Saga Rose Greenland Voyager August 2007

[Saga Ruby]

CCritic News reports that Princess has canceled the Jamaican ports of Ocho Rios and Montego Bay for their 2009-2010 itineraries due to passengers' negative feedback which mentioned the rampant drug culture and crime. The only time I have ever been seriously, physically threatened was on two separate cruises to Jamaica in the '80s. I have never been back nor will I. While a segment of Jamaican culture believes in hating the tourists, I wonder how they will feel when the economy in those two towns is severely impacted by the withdrawal of the cruise ships.

 

The scenarios in Europe between the Romany pickpockets and their tourist targets is one thing, but being shoved to the absolute edge of a canyon rim by an angry crowd of Jamaicans was a whole 'nuther story. The crowd of Jamaicans knew, and I knew, that the Jamaicans couldn't care less if I went over the cliff. Pay for some coffee-bean necklaces or you're a goner - I paid.

 

Donald, I agree about Skagway and the density of tourists, but don't you think there would be a higher number in town if 4 cruise ships were visiting on the same day? I like your facility for numbers and wondered what you are using for the average of pax pouring off of a given ship? By the bye, a dropdead gorgeous photo - congrats!

 

Ruby

[Kapricorn]

My parents and I visited Jamaica during the mid-1960s. We flew to Montego Bay, stayed for a few days, visited the Ocho Rios falls, and then took a train to Kingston, riding in a small first-class compartment at the end of the last coach. We enjoyed the spectacular views. We felt safe back in these days.

 

My parents and I were in Ocho Rios again in 2001, when our cruise ship stopped there. We were amazed at how things had changed at the Ocho Rios falls. It had become very commercialized and was congested with tourists from two cruise ships. Outside the docks we had to run the gauntlet of the hawkers with their cheap wares. They crowded around us. We were not comfortable.

 

As we walked to the falls there was a sudden torrential downpour, which, as usual, lasted for maybe two or three minutes in these parts. The three of us took shelter underneath a large tree that was just beside us. There was pandemonium among the crowd. A woman wearing flip-flops lost her balance while running, and fell and very badly scraped her knee. Another woman tripped over her and landed on her face, opening a gash on her forehead. An ambulance had to be called to take them to first aid. Both were crying and moaning in pain. I doubt that they enjoyed the rest of their cruise.

 

As for statistics, if there are several cruise ships of varying sizes in port, I use the average of 2,000 passengers for each ship. Not everyone would head to town. Some would go elsewhere on tours, or others would simply remain on the ships, or go to town at different times. Perhaps the average of 2,000 would be an overestimate - it could actually be 1,250 who would be off each ship at any one time. What do any of you think?

 

Glad that you liked the photograph.

 

Donald.

[franu]

Princess is listening to its passengers. Happy passengers equal a better bottom line. This is a move that makes economical sense. They are also sending a very strong message to the Jamaica Tourist Board and the Jamaican government.

 

I believe that this message will be received "loud and clear". It is much more effective than words.

Fran

[Saga Ruby]

I'm confused about "modern" ships. I thought that nowadays the megaships carry at least 2,500 pax per cruise and that that number goes into the stratosphere with the newest Freedoms, Libertys, and don't get me started on Oasis and Allure, the Genesis class ships (what strange names!)

 

Donald, you sail frequently - what size complement of ship's passengers is the "standard" size in regard to passengers onboard? Your comment about 2,000 pax interested me. So you're counting 2,000 pax as a median number for one cruise? Which brings up the question - will the Alaska ports limit the size of the ships which call? Will the Genesis ships sail only in the Caribbean?

 

Ruby

[Saga Ruby]

Princess is listening to its passengers. Happy passengers equal a better bottom line. This is a move that makes economical sense. They are also sending a very strong message to the Jamaica Tourist Board and the Jamaican government.

 

I believe that this message will be received "loud and clear". It is much more effective than words. Fran

 

I absolutely agree with you. In most cases, when cruise ships pull out of a port, the local governments hasten to assure the cruise lines that they will be welcomed back to a safer environment.

 

It will be interesting to see if the Jamaican government is more interested in the commerce of tourism or letting their towns continue their regrettable atmospheres of drugs and crime.

 

Ruby

[Druke I]

While most of us do not care for the "megaships", I do think the median range is somewhat lower than you propose.

 

Princess has 4 ships up in Alaska with a passenger load (each) of under 2000 PAX, with one carrying only 670. (All loads are stated in double occupancy.)

 

Holland America has 8 ships up in Alaska this season, highest double occupany load is 1916, lowest 1258.

 

I guess it really depends on what your definition of a megaship is.

 

I prefer using panamax and postpanamax for definition. Former will fit through the current locks of the Panama Canal, latter will not.

[Saga Ruby]

Princess has 4 ships up in Alaska with a passenger load (each) of under 2000 PAX, with one carrying only 670. (All loads are stated in double occupancy.) Holland America has 8 ships up in Alaska this season, highest double occupany load is 1916, lowest 1258.

 

Now see? That's why I have y'all to keep me up-to-date. I had no idea what the numbers are of "modern" ships - I hear huge numbers tossed around for behemoths and my mind makes that great leap forward that most current ships are carrying high numbers. I don't even have a real idea of how many pax were on my one megaship, Constellation. I assume it was around 2,000 but I dunno.

 

I'm a big fan of Oceania and know that their newbuilds are going to be around 1,200 pax. I wonder if the ship sizes will absorb the higher number of pax so we won't need a traffic light at the gangway?

 

Ruby

[Druke I]

Yes, Oceania's newbuilds will carry about 1,200 PAX, and be roughly 62,000GRT, still well below the Panamax limit of about 100,000 GRT.

 

I don't remember at this late date if you sailed on the original Royal Princess (now P&O's Artemis), but I always thought she was about the ideal size: 45,000 GRT, although she did carry 1,200 PAX, hence seemed a tad crowded at times. Crystal Harmony (now Asuka II) was about the same size, but only carried 1,000, I believe.

 

Princess's Coral & Island Princess, at 92,000 GRT and 1,970 PAX are, in my opinion, very nice ships - and about as big as I can take.

 

I guess my point is a ship can be large, but not overwhelming.

 

I don't know Constellation's double occupancy passenger load, and am too lazy to google it.

[Druke I]

Changed my mind, and googled Constellation.

 

91,000GRT, 2100 PAX.

 

I wouldn't call her a behemoth either, as she is Panamax.

[Saga Ruby]

Changed my mind, and googled Constellation.

 

91,000GRT, 2100 PAX. I wouldn't call her a behemoth either, as she is Panamax.

 

Thanks for the numbers. I had no idea there were 2,100 pax on the Connie altho' she seemed to be quite busy all the time. One shock I had in 2003 was that she has large and small conference rooms and, many times, they were being used. And don't get me started on the Travel Office onboard - there were lines out the door whenever the office was open for business.

 

I also was gobsmacked when the elevator door opened and I realized there was an entire floor of spas and gym areas. At that time, I had no clue that spas were such big business and, as far as exercise, I can hold down a deckchair with the best of 'em.

 

As you can see, it was a whole 'nuther world for me. I turned tail and ran back to my beloved small ships. Thanks for the memory jog, Michael. Now I remember why I never went back to the behemoths.

 

Ruby

[Saga Ruby]

A sincere Thanks to all our veterans, white, black, and brown, for serving in the armed forces and, for so many, paying the ultimate price - "the last full measure of devotion."

 

Americans have the freedom to enjoy a generous lifestyle due to the unstinting devotion by all American soldiers who marched before us, breaking the trail and protecting our rights and our borders so that the rest of us can live free.

 

Ruby

[Druke I]

I totally agree.

 

We are blessed in the country.

 

I am a Cold War Veteran, incredibly lucky through an accident of birth. Too young for Korea (although I tried to enlist), and an overage veteran (Draft Classification 5A) by the time we admitted our involvement in Vietnam.

 

Im very proud of my service in the United States Army Military Police Corps.

[Saga Ruby]

As you are a frequent cruiser on different cruise lines, please tell us what you have experienced or heard recently about Celebrity. I sailed on the Connie in 2003 and it was certainly a good cruise because the ship’s interior design was beautiful and the entire hotel staff was making maximum efforts to make it a quality cruise. But my impression is that, lately, RCI is allowing the Celebrity brand to slide down a few notches in regard to service and quality of accommodation.

 

Two of my friends on the Millie said that they felt that upper management on the hotel staff onboard didn’t care at all about quality of service details. When asked to correct details that shouldn’t have been missed, the hotel staff would laugh like kids caught with their hands in the cookie jar and correct the problem. And this couple was stuck on the ship for weeks around South America - their comment was, "Never again." The Millie wasn’t bad, but it certainly wasn’t quality - passengers shouldn’t have to be pointing out service errors.

 

An April review of Summit was not good. A couple with high numbers of cruises on many cruise lines over decades did a review on that ship and reported that the carpet was tired, there were chips out of the tiles in the shower, on and on. They weren’t complaining, they were more disappointed at what they encountered as a shipboard experience. What are your observations from over the past few years about the quality of Celebrity? Do you feel the brand name is being allowed to slip?

 

Also, since I am turning to my HAL cruise next year, what are your impressions of the company in a broader view, not just one ship? Right now, the hot topic on the HAL boards is the possible change in its smoking policy and, for me as a nonsmoker, it’s fingers crossed for May 2009.

 

Thanks for any thoughts or observations you may have. By the bye, did most of the pax participate in Hat Night on your recent cruise or were there noticeably fewer attendees in the GDR?

 

Ruby

[Druke I]

delete - can't make the link work!

[Druke I]

Perhaps you might have more luck.

 

Interesting website with comparison statistics for some 157 cruise ships currently in service.

 

http://www.nauticalcities.com

[Kapricorn]

What are your observations from over the past few years about the quality of Celebrity? Do you feel the brand name is being allowed to slip?

 

Also, since I am turning to my HAL cruise next year, what are your impressions of the company in a broader view, not just one ship? Right now, the hot topic on the HAL boards is the possible change in its smoking policy and, for me as a nonsmoker, it’s fingers crossed for May 2009.

 

Thanks for any thoughts or observations you may have. By the bye, did most of the pax participate in Hat Night on your recent cruise or were there noticeably fewer attendees in the GDR?

 

Ruby

 

On Mercury before her drydocking last year, I indeed observed threadbare carpets and seats. However, considering that tens of thousands of passengers trod on these carpets, I overlooked their condition. I observed new carpeting replacing the old here and there throughout the ship. One afternoon, as I lunched in the buffet, I noticed the maitre d' angrily removing two chairs from tables and gesticulating to the staff. There were thread and fabric hanging down from the seat backs of these two chairs. So, Celebrity's upper-level staff was not ignoring maintenance issues.

 

As for HAL, I would cruise on that line again, and indeed I have booked two cruises on it next year. I consider that the service by the Indonesian and Filipino staff is just a notch above that of Celebrity's. However, dining room food and presentation on Celebrity is a notch above that of HAL's.

 

As for smoking restrictions, as a non-smoker I am in agreement with you. However, there are couples who are a smoker and a non-smoker. That would be a dilemma for such couples who wish to cruise together. I would hope that HAL would adopt Celebrity's soon-to-be policy of smoking areas here and there on their ships. There has to be a middle ground somewhere.

 

As for the Hat Night, I would say that 85% of the dining room passengers good-naturedly plunked on their hats. The remainder were neither pressured to do so nor made fun of. At my Ryndam table, none of the four of us condescended to don our hats. I did not notice fewer diners at the other tables that night. In fact, there were more tables full at the lower deck because the as-you-wish-dining passengers took the opportunity to experience the spectacle, perhaps one which you might avail of yourself on your next HAL cruise (and snicker about it on your return to this board).

 

Perhaps you might have more luck.

 

Interesting website with comparison statistics for some 157 cruise ships currently in service.

 

www.nauticalcities.com

 

Thanks for the link to that site! It was very interesting to compare the cruise ships. What I couldn't get is that in some classes of ships, a ship might be maybe 68 tons more than her sister-ship. I understand that tonnage is not based on weight, but on the space available to passengers and crew. There must be some kind of a weird formula to calculate tonnage.

 

Donald.

[Druke I]

Donald

 

Yes, normally tonnage (GRT- gross registered tonnage) is volume of interior space.

 

Some lines have taken to recalculating the tonnage by eliminating the space of balconies (unless hull cut, they are exterior!), to save money transiting the Panama Canal, etc., and calling the new calculation GT (gross tonnage).

 

It would be so much simpler if they would all adopt Displacement Tonnage (the amount of water displaced by the ship), but then you would have "doctoring" of the figures the same way the US Navy does: normal displacement and full load (wartime) displacement.

 

I suppose then they could go to Deadweight Tonnage!

[Kapricorn]

Michael, I remember when the United States used to be 53,000 tons, and then later it was lowered to something like 38,910 tons. There was something fishy about such a massive reduction. The 53,000 tons seems much more appropriate for her size.

 

Donald.

[Druke I]

Another thought:

 

On the newest modified Grand class ships of Princess, they have an enclosed area on the pool deck called the Sanctuary, which under the GRT method does increase the tonnage.

[Kapricorn]

Isn't the fact that Michael and I posted at exactly the same time a first for this thread? In the past, BCScot and I had posted within one, two or three minutes of each other, but I don't believe ever at the same time.

 

Donald.

[Saga Ruby]

When I returned to Saga Rose from an Orkneys shorex last August, I went to my room to put away my souvenirs and get ready for dinner. I turned on the telly and was paying almost no attention to the black-and-white program starring Kenneth Moore, a British star who was a personal favourite of mine.

 

After hearing a bit of the plot evolve, I realized that it seemed to be about Titanic and that terrible crossing, but where was Clifton Webb? I was sooo confused and thought my memory was playing tricks with me.

 

It turns out that there was a British remake of the Titanic story made in 1958. Tonight on cable TV, that Kenneth Moore version will be shown and I hope to watch it. Forevermore, when I see Kenneth Moore on Titanic, I will remember the Orkneys and Saga Rose. Memory is a funny ole thang.

 

There is a rumour in the air that Saga Cruises may acquire Transocean's Astor for either a replacement for Rose or an additional ship. It will be fun to watch this possibility. When I view Astor on the Web, it looks very similar to the original Royal Viking ships but some fact-checking revealed that it was never part of that line. Stay tuned.

 

Oh by the way, Donald, that is a smashing new photo of you. There wouldn't be an oil painting of you in an attic somewhere, would there?

 

Ruby

[Kapricorn]

I've seen both Titanic versions with Clifton Webb and Kenneth Moore - several times, in fact. They recur quite often on television. Recently, on Turner Classic Movies, I saw a Titanic version filmed by Germany during WWII. It was a propaganda piece, with the English passengers behaving cowardly during the sinking, and a German (!) officer acting nobly among the British crew.

 

I was wondering how long it would take you to figure out the painting-in-the-attic thing. LOL!! Thank you for the compliment.

 

Dorian.

[Druke I]

A Night to Remember is an excellent movie - I've watched it several times (but will miss it tonight).

 

The version with Clifton Webb and Barbara Stanwyck certainly is interesting, but not as true to history as the Kenneth More version. Stanwyck was always a favorite of mine, and Clifton Webb almost always played a wonderful snob.

 

Kenneth More also played an interesting role in Battle of Britain. Story was not so hot, but the flying scenes were outstanding.

[Saga Ruby]

Uh oh. I misspelled his surname. No soup for you!

 

To our Brit friends - was the More pronounced as in "Roger Moore" or as in "more soup, sir?"

 

Ruby

[Kapricorn]

Uh oh. I misspelled his surname. No soup for you!

 

I also plead guilty to misspelling Kenneth More's surname. After all, it has been 50 years since he starred in the Titanic flick, and I've developed more grey cells in my brain since then ...

 

Upon research, I noted that Kenneth More died in 1982 at the age of 68. So, he was 40-something when he was in the Titanic flick. I have no respect for the character which he played, Lightoller. He took Captain Smith's order, "Women and children first" literally and forbade male passengers into 1/3 empty lifeboats on the port side. Even John Jacob Astor was not allowed into a largely-empty lifeboat with his pregnant 18-year-old bride. Male passengers had better odds on the starboard side, where lifeboats were lowered even if overloaded. At the inquiries, Lightoller never once expressed remorse for following his Captain's ill-advised order. Overall, Titanic lifeboats were lowered with 400 empty spots.

 

Ruby, I've never heard the expression, "No soup for you." What does it mean?

 

Dorian (aka Donald).