press the issue and I'd hate to think I caused somebody who needed the cabin's special features not to be able to book the cruise.

[Oceanwench]

[quote name='kryos']But that's just the point. He's not "stealing" it. He probably tells them he's not handicapped when he books, and would be willing to give it up if a handicapped passenger needs it. And, that's precisely how he gets his upgrade.

I think it's a great idea myself. But, I can't understand how this strategy would ALWAYS result in an upgrade, even if the room were needed by another handicapped passenger. If he was booked in a handicapped inside cabin, wouldn't they just move him to a regular inside cabin? Where would the upgrade necessarily come in at?

It would seem to me that this strategy COULD result in an upgrade ... maybe would give one a BETTER chance at an upgrade ... but wouldn't hardly GUARANTEE an upgrade.

Or ... am I missing something?

Blue skies ...

--rita[/QUOTE]

IF the person told the cruise line he was not handicapped, then he would not be given the cabin.
If he said nothing -- just asked to book an HC cabin -- that is a lie of omission.

One point you are missing: Once an HC cabin is booked -- REGARDLESS of who books it -- it is out of the inventory.
If DH, who is in a wheelchair, cannot walk and cannot stay in a standard cabin, calls HAL to book a cruise, and all the HC cabins are taken, then he can't book the cruise.
No one says, "We'll check to see if those cabins are occupied by HC or AB people."

Imagine, if you can, being in a cabin in which you cannot access the bathroom. It would make for a long week, no?
Well, there are 28 cabins [just got the # from a CC story] that are accessible to a HC person on a Vista ship.
And 900-something that are not.
So once those 28 cabins are booked -- by HC or AB people -- someone like my husband is not able to cruise that week.

Why should an able-bodied person be able to take one of a handful of rooms away from another person who needs it?
The AB person has hundreds of rooms available to him/her on any given cruise.

[Oceanwench]

[quote name='Sunshine91'][FONT=Book Antiqua][SIZE=3]Why get your knickers in a twist over the OP starting this thread? SHE's not the one booking the HC cabin when she doesn't need it. Her FRIEND is. The thread has sparked an interesting, informative discussion. Seems to me that it's hit or miss to whether or not HAL requests documentation supporting the need for the HC cabin. It would be nice if it were standardized, but I guess that's the limitations of multiple ways to book.[/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

You call it getting my knickers in a twist. I called it advocacy for the rights of the disabled.
When a person in your family becomes disabled [or is born with a disability], you become an advocate. You fight for his/her rights. You realize what a struggle life can be, and how often a disabled person's rights are ignored.
You are thankful for the ADA.
And you try to educate ignorant people in the hopes that somehow you can make the world a little bit better.

As I said, it can happen to anyone. Even a broken leg can land someone in a wheelchair and open their eyes to the difficulties of everyday life when your mobility is severely limited.


[QUOTE][FONT=Book Antiqua][SIZE=3]I don't think HAL's going to give out personal and/or medical information about ANY passenger, nor would I want them to. It's called privacy. Perhaps the HAL rep just gave a standard response to your inquiry.[/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

We did not want personal information, Susan. DH was just testing the system. AB people who book HC cabins claim that they have an agreement with the cruise line that they will move if a HC person needs the cabin. That is not true. Spend some time on the disabled boards here on CC and you will learn a lot.
The person bragging on CC about booking an HC room said she was going to give it up if an HC person needed it.
But her room was not "red flagged." Her room was off inventory.

[QUOTE][FONT=Book Antiqua][SIZE=3]To those urging the OP to stop calling this man her friend - can you honestly say that in your own circle there isn't a single ethically-challenged individual? Do you drop that person for an indiscretion? Are we all so perfect and judgemental?[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Book Antiqua][SIZE=3]I don't agree with his actions & would never do it. I'd certainly encourage him not to book that cabin. But that doesn't mean he wouldn't be my [I]friend[/I].[/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

Are you really being judgmental if you choose your friends wisely?
There are friends and there are acquaintances, Susan. I may know someone who is ethically challenged ... and I would not choose that person to be my friend.
I have had friends in the past who have bragged about doing something I thought unethical ... and I learned not to trust that person. Trust is a basis of friendship, so I would say that person passed from being a friend to being merely an acquaintance.

[timbo89]

Ummm - just a thought.....

If HAL (who created the cabins ostensibly for their HC clients in the first place) would require an affirmation at time of booking that the passenger is indeed HC and needs that type of room, wouldn't this solve the problem? For example, do not most HC folks have medical forms they have to submit to the state to get HC parking plates/stickers? They could require submission of these, for instance.

If, indeed, some non-HC person books a GTY in that category, and there are no cabins available at sailing in that category other than HC, then the non-HC person would be allowed to occupy.

I, for one, feel very guilty if I get assigned to an HC room at a hotel - I am fearful that I might be taking something from someone who truly needs it. I have never been assigned an HC stateroom on a cruise.

It would seem to me that, if HAL would simply oversee this process that things would be fine. Perhaps I'm too dumb or simple-minded, but this seems to be where the issue really lies.

[Oceanwench]

This is what happens when DH [who is HC] books a cabin: He calls our TA to get pricing, etc. on a particular cruise. She checks to see if there is an HC cabin available. If so, he books it.

HAL sends him a form to fill out to describe any special needs he has and asks him to list the equipment [scooter, wheelchair, oxygen, guide dog] he'll be bringing on board.
At no time has he been asked for a doctor's note or for a description of his illness.

To get a HC parking placard he did need to provide documentation from a doctor. He also needed such documentation to be excused from jury duty!

DH would not be opposed to providing documentation of his illness to the cruise line, if it were required. Some people in the disability community, however, do feel it is an invasion of their privacy to be asked by a cruise line for such information.

For the person who asked about the beds in an HC cabin: We have been in a VA and an SS. Both had twin beds that could be moved together or kept separate.
The VA did not have a bathtub.
The SS has a single sink -- not a double, as the standard SS cabins have. It did have a tub, but I do not think it was a whirlpool type. The bathroom was configured differently than those in standard SS cabins.

[etoile]

I'm actually not 100% certain it's legal for a company to ask for proof of disability - do you know more about this, Oceanwench? I have a friend who used to work for the ADA Helpline and she was never allowed to ask about the caller's actual disability.

[boomerSexyK]

The cruiselines seems to have a hit or miss way of dealing with HC cabins. Our last cruise was on Celebrity and they did not require any form to verify my use of an HC cabin. This year we are travelling on the Zuiderdam and as of yet have not been requested for any type of confirmation of my disability. I have a noticed a few disabled pax have stated that they had to fill out some kind of form, but my experience seems to indicate it not standard across the various cruiselines or even within a particular cruiseline.

[RevNeal]

[QUOTE]While all turned out well in your situation, it was because of your thoughtfulness, not because HAL had any apparent concern for the handicapped pax.[/QUOTE]

What should have happened was that the HC passenger who booked the F-category outside cabin should have been informed that there were HC cabins available and given the option to switch BEFORE the ROS Guarantees were assigned. That was HAL's fumble (I suppose). I will grant HAL marks, however, for realizing the situation and dealing with it properly when I brought it to their attention. But I shouldn't have had to do so ... and that's your point.

I would never knowingly book an HC cabin for myself unless I truly needed one.

[airlink diva]

I talked to my friend about ten minutes ago. I asked him if he viewed the comments concerning his way of getting an upgrade. Needless to say he was quite shocked by the replys. He wasn't aware that people upset by this. Now I don't know if he will have a change of heart and try to change rooms. However, if he don't the best advice is to keep his room assigment on the down low. He did say one thing about everyone on this board, we are very passionate about HAL.

[carolcp]

I was trying to look to see what rooms were available for an upcoming cruise. When I went to book a room the HC rooms were automatically put in the cabin number when I chose "best available". Maybe that is how some people are getting them? Sure the room was huge but I didn't take it.

Carol

[kryos]

[quote name='Oceanwench']One point you are missing: Once an HC cabin is booked -- REGARDLESS of who books it -- it is out of the inventory.
If DH, who is in a wheelchair, cannot walk and cannot stay in a standard cabin, calls HAL to book a cruise, and all the HC cabins are taken, then he can't book the cruise.
No one says, "We'll check to see if those cabins are occupied by HC or AB people."
[/QUOTE]
Okay, now I better understand. Thanks. Believe me, I never request these cabins ... space is not that important to me ... and as I said in another post, the one time I got stuck in one of these cabins (inside guarantee), I did not find them to be all that much bigger than other inside cabins I've had onboard ship.

I hate to say it, but I really think that if a lot of people are doing this ... booking a handicapped cabin just to get more space ... then the cruise lines really should start requiring some type of documentation of disability before allowing someone to book them. Then ... if the ship is ready to sail in a few weeks, and there are handicapped cabins that have not been booked ... use them to fulfill the guarantees.

By requiring documentation, at least the cruise line would be reasonably assured that the people getting those handicapped cabins would be the ones truly needing them.

Blue skies ...

--rita

[Splinter]

Has this guy falsified DMV forms to get a handicapped parking placard too? Many do this, which is why you see so many people with placards who clearly have no disability. I am sure there are those who have no scruples who have no problem falsifying the documentation that some cruise lines (not all) require. There are selfish self-centered people everywhere.

With over 10% of our population having major disabilities, more cabins should be accessible. To have a ship with 900 cabins and have only 4-6 accessible cabins (very common) and often only in the more expensive categories is discriminatory. This was addressed in testimony last year for development of new ADA standards for cruise ships (still not published over a year later). Cruise lines all gave testimony about what a burden it was to them to accomodate PWD on their ships. There are even fewer cabins that are mobility accessible that will accomodate a 3rd or 4th passenger. Are people with disabilities not allowed to or seen as able to have a family or need a caregiver in addition to a spouse?

We often are unable to book cruises because we are told that all the accessible cabins are sold out. I know that when we do get onto a cruise, we often observe people leaving accessible cabins who clearly have no mobility limitations. HAL, Princess and other lines would just as soon that PWD don't cruise with them, but of course THEY are too polite to say this. Some lines such as Oceania do all they can to discourage disabled cruisers (by having only 4 inside accessible cabins on any of their ships).

[Grumpy1]

In all of the bashing of the OP's friend, there is one thing that everyone is ignoring: The person has NEVER, in four cruises (none on HAL), actually stayed in an HC cabin. He was ALWAYS moved to another cabin and presumably to free up the cabin for a person needing those accomodations. This could only happen if the cruiseline knew that he didn't need the cabin and was willing to move IF someone came along that needed the cabin.

Now, it would appear that this may not work on HAL if there is no proof required about handicap needs, as HAL would not know that he would be willing to move. Chances are, if he tried this on HAL, he would find himself in the cabin he booked, he would never do it again, and he would deserve the wrath of all of us for having deprived a deserving person of the needed accomodations. It appears that there is a different way of handling HC bookings on the line he has used before, in that they allow a "conditional" booking.

[Grumpy1]

[quote name='Splinter']
I know that when we do get onto a cruise, we often observe people leaving accessible cabins who clearly have no mobility limitations. HAL, Princess and other lines would just as soon that PWD don't cruise with them, but of course THEY are too polite to say this.[/quote]

Unless you have talked to those passengers and found out whether they requested the cabin or were assigned on a guarantee AND you also know that PWD's were denied booking, your statement is very unfair. As others have stated, they have been assigned those cabins but would have preferred other accomodations.

Comparing this situation to violating an HC parking space is also not being fair. The HC space is restricted by law because you could have a person show up and need that space at any time. there is little or no monetary loss to a business because the parking provisions are enforced. Cruiselines and hotels are different. The object is to sell every cabin (or room) on every date. There WILL be monetary losses if rooms are not sold. If there are not enough HC requests, the rooms will be offered to others. There is no obligation to leave accomodations empty on the assumption that someone will come along at the last minute that needs them.

[HeatherInFlorida]

I am so tired of people trying to "beat the system" and find ways to improve their own lot in life. They have handicapped cabins for a reason. They are there for the handicapped. Can't everyone just leave them alone and not try to "play" the cruiseline?

Should the cruiseline demand all sorts of proof that your handicapped? Maybe. But wouldn't it be nicer if they could just trust you won't book that cabin unless you are?

It's unfortunate enough when a person has difficulties that prevent them from using an ordinary cabin (with the much nicer beds I might add). Why make life any more difficult for them?

And the truth is a lot of times the TA's don't have any idea that the HC cabin was booked by someone who just wants to be upgraded. They don't check to see, or maybe even the cruiseline doesn't know, and so they simply turn away the person with the handicap.

Does anyone remember "[I]There but for the grace of God go I[/I]"? And shouldn't we all remember, too, that one day maybe we will?

[YYC F/A]

Grumpy - Excellent Post.

Perhaps 'Splinter' might have also been mad at us on our recent cruise on RCI where, as ABP's, we occupied an accessible Junior Suite.

However, we booked within 10 weeks of sailing, this was the only JS available and as it was within 10 weeks it was in general inventory, AND, RCI called us to ask if we actually needed an accessible cabin. We confirmed we did not and stated that we'd be happy to move to equivalent accommodations (same grade/higher) should someone require the accessible suite (in the end, no one did).

Flaming people or making judgements (whether it be on here, or on board ship) without knowing the full facts is compeletely unfair.

[Scrumpy]

This is a very emotional subject for people who are affected by access issues frequently. I'm sure I would lose patience. What is passionate advocacy for some may be interpreted as 'flaming' by others. I am sure that I would soon stop even attempting to be tactful if I were in their shoes.

I have to ask - how far in advance do you all think HC cabins should be released to general inventory? A month? Two months? I think somewhere between 4-6 weeks is reasonable, but then we book cruises at the last minute, so our planning may be different than the way others do it.

[blue whale]

My sister always books a handicapped cabin and uses her own wheelchair for boarding and disembarking. In the past, she has sent to our travel agent a letter from her doctor confirming her handicapped status. On our last cruise, she was offered an upgrade to a suite, but one located in the very front of the ship, which she turned down because she knew she could not navigate in it if the ship were rocking. We always assumed that the doctor's letter was required. Celebrity requires a doctor's note confirming handicap status; so does NCL. My sister had to supply such a note.

[caviargal]

This is just bad karma all the way around. Sorry, but I find it totally selfish and manipulative to "work" the system in this way.

I hope his scheming does not work with HAL.

[Grumpy1]

Ideally, they would never be released to general inventory, they would always be at the very end of the inventory list, so that they would be sold only to PWD's first and then to others when all other cabins were sold. After all remaining cabins are sold, any remaining HC cabins should be available on a first come first serve basis, whether that is a day or many months before sailing.

I know there are some that will say that those cabins should be held for PWD's right up to the end, but my reasoning is that doing so could deprive the AB of a cabin months ahead of time so that a PWD could possibly book at the last minute. That, IMO, would be giving advantage to the PWD, not just levelling the playing field.

[westcoast1330]

Slightly off topic. A friend of mine drives a para-van and some inconsiderate person was parked in the HC parking spot. She parked the van right behind the car, blocking it in. The driver came running out saying "I'll only be a minute" to which my friend said no, you will wait for me now and proceeded to take her time taking 6 or 8 WC passengers off the van. I hope that person was late for their meeting.:D

[doodbug]

I have just booked my cruise for a Dec sailing onbard the Oosterdam. Although the screen does show that HC rooms like 6003 and 6004 are available, HAL would not allow non handicaps to book them. I am not sure when they release these cabins to the public. I was just curious because I thought of getting waitlisted for the HC rooms if noone needed them as I would have 2 infants and a large stroller to handle. Also, the quads tend to come in 2 upper and 2 lower beds. My babies need to be in cribs which take up space. In any case, I've just confirmed my reservation for another cabin and didn't request to be waitlisted.

[Sayyadina]

[quote name='westcoast1330']Slightly off topic. A friend of mine drives a para-van and some inconsiderate person was parked in the HC parking spot. She parked the van right behind the car, blocking it in. The driver came running out saying "I'll only be a minute" to which my friend said no, you will wait for me now and proceeded to take her time taking 6 or 8 WC passengers off the van. I hope that person was late for their meeting.:D[/quote]

I know it's not nice of me, but I just love stories like the one above.

I have never really been exposed to people with disabilities, either in school or in my family, etc, therefore I never learned a great deal about how to deal/act/help/etc with it. I hate being ignorant of such things. One of the boards I check on CC from time to time is the Disabled Cruise Travel board. I would recommend anyone to take a look. You might be surprised what you find. There was a thread I remember that talked about how to handle rude people that was very heartbreaking and enlightening, sometimes funny.

[tomc]

[b]Grumpy1, in post #63, said:[/b] [quote]He was ALWAYS moved to another cabin and presumably to free up the cabin for a person needing those accomodations. This could only happen if the cruiseline knew that he didn't need the cabin and was willing to move IF someone came along that needed the cabin.[/quote] Works in theory, but if the ship is full (which I assume is quite possible), he can't be moved. Or, he gets a giant upgrade for free, which is not right.

I was able to get a HC cabin on my TA's word that it would be good, but not strictly necessary. No paperwork needed. I was fine when moved to a regular inside on the second part of the b2b, altho it was a bit inconvenient.

[carol louise]

[quote]Has this guy falsified DMV forms to get a handicapped parking placard too? Many do this, which is why you see so many people with placards [COLOR=red]who clearly have no disability[/COLOR]. .[/quote]

A word to the wise about handicapped parking: while there certainly may be cheats who obtain parking placards fraudulently, please be aware that some disabilities, such as heart and lung diseases, are not immediately obvious, but nevertheless the sufferers cannot walk very far without great difficulty and are entitled to the placard.

To get back on-topic, I agree with HeatherInFlorida: if you aren't handicapped, you shouldn't even be [I]thinking[/I] about the handicap-accessible cabins when making your cruise plans.

Carol Louise