Prior to this incident I posted concerns

[ptbernard]

I was on the inaugural cruise, the cruise that most often causes thoughts of Titanic. So I spent quite a lot of time on this board reading. I heard so much about the "Santuary" which didn't interest me. I wanted to know about the engineering of the ship. So I posted, requesting knowledge of any new technology or engineering advancement for this ship, and no one responded. I remember on Royal Carribbean a video explaining about the azipods that helped with the steering and stability. I thought that this ship must have had something that helped to compensate for the extreme tallness of this ship. I found no info regarding this issue. To me it just seemed it only had the old standards in engineering. My prayers are for a complete recovery for all those hurt in this incident.

[English Tim]

I was on the inaugural cruise, the cruise that most often causes thoughts of Titanic. So I spent quite a lot of time on this board reading. I heard so much about the "Santuary" which didn't interest me. I wanted to know about the engineering of the ship. So I posted, requesting knowledge of any new technology or engineering advancement for this ship, and no one responded. I remember on Royal Carribbean a video explaining about the azipods that helped with the steering and stability. I thought that this ship must have had something that helped to compensate for the extreme tallness of this ship. I found no info regarding this issue. To me it just seemed it only had the old standards in engineering. My prayers are for a complete recovery for all those hurt in this incident.

 

I assume you are referring to the Crown Princess.

[unforgiven]

Props and rudders have been proven over much a longer period of time than Azipods in ship design.

[Goldryder]

The incident with Crown Princess is very similar to the Grand Princess sharp turn/list on Feb 4th as she left Galveston. Both ships are powered the same way, both ships use the same computerised steering/control system and both, it seems, have inherent faults. How many other Grand class have this same potential problem...who knows?

[smeyer418]

sounds like a software problem more than anything else...in my opinion for what it is worth.(not much)

[skypilotks]

I thought the Grands incident was because an Officer did it due to a medical emergency??

[Rognish]

Back in ’02 when we were on the Infinity, we experience something similar to this. We were in Alaska and were heading up the Inland Passage. It was around lunch time, we were in the line for the buffet. One moment it was fine, the next moment the ship listed around 15 degrees, the plates in started breaking and luckily for us it was over soon after it happened. My heart and prays are out to the passengers of the crown.

[Goldryder]

I thought the Grands incident was because an Officer did it due to a medical emergency??

 

 

The turn was made by the crew, but it was later found that the software threw a wobbly due to the degree of turn, under namual control the ship would have handled it, but under computerised control, the systems can over-ride both to correct and to over-correct. It showed up a fault in the software setup that, in theory, should have been worked out of the rest of the Grand class ships and hopefully not even in the equation in the new ones.

 

There have been other cases of steering pods not communicating, QM2 had a similar fault develop where the crew wanted to turn one way but the pod went the other, it was a short circuit on the main control PCB and relatively simple to cure by changing the offending PCB.

 

Although cruise lines have stuck with pods, both static and steering, the general cargo industry dropped them quite some time ago on reliability issues. The cargo ships have pretty much all gone back to the old fashioned propeller/rudder combinations that are not so dependent on computer programming.

 

As we type, QM2 is still running with a pod missing after her altercation in Florida a few months ago, the pod is undergoing repair and will be put back onto the ship in November.

 

Pods are good sense for fuel consumption but are very questionable in reliability, and they are very vulnerable to damage from objects in the sea and computer software malfunctions.

[spongerob]

My first instinct too was that there is a software problem, after seeing the first report about this last evening on the news. My concern is that this might be a potential poblem in any ship using similar systems - Grand Class or otherwise. If I understand the reports, the stability problem took place after the ship was placed on automatic control. That's the first place I'd be looking for trouble.

[Hogger]

Anyone else have the feeling that cruise ships are being designed more "top heavy"? Not that they are unsafe per se but more prone to a roll if there is a rudder/pod/stabilizer problem. Btw my 30 ft cruiser had a problem with its trim tabs. The right tab would lose hydraulic pressure at speed and would cause an instant swerve and serious list requiring immediate corrective action. I can understand how this type of thing can happen.

[hotspur]

Back in ’02 when we were on the Infinity, we experience something similar to this. We were in Alaska and were heading up the Inland Passage. It was around lunch time, we were in the line for the buffet. One moment it was fine, the next moment the ship listed around 15 degrees, the plates in started breaking and luckily for us it was over soon after it happened.

We had a similar situation during dinner on Galaxy on a Panama Canal cruise two or three years ago. Sharp list to the left, crashing dishes and glasses, correction seconds later, and back to normal from then on. I believe Galaxy has a different propulsion system from Infinity, but the effect seemed very much the same. We were never given a thorough explanation for it.

[Goldryder]

The thing that disturbs me the most over everything else are the reports of water from the pools entering the liftshafts. That should never happen, there are design stautues etc that stop that from happening.

 

If the water did enter the shafts, then the list is possibly greater than the 18.5 degrees that Grand suffered in February and seeing as the Crown was experiencing/reporting steering problems just before the list got bad, then there is something very wrong with the command PCB on the autopilot to steering pods system.

 

Like the Star Princess fire, this too could have significant repercussions for all steering pod equipped ships with pods of the same manufacturer as Crown and Grand...which will almost certainly include all CCL Group ships built after a certain date with identical fitments.

 

Grand had her problem some time after entering service, Crown within weeks, which means that the fault could essentially strike at any time.

 

That, along with a list sufficient enough to pour water from the pools down the liftshafts, does concern me alot.

 

Perhaps the easiest and cheapest way to sort this would be to retrofit a manual over-ride to the steering componant of the autopilot so that if a list/turn of this sort happens again it can be acted upon and stopped before it reaches a critical point.

[ewheelock]

Does anyone know if the Caribbean Princess has the same set up? I would think that it does since in was put into service in 2004.

[negc]

I'm not an engineer, but I thought I read that the Crown Princess problem involved its rudder. It is my understanding that ships which use azipods do not have rudders and none of Princess' ships have azipods. Am I missing something? I know that there have been reliability problems with some azipod systems, but this does not seem to be related to the problem with the steering system utilized by the Crown Princess since, as noted above, none of Princess' ships use azipods.

[mrBit]

that is correct the Crown Princess to my knowledge uses a rudder and not pods.

[mindykatz]

I'm pretty certain it was a computer/software malfunction...basically because since I was on this ship when it happened and felt what occured...it listed a little bit..straighted out..listed again...straighted out..then listed HARD...

 

Almost as if the computer tried to turn, got caught...tried to turn..got caught...then just malfunctioned completely.

 

But you know what? Its a new ship. Stuff happens. Its a shame but its not like this happened on purpose. Some of the threads I've been reading....people sound like they think the captain wanted a bit of fun or something...how stupid! Princess's name is tarnished because of this..you think they wanted it to happen? Of course not.

 

This incident was very scary, but i will not hesitate to take another cruise, anotehr princess cruise, and even another cruise on the Crown (after a while).

 

Right now I am listening to some stupid lady talking on the phone with someone saying that we were 2.5 seconds away from flipping over.

 

WORD OF CAUTION: DO NOT BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU HEAR FROM PEOPLE. Another RIDICLOUS rumor I heard is people are saying that sea water rushed into the boat - DID NOT HAPPEN. Also heard someone told the news that the boat flipped over COMPLETELY - of COURSE that DID NOT HAPPEN. Be careful what you believe! People are blowing this WAY OUT OF PROPORTION.

[mindykatz]

I would also liek to add that the staff and crew on the Crown has been ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC. WONDERFUL. SUPER. Just superb. They had to go through this too, and they had to immediately pick themselves up and start crowd control. Dinner that night was fantastic - best food I had all cruise!!!!

 

THANK YOU!

[mindykatz]

I would also like to add that the staff and crew on the Crown has been ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC. WONDERFUL. SUPER. Just superb. They had to go through this too, and they had to immediately pick themselves up and start crowd control. Dinner that night was fantastic - best food I had all cruise!!!!

 

THANK YOU!

[mrBit]

re-post

[mrBit]

Definitely agree, that it sounds like a software problem or computer command to the end PLC(Programmable Logic Control) being in error.

 

If the rudder locked and the stabilizers were out and it was a hard turn, it would cause tremendous drag and source of heeling on that point of resistance from the stabilizer.

 

Even a locked rudder to a hard turn position will cause a list; usually the bow thrusters can help with this to alleviate hard rudder turn positions.

 

Years ago Airbus had a plane crash during testing from an autopilot computer error.

 

As for the stories out there, I am sure the story will grow and get bigger than it has, I have read blogs that had a wave hitting the ship, attempts at making it to be a Hollywood movie at the expense of the injured passengers and Princess.

[unforgiven]

No Azipods on the Crown

 

http://www.princess.com/news/article.jsp?newsArticleId=na800&submit=pk

[Stevesan]

I was on the inaugural cruise, the cruise that most often causes thoughts of Titanic. So I spent quite a lot of time on this board reading. I heard so much about the "Santuary" which didn't interest me. I wanted to know about the engineering of the ship. So I posted, requesting knowledge of any new technology or engineering advancement for this ship, and no one responded. I remember on Royal Carribbean a video explaining about the azipods that helped with the steering and stability. I thought that this ship must have had something that helped to compensate for the extreme tallness of this ship. I found no info regarding this issue. To me it just seemed it only had the old standards in engineering. My prayers are for a complete recovery for all those hurt in this incident.

 

I'm sure that today the Princess board of directors regrets not listening to your concerns. They surely would have stood down the entire fleet after consulting with you.

What a shame, this all could have been so easily avoided by installing azipods and shortening all their ships.

[chopper825]

Mindaykatz, sorry that your cruise was interrupted by such a scary event, but thank you for your cool headed perspective. I am scheduled to sail on the Crown and will still happily do so next summer. It is really a breath of fresh air to read your posts and I am so glad that you are alright. I hope that the crew and passengers that suffered injuries are all doing well. Good luck to you and have a safe trip home if you are not there already.

[denneym1]

I would also like to add that the staff and crew on the Crown has been ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC. WONDERFUL. SUPER. Just superb.

 

I am glad you are OK, and glad to hear that the crews response was up to par. That was the consensus of those that were on the Star during the fire also, that the crew did an outstanding job.

 

Princess has delayed the sailing only until the 22nd, so they must be pretty sure they have a handle on what happened and can prevent it from happening again. Have you heard anymore on board about the cause or the fix for it?

Mike

[Leafpeeper]

I don't know alot about computers, but 2 and 2 told me that it may be time to do away with those dang machines. Time to replace the joy stick and get a real captain at the helm steering the vessel. It makes me nervous thinking about somebody steering such a huge ship with a little bitty stick. Give me a great big steering wheel any day.