Tour bus operators cry exploitation by cruise lines

[OhioJeff]

Four tour bus drivers refused to take Carnival passengers on an island tour because they claimed that the cruise liner, which was docked in George Town last week was offering almost 50 percent less fares.

 

Rest of the article

http://www.caymannetnews.com/cgi-script/csArticles/articles/000104/010471.htm

[klfrodo]

Doesn't really suprise me.

 

My job takes me to Ketchikan, Juneau, and Anchorage. I overnighted in Ketchikan once and met someone who owns an excursion. He indicated that contracting with the cruiselines is good money. One of the problems is that the cruiseline gets about a 50% kickback from his operation.

[zaandam_2]

no real surprise. if you've ever compared the ship's price to the excursions offered on the pier, the non-ship ones about about half the price.

 

in europe the scam is different. the ship's tours have forced shopping stops. i'm sure the ship gets a cut of the sales.

[cmalibu1]

This doesnt surprise me either, just another one of the reasons I book directly through the place offering the excursion rather than with carnival. You always get better prices, and there is no middle man running the money for you. I think the cruise lines have probably been experiencing less people booking through them for the excursions, since it is known that they charge more, for basically no real reason except to make more money.

[MamaParrotHead]

$4 pp x about 50 people is still $200 for DRIVING a BUS for a few hours, we're not talking brain surgery. Yeah, it sucks that Carnival is pocketing the majority of the profit, but then they can refuse to work with Carnival (as they are) and I'm sure it won't be long until someone else is willing to take what Carnival is offering. If it were me and the choice was between that or scaring up business on my own, I'd take whatever money they're offering and run.

[BigDoug]

This doesnt surprise me either, just another one of the reasons I book directly through the place offering the excursion rather than with carnival. You always get better prices, and there is no middle man running the money for you. I think the cruise lines have probably been experiencing less people booking through them for the excursions, since it is known that they charge more, for basically no real reason except to make more money.

All Carnival excursions are pre-screened for cruise passengers. The tour operators are required to be licensed and insured. Their vehicles/boats are required to inspected for safety. Many times when there are problems with an excursion, your money may be refunded by the cruise line. You are buying a certain amount of security when you book a ship's excursion. When you book on your own, you are basically on your own. The cruise line will not get involved if there is a problem. Caveat emptor.

[PlanoDebbie]

$4 pp x about 50 people is still $200 for DRIVING a BUS for a few hours, we're not talking brain surgery. Yeah, it sucks that Carnival is pocketing the majority of the profit, but then they can refuse to work with Carnival (as they are) and I'm sure it won't be long until someone else is willing to take what Carnival is offering. If it were me and the choice was between that or scaring up business on my own, I'd take whatever money they're offering and run.

 

The buses they use in Cayman only hold about 20-22 people on them. They are more of a large van. If the driver has to pay for gas out of his $4/person, I could see where they're a bit upset. I think we also had a second person on with the driver to explain what we were seeing on our ride.

[kujobie]

If more people booked privately, this problem wouldn't exist.

[Jenna1983]

Gas in Grand Cayman was $8/gallon last week (per a lady we met who is originally from the United States). If you think about it, a lot of the tour operators driving vans pay a hell of a lot in gas. :shrug

[njs]

All Carnival excursions are pre-screened for cruise passengers. The tour operators are required to be licensed and insured. Their vehicles/boats are required to inspected for safety. Many times when there are problems with an excursion, your money may be refunded by the cruise line. You are buying a certain amount of security when you book a ship's excursion. When you book on your own, you are basically on your own. The cruise line will not get involved if there is a problem. Caveat emptor.

 

Yes, ideally this is what Carnival pushes as the reason for booking excursions thru them. Well perhaps you should read the thread about the people on the stingray excursion just recently in the Cayman Islands (Costa ship I think which is owned by Carnival) The tour boat capsized, people lost their belongings and passports and there were some minor injuries etc, and they were told to air their grievances and get remuneration from the tour company ON THEIR OWN. So perhaps that feeling of security is somewhat false. I can see paying extra if it is indeed

safer with carnival as the go-between, but not if they wipe their hands of a situation gone sour

[bphman]

My personal experience with excursions gone wrong is totally different and I found Carnival to be fantastic. We booked an excursion in Barcelona this past summer. I fell down and sustained a head injury. It wasn't serious but I was flat on my back and bleeding quite a bit as head injuroes do. They arranged for transportation back to the ship and the medical staff did a great job. Never charged me a penny for medical care. Refunded the entire cost of the excursion for all 5 of us, $750, and came by to check up on me. I Costa Rica last month, our excursion didn't go completely as planned. We were supposed to have a train ride and rainforest trip. The train tracks were under water and we had to continue by bus. They automatically refunded 50% which I found by checking my S&S account. Yes, they are expensive but I pay for peace of mind.

[smrn]

I would love to save $ and book independently, but I have always been afraid that I wouldn't get back in time and miss the ship. Am I the only one that worries about stuff like this?

[5668200]

We always book with the cruise line. We heard of some people (I think 6-8 of them) on our ship a few years ago that booked their own excursion. Their bus got a flat tire on the other side of the island, spare was flat too, and they were unable to get more transportation in time to catch the ship before it left, so they were left behind to find their way to the next island. I know most people do fine finding their own excursions, but every once in a while you hear of things like this. The extra money we spend booking with the cruise line is peace of mind for us and our peace of mind is worth quite a lot.

[BigDoug]

I would love to save $ and book independently, but I have always been afraid that I wouldn't get back in time and miss the ship. Am I the only one that worries about stuff like this?

No, you are not alone. Most cruisers like the peace of mind that they get by booking thru the cruiseline. This is just like the argument for travel insurance. Some buy it and some don't. Who's going to be better off if there is a problem? You have to balance the risk versus the reward.

[Phoenix1]

I'm missing something here. The article states:

 

"Out of that money, US$7.75 goes to the entrance fee for the Turtle Farm; $10 for the buses, and another $10 for the boats, leaving $4 which is the Caymanian Land and Sea Cooperative’s commission."

 

I assume that the busses are independently owned and the owner gets paid $10pp. (I may be wrong in that assumption) It seems to me that the "Cooperative" getting $4pp for every single person who takes a boat or bus tour sure would add up to a lot of money. Lets say that 400 people on each ship take a tour each day and there is 2 ships in port every day. Thats 800 x $4 = $3,200. Multiply that by 365 and thats an annual income of $1,168,000. Just exactly where does that money go???

 

Maybe someone with a little more insight can chime in on this?

 

I do agree, however, that the cruise lines mark up the excursions too much. I would think that a 20% markup would be more fair, instead of their typical 100% markup.

 

I can also tell you that tour guide is one of the best paying jobs for many of these countries. There was one stop (may have been Jamaica) where the government actually appoints the tour guides and then banks their income to put them through college.

 

Finally - The european cruises are not the only ones where they have the mandatory shopping stops. I have been on several tours in the caribbean where the tour stopped at shops that the ship "recommended". Of course the ship tells you TIME AND TIME AGAIN to tell them what ship you are from to get them their kickback, um I mean to get your special discount. Whenever shopping I tell the merchants that I am not with a ship. Gets me a better price and it keeps more money in the merchants pocket.

[njs]

We always book with the cruise line. We heard of some people (I think 6-8 of them) on our ship a few years ago that booked their own excursion. Their bus got a flat tire on the other side of the island, spare was flat too, and they were unable to get more transportation in time to catch the ship before it left, so they were left behind to find their way to the next island. I know most people do fine finding their own excursions, but every once in a while you hear of things like this. The extra money we spend booking with the cruise line is peace of mind for us and our peace of mind is worth quite a lot.

 

Apart from one time, we have always booked thru the cruiseline - I agree that my peace of mind is worth more than the money saved. And I have no desire to be left behind in a 3rd world country where I may not even speak the language. That was why I was so shocked when I read the horror stories from people on the capsized excursion boat at stingray city.

In that instance, it sounds like the ship pointed the finger to the tour operator and the tour operator pointed back to the ship. Will have to go back to those boards to see if it was ever resolved.

 

Went back to the boards for costa mediteranea - people were refunded the cost of the tour by Costa- this is a posting by one of those involved - sorry cant get the picture

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

This is a photo of the boat right after it capsized. I am not sure how to link so all can see the other photos I have. (A person we met back on the ship was on another excursion and took several photos of the incident) You can see people clinging to the top of the boat, several heads on the horizon. May family is further out to the right; you cannot see them in this photo.

 

This photo looks a little different than the one that the newspaper published. At the time, I thought the boat was going to flip and cover all the people clinging to the side of the boat. I suspect that after the boat sat in the water for a while, it settled. You can clearly see that it appeared that the boat looked like it was going to completely roll over on everyone.

 

Yes, we did book this tour through Costa. The name of the tour was Reef and Rays. Yes, Costa did refund the cost of the excursion. No I have not heard anything about a future cruise credit.

 

I will also post this on the Cayman Board – Kirk Sea Tours was the name of the excursion operator.

 

As for the water on board - every person that was on the lower deck (my eight family members included) reported water to the crew and also to the authorities that took our statements back on the ship - I am not sure why the newspaper is not mentioning this?

 

My biggest concern is that corrective measures are taken everywhere, not just the Cayman Islands so that this never happens again. I am confident that if there had been elderly or very young children on board people would have died.

 

On the way back to the ship we had to take a tender, my wife was very upset, she asked me to check with the crew to see where the life jackets were. The crewmember smugly said not to worry we won’t need them. I quickly explained that we were on a boat that had just capsized; he then explained that the life jackets for everyone (both decks) were located on the top deck. Let me tell you, I do not believe this is acceptable – when our boat capsized it only took seconds and everyone was in the water.

Attached Images

[njs]

happened spring 2006

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[VentureMan_2000]

The issue is with the Co-operative... not Carnival.

 

If they use the co-operative as their barganing agent with the cruiselines... then they need to take up the pricing issue with the co-operative. Pretty simple to me...

[TCF]

The first cruise we took we did nothing but Carnival purchased excursions...and all of them were pricey...but except for one part of an Ocho Rios tour...were as advertised.

Now we are a little wiser. Research on these boards...talking with people who have done excursions...not once but several times...in the places we are going ...backed up by a healthy dose of slepticism and timing rules...we now will book our own and save some money in most cases.

From what we have learned:

1. Carnival does not go out and check to make sure every vendor's product is as advertised. (Sometimes crew members will get cut rates to take excursions on thier days off and will report back to the ship or the CD.) The Shore Execursion desk on Triumph explained that to us when we complained about part of the Ocho Rios tour we went on. They told us Carnival is simply the agent of the vendor and provides the service to make life easier for its passengers. Which is exactly what it does!

2. While some believe that the cruise line will wait for you if you are on one of the excursions they sell...that is not necessarily so! If the ship is tendering then there is rarely a problem waiting for all their tours to get back. But if the ship is tied up at a pier neither the cruise line, or the Captain of the ship has control over when the ship leaves once its departure time has arrived. The Harbour Master of each port controls entirely when a ship will go....and when he/she says...out of my port....the ship leaves! The fines for failing to leave are far greater than the cost of making sure passengers get transport to the next port of call if they are left behind.

3. The peace of mind, (remembering #2), of taking a ship purchased excursion that is more than 5 hours on an 8 hour stop over is a must for us.

 

So...research the boards...ask people the questions...make notes of people's experiences...you'll see the same names for tour companies on various islands coming up over and over again..both good and bad.

 

The argument that Carnival and the others rip off the excursion providers is none of my business. These people are adults and business operators and there are ways for them to come together to stop the cruise lines from ripping them off, if indeed that is what is happening...but I do notice the operators, cabbies, etc seem much happier and willing to go the extra little bit when they know you are not on a cruise ship bought ticket.:D

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Tom:)

[oldvato]

Carnival tells you that the tours are through 3rd party operators which have to meet Carnival's specs. However, they also tell you that they are not responsible for the tour operator's problems. What CArnival does offer you is their guarantee that you will not be left behind while on one of these tours as they know where you are and the tour operators are in contact with them in case they are running late.

 

If you are off on your own, they most likely will not wait for you because they have no idea where you are or if you are coming back.

 

As far as tour bus drivers and tour guide's salarys, haven't you every noticed that they also put out the tip bucket at the end of your tour? I'm sure they do alright on tips.

[oldvato]

2. While some believe that the cruise line will wait for you if you are on one of the excursions they sell...that is not necessarily so! If the ship is tendering then there is rarely a problem waiting for all their tours to get back. But if the ship is tied up at a pier neither the cruise line, or the Captain of the ship has control over when the ship leaves once its departure time has arrived. The Harbour Master of each port controls entirely when a ship will go....and when he/she says...out of my port....the ship leaves! The fines for failing to leave are far greater than the cost of making sure passengers get transport to the next port of call if they are left behind.

 

All ships cannot enter or leave a port without permission from Port Control. As to how strict they are with cruise ships as to how long they can stay in port past their scheduled departure time, I don't know. Maybe someone can shed some light on that. But I do know that some of these countries depend on tourism and port fees for their economy. I'm not so sure that cruise lines would be doing business with any of these countries for too long if they were assesed a heavy fine because there was a problem leaving on time. Maybe someone can shed some light on that too. On the other hand, I'm sure that a ship does have to get underway with enough time to meet their next scheduled stop.

 

Freighters is another story. They have to come in to ports to deliver their cargo. Cruise lines, however, can drop a port anytime they want to.

[Jenna1983]

/\ I don't know for sure, but when I was on the Glory in 2005 (delayed leaving nine hours) the "port" in Progreso said we either left by midnight or we were docked until the next morning because they were closing the port at midnight. :shrug So they must have some say.

[mamamo65]

As I have mentioned on other strings, we did the awful Pearl Island Treasure Hunt in March 06, thru Carnival. I spoke with pursers desk on ship, someone called my room. Both times I strongly expressed my displeasure with the tour, lack of organization, not being able to get what we had paid for and my injury with lack of first aid. Finally after calling numerous times the main office in Miami I was sent a letter saying the same policy as the documents. Carnival offers the excursions as a courtesy and is NOT responsible. They were nice enough to send me $30 ship board credit on the $300 it cost my family(3):eek: .

[fig414]

I think this stinks. These guys helped Mitch McDeere back in the 90's. They lost a member of their family and helped put that law firm out of business.