Tragedy on Mariner of the Seas

[chasetf]

Unless RCI sold him alcohol when he was clearly drunk.

With that logic, then I deduce all drunks are not responsible for any of their actions... This would include fights, assaults, driving drunk, ..????

 

So before you jump in, I agree RCI or anyone else, should not sell alcohol to a drunk... I just do not agree with taking the drunk off the hook. ;)

[Jaxsonbrownie]

Dena, I noticed you responded to the other thread on this topic. I did also. You seem to have this notion that RCI should be blamed for this unfortunate tragedy. I have to ask, if people can not be held accountable for their own actions(i.e. smuggling booze and over-indulging) & bad decisions, should we hold supermarkets and fast-food establishments accountable for serving the obvious 400 lb person that insists on over-eating?Do we say " sorry, you have obviously met your caloric intake for the year, we can not serve you" Where do we draw the line at being held accountable for our actions? Just wondering?:confused: Jaxson

[ldoc31]

Dena, I noticed you responded to the other thread on this topic. I did also. You seem to have this notion that RCI should be blamed for this unfortunate tragedy. I have to ask, if people can not be held accountable for their own actions(i.e. smuggling booze and over-indulging) & bad decisions, should we hold supermarkets and fast-food establishments accountable for serving the obvious 400 lb person that insists on over-eating?Do we say " sorry, you have obviously met your caloric intake for the year, we can not serve you" Where do we draw the line at being held accountable for our actions? Just wondering?:confused: Jaxson

 

I think there is a mjaor difference in selling alcohol to someone who is already drunk and selling food to an overweight person. At least that overweight person won't have impaired judgement. Seems to me a silly comparison.

[Jaxsonbrownie]

Maybe wasn't the best analogy, but close to the point I was making. Personal accountability for your actions. They have a video of this young person with his friends showing off all the smuggled booze they had with them. Who said anything about the cruiseline serving him too much? I was on the Mariner 3 wks ago, and a group of youmg people(my guess, 21-25 yrs old) came into the pub on the Royal Promenade, and appeared very intoxicated, and the bartender actually refused to serve them. He also showed them (& us) how they were red-flagged, on their computer system, as being " cut-off" ,too drunk to be served any where on the ship.They can do that, and they do do that. This young person obviously overserved himself, so blame his very bad judgement, and not the cruiseline. And who is to say who has impaired judgment? Drug addicts obviously keep buying drugs that they know may kill them, people who are drunk will keep pumping alcohol into their system, even if they know they are very intoxicated, and people who attend over-eaters anonymous, keep on eating, even though they know they shouldn't, all because all of these people know that they will feel good as long as they keep putting things into their bodies that will make them feel good, even though their judgement is " impaired", and they keep doing it. Personal accountability for your actions, the bottom line.

[ldoc31]

I believe the OP you referenced mentioned selling booze to someone who is already drunk. Personal responsibility is all well and good but if he had been served too much to drink from the ship then perhaps they should share in the responsibility.

[chasetf]

I believe the OP you referenced mentioned selling booze to someone who is already drunk. Personal responsibility is all well and good but if he had been served too much to drink from the ship then perhaps they should share in the responsibility.

Share to me seems to imply some forgiveness for the drunk. As I noted above, I believe whoever sells alcohol to an obvious drunk is irresponsible... but that in no way relieves, obviates, or diminishes the individual's responsibility.

[Jaxsonbrownie]

The Grandmother of this young man was quoted as stating that " his shipcard showed he had only purchased a few drinks, he shouldn't have been that intoxicated". That doesn't mean that a few of his friends may have bought him drinks, or that, the booze that was smuggled onboard by him and his friends, showed in a video tape, made by them, was an obvious factor in his intoxication level.That still doesn't make the cruiseline liable for over-serving him.I think it is obvious that the Listerine bottles full of liqueur,the bottles of Rum, and all the Crown Royal they had, was a factor into this tragedy.

[ldoc31]

I'm not saying the cruise line was responsible in this case. My point was that if he had been served too much by a bartender then they should share responsibility.

[Jaxsonbrownie]

I totally agree with you on that.It would be the same as someone being served in a bar, on dry land.I think you will also observe more discretion on the part of cruise ship bartenders on who to serve and who to "cut off", as we witnessed on our cruise.

[Pam in CA]

I read on another thread that the guy was seen (on video) sleeping in a lounge chair up on deck at around 12:15. He was then caught on tape leaning over at the rail at 2:16. It could be that he awoke feeling sick, was a little disoriented, ran for the rail a bit too hard and went over?

Unless he climbed on the railing or was over 7' tall, that's unlikely since the railings are designed to be a height to prevent that. Otherwise, you'd see or hear of a lot more people going overboard.

[JLC@SD]

Obviously, his grandmother didn't know about the large quantities of alcohol he and his friends had smuggled onboard the ship and drunk within a very short period of time.

 

Interviews with family members who don't have the facts or are ignoring them makes for sensational reporting but also goes a long way towards misleading the general public.

And the interviewer probably didn't know the facts or ignored them.......why didn't the interviewer ask his grandmother.......what about all the bottles he brought on board that he consumed....;)

[Pam in CA]

I'm not saying the cruise line was responsible in this case. My point was that if he had been served too much by a bartender then they should share responsibility.

Ordinarily, I would agree with you. Some people can drink a lot and not show obvious effects. If the bartender hadn't served an unusual number of drinks or observed drunkenness, then they would have no way of knowing how much the person had drunk. As others have said, it comes down to personal responsibility.

[ldoc31]

Ordinarily, I would agree with you. Some people can drink a lot and not show obvious effects. If the bartender hadn't served an unusual number of drinks or observed drunkenness, then they would have no way of knowing how much the person had drunk. As others have said, it comes down to personal responsibility.

 

The sad thing is that it is hard to remember personal responsibility when your brain is impaired. Personal responsibility needs to start after drink number two when your brain should say STOP.

[A Sixth?]

I read on another thread that the guy was seen (on video) sleeping in a lounge chair up on deck at around 12:15. He was then caught on tape leaning over at the rail at 2:16. It could be that he awoke feeling sick, was a little disoriented, ran for the rail a bit too hard and went over?

 

That be my guess. Very sad.

[Dena]

Of course I believe in personal responsibility. I also believe it is wrong for an establishment to knowingly serve someone who is drunk. I don’t know if RCCL did so. Someone wrote that RCCL has no blame – the only way I would be confident in such a conclusion would be if I knew that RCCL did NOT knowingly serve a clearly drunk person. Similarly I would not draw the conclusion that RCCL holds blame unless I knew that they HAD knowingly served a drunken person. I have no knowledge on this point and I have not formed a conclusion. However, I am concerned about the pressure the cruise lines put on their employees to sell alcohol. I rarely drink, except (perhaps) a glass of wine with dinner and I don’t drink soda. Many times I have felt uncomfortable at the shows and even in Horizon Court because it appeared to me that the waiters needed to sell drinks in order to earn a fair wage. I wish I could have thought of something to order that was for sale and that I would actually want to drink. I also remember a story about a woman who vanished from RCCL (I believe) and instead of telling her family, RCCL (I believe) gave her clothes to charity, erased the surveillance tapes, and transferred her cabin steward so that he could not be interviewed by the PI her family finally hired. I also heard that RCCL potentially sanitized the possible crime scene in the George Smith incident so that by the time the FBI got there most potential evidence was gone - I don’t know if this is true. But given such possible history, I have not yet formed the conclusion that RCCL holds no blame.[/SIZE]

[Jaxsonbrownie]

Of course the sale of alcohol is going to be pushed, this accounts for alot of the money spent onboard.And of course these employees are going to push selling it, they make a 15% gratuity for every drink they sell.But again, if a person can't control how much they drink. or can't say no under the "pressure" of the sale of these drinks, maybe a cruise isn't for them, because this is what they face when boarding these floating resorts. Maybe a land vacation, or an all-inclusive would be a better choice, where the alcohol is purchased through room service or at a bar or lounge on the premises, and not in their face like on a cruise ship. Self control & personal responsability, lies with the consumer.And regarding the George Smith story, here is a link to documented facts on the case, not just hearsay.http://www.royalcaribbean.com/ourCompany/pressCenter/pressReleases/info.do?prDate=01-05-2006&prCode=A

[Dena]

And regarding the George Smith story, here is a link to documented facts on the case, not just hearsay.http://www.royalcaribbean.com/ourCompany/pressCenter/pressReleases/info.do?prDate=01-05-2006&prCode=A

 

I believe these must be the facts that RCCL legal department has approved for posting. Do you have any facts from an independent source? As far as the alcohol goes, I believe it is (and should be) a crime to serve a drunk person on land. I don't know what (if any) laws apply to this situation at sea.

[mrdood]

I believe these must be the facts that RCCL legal department has approved for posting. Do you have any facts from an independent source? As far as the alcohol goes, I believe it is (and should be) a crime to serve a drunk person on land. I don't know what (if any) laws apply to this situation at sea.

 

That is a great concept, but you would need analytical equipment at every bar to test people per some standard. I know people that walk around goofy when they have had nothing to drink and some that can consume tons and still be rock steady when ordering additional drinks.

 

Enforcement would be impossible as well, this would stop the practice of me going to the bar and purchasing a round for my group, which we do frequently. Everyone would only be able to purchase for themselves, be tested at every drink and you would have to have staff that monitors that you do not pass off a drink to someone else.

 

There are some just obvious drunks, but as soon as you put the responsibility on some 25 year old kid from Indonesia that is tending bar to decide who not to serve, it won't work!!! Great idea, but absolutely impossible to manage operationally with current staff, processes and equipment.

 

Unless people are slipping something in your drinks, we have to be responsibile for ourselves - even if we continue to impair our ability to think, that is not anyone else's problem. I personally don't want to take a breath test every time I order a drink. Sometimes I like to get drunk and if I fall overboard - again, my own fault!

[MaryPoppinz]

It's pretty unrealistic to expect someone who has been drinking to excess to use good judgment about whether they should continue. In a decent society, I think we would want to take the keys, refuse the sale, and do what is reasonably prudent to stop someone who is already drunk from getting into danger.

 

I don't drink at all, and in fact, don't have much patience with the whole idea of drinking to excess. But, I know I wouldn't want to leave any judgment calls up to a drunk person. Even with as little experience with alcohol as I have, I can tell when someone is sufficiently past his prime and shouldn't be served.

[mrdood]

Even with as little experience with alcohol as I have, I can tell when someone is sufficiently past his prime and shouldn't be served.

 

Seasoned land based bartenders cannot do that, what makes you think that you can? Way too much physiology involved, you would cut someone off that would then sue becasue they could analytically prove they were not drunk - using a person to judge plain will NOT work except for the blatant extreme cases.

[Jaxsonbrownie]

More on the George Smith story, NOT from RCI..http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1546815 From the facts stated in this report, I would have to draw the conclusion again, that poor judgement on the part of the "victims", as in drinking very heavily and putting themselves in that very vulnerable position, had a part in this tragedy as well. And they were in fact, drinking something that was smuggled onboard,called Absinthe, which has a very high percentage of alcohol level, with known properties of being a hallucinagenic. Why would anyone want or need to drink this is beyond me, regular alcohol will do the trick. But as someone else stated, people sometimes drink just to get drunk, and if they do, it is their fault, and nobody else's. You might as well blame the company that made the alcohol, because it got you drunk, and they made it, it's their fault.They didn't bend your elbow to make you drink it, you chose to, hence putting yourself in that position. If the bartender served someone they shouldn't have, then yes, they have to share in the responsibility of the consequences that ensue, but if passengers continue to smuggle their own booze on board, and drink themselves into oblivion, that is their fault, and theirs alone.

[Dena]

if passengers continue to smuggle their own booze on board, and drink themselves into oblivion, that is their fault, and theirs alone.

 

Maybe so, if Mr. Smith fell over. But if he was thrown over, then it is the fault of the assailant. Drunk people don't deserve to be murdered (or raped).

[Jaxsonbrownie]

Dena, I gree with you 100% in that no one deserves to be a victim of any crime, whatsoever. But I also agree that people need to not put themselves into a position that makes them a potential victim to a criminal. That would mean being aware of your surroundings, don't go anywhere alone in a strange environment, and be sober enough to be aware of all these things, do not put yourself into a position that would cause tragedies like this to happen.

[MaryPoppinz]

you would cut someone off that would then sue becasue they could analytically prove they were not drunk.

 

LOL!

[DrD]

I believe these must be the facts that RCCL legal department has approved for posting. Do you have any facts from an independent source? As far as the alcohol goes, I believe it is (and should be) a crime to serve a drunk person on land. I don't know what (if any) laws apply to this situation at sea.

 

 

Hmmm, so does that mean it should be a crime to serve a fat person icecream?

 

Or a diabetic a donut?

 

Or sell anyone cigarettes?

 

Slippery slope.