Would You Be Willing??

[Harleycat]

OK, I'm not starting this thread to start a flame war, just tossing a thought out there for discussion. Would you like to see the cruiselines do something like raise the price of the accessible cabins when originally booked and then drop the price to equal the going rate at that category once they receive some sort of documentation of need for that cabin? The documentation does not have to be something the specifies the disability, just something like "I, John Doe, MD certify that Mary Smith requires the use of an accessible cabin"

 

So, if an inside cabin normally goes for $500 pp, charge $1000 pp when an accessible cabin in that category is booked, then return the price to $500pp when they receive the paperwork. I ask the following questions:

 

Would this help alleviate AB's booking HC cabins? Not eliminate but alleviate.

 

Would you be willing to follow this process if it kept more HC cabins open for those who truly need them and allowed you more choices when booking without having to book 2 years out?

 

I know there would still be AB's who get their doctor to sign the paperwork just like they get the doctor to sign for a Parking Permit but it would make it a little more difficult for them.

 

Presently I don't need an accessible cabin but I do foresee the day when the surgeon can no longer fix my legs and I will.

 

Please note: If this turns into a flame war, I will ask to have the post removed. I'm only trying to see how far folks are willing to go in order to have a better chance of getting a HC cabin without having to book 2 years in advance.

[ndsumfun]

OK, I'm not starting this thread to start a flame war, just tossing a thought out there for discussion. Would you like to see the cruiselines do something like raise the price of the accessible cabins when originally booked and then drop the price to equal the going rate at that category once they receive some sort of documentation of need for that cabin? The documentation does not have to be something the specifies the disability, just something like "I, John Doe, MD certify that Mary Smith requires the use of an accessible cabin"

 

So, if an inside cabin normally goes for $500 pp, charge $1000 pp when an accessible cabin in that category is booked, then return the price to $500pp when they receive the paperwork. I ask the following questions:

 

Would this help alleviate AB's booking HC cabins? Not eliminate but alleviate.

 

Would you be willing to follow this process if it kept more HC cabins open for those who truly need them and allowed you more choices when booking without having to book 2 years out?

 

I know there would still be AB's who get their doctor to sign the paperwork just like they get the doctor to sign for a Parking Permit but it would make it a little more difficult for them.

 

Presently I don't need an accessible cabin but I do foresee the day when the surgeon can no longer fix my legs and I will.

 

Please note: If this turns into a flame war, I will ask to have the post removed. I'm only trying to see how far folks are willing to go in order to have a better chance of getting a HC cabin without having to book 2 years in advance.

 

I think that is a good idea but a better idea would be for the cruise lines to REQUIRE you provide PROOF to begin with in order to book an accessible cabin.

[Harleycat]

I think that is a good idea but a better idea would be for the cruise lines to REQUIRE you provide PROOF to begin with in order to book an accessible cabin.

 

Yes, that would be ideal but if someone who doesn't need the cabin thinks they are going to get hit in the pocketbook, it might make them think twice.

 

Thanks for responding!

[ndsumfun]

yep.......your right on that one!

 

your welcome. I just got off the phone with Carnival. Was asking about the most sought after wraparound balconies.....

 

None of them are wc accessible! why does that not surprise me???

 

Also, I asked if maybe the regular balconies were bigger for wc but he said no they were same size. rooms same size also just larger doorways & grab bars.

 

I have already written the VP of Carnival a letter in regards to their layouts. We are so used to the HUGE rooms provided by Royal that we were shocked when we walked into our "cracker box" on the Destiny. I will definitely have to get an awesome deal to cruise with them again.

[cindersue]

My only issue with raising the price of the HC cabin is that Newbe Passengers who NEED HC cabins mite not understand the rates and therefore not book a cruise. I think passengers booking an HC cabin should be able to provide some proof of needing a HC cabin with their first payment. And the Cruiselines should not just issue HC cabins to ABs when they don't request them either such as with category upgrades or unassigned rooms. I think it's ridicules that ABs get booked in HC cabins when they don't need them or even ask for them and folks who DO get told there are none available when there Are HC cabins open on the cruise...

[Moeve]

That is pronbably not a good idea since that is a whole lot of extra work - and I cannot see cruiselines taking THAT hook.

[Harleycat]

My only issue with raising the price of the HC cabin is that Newbe Passengers who NEED HC cabins mite not understand the rates and therefore not book a cruise. I think passengers booking an HC cabin should be able to provide some proof of needing a HC cabin with their first payment. And the Cruiselines should not just issue HC cabins to ABs when they don't request them either such as with category upgrades or unassigned rooms. I think it's ridicules that ABs get booked in HC cabins when they don't need them or even ask for them and folks who DO get told there are none available when there Are HC cabins open on the cruise...

 

True but what I was thinking is that the cruiseline could explain at the time of booking that if proof is not provided with their first payment (or second or final) that the extra charges (it doesn't have to be double) would apply.

 

I think this would weed out the AB's who book it thinking "Oh Dr. Doe is my pal, he'll sign the form" only to find out that Dr. Doe is not willing to do that and now they either have to pay more or move to another cabin.

 

I don't know what the best solution would be. No matter what, it's more work but is it any more work that trying to plan a vacation so far ahead just to get the cabin you need?

[Queenie2]

I think the "would you be willing" question is a moot point (unless of course it's just for discussions sake) because what you are describing would not be allowable under the ADA . And although we don't have ADAAG yet for cruise ships, the Supreme Court has rulled that cruise ships do fall under the ADA in the broadest sense. And since we are moving (albeit PAINFULLY SLOW if anyone from the access board is reading this) in the direction to adopt some sort of ADAAG for cruise ships, I don't think the cruise lines are willing to make any changes at this time that may be in violation of future laws (which is why they are moving away from MD notes and saying self declaration of a dis in writing from the individual is adequate). I'm not sure how that will hold up to a legal challenge, but it is definitely the safer and more conservative route. I think they are waiting to see where the chips fall before they implement any changes. And again, it will depend on how the ADAAG reads; however the latest version out of approval says self declaration is enough and prohibits cruise lines from requiring MD letters.

 

I know, I'm boring:)

 

Bottom line is cruise lines will have to follow the law, and we don't know what that will be.

 

But I do have to applaud you for your creative thinking.

 

Candy

[Harleycat]

That is pronbably not a good idea since that is a whole lot of extra work - and I cannot see cruiselines taking THAT hook.

 

Yes, it is a lot of work and I can't see them taking the hook. I was just trying to get some ideas on how to put a stop to AB's taking HC cabins.

 

I don't know how much additional work it would be for us since most of us see a dr. regularly. I know my docs would not have an issue with providing the paperwork but I guess some would.

[Oceanwench]

I was going to jump on and say it probably wouldn't be legal under ADA guidelines, when they are determined as far as cruise ships go.

Looks like Candy beat me to it!

 

I agree -- that was very creative thinking! :)

 

I wish there were a simple way the cruise lines could determine if pax really need the HC cabins, or if they're just unscrupulous AB people who feel entitled to more space.

[Harleycat]

I think the "would you be willing" question is a moot point (unless of course it's just for discussions sake) because what you are describing would not be allowable under the ADA . And although we don't have ADAAG yet for cruise ships, the Supreme Court has rulled that cruise ships do fall under the ADA in the broadest sense. And since we are moving (albeit PAINFULLY SLOW if anyone from the access board is reading this) in the direction to adopt some sort of ADAAG for cruise ships, I don't think the cruise lines are willing to make any changes at this time that may be in violation of future laws (which is why they are moving away from MD notes and saying self declaration of a dis in writing from the individual is adequate). I'm not sure how that will hold up to a legal challenge, but it is definitely the safer and more conservative route. I think they are waiting to see where the chips fall before they implement any changes. And again, it will depend on how the ADAAG reads; however the latest version out of approval says self declaration is enough and prohibits cruise lines from requiring MD letters.

 

I know, I'm boring:)

 

Bottom line is cruise lines will have to follow the law, and we don't know what that will be.

 

But I do have to applaud you for your creative thinking.

 

Candy

 

No, not boring just looking at the issue from another angle. I realize that something like this will probably never come to pass and was just a thought on my part but I was interested to see if some would be willing to do it just to ensure a better chance of getting an accessible cabin.

 

In an ideal world, something like this would not be necessary and people who need an accessible cabin would not have to plan so far in advance. It's unfortunate that some people can be so insensitive to others as to take away these cabins but, as you all know, there are so many "me" people around that it does happen. If these people knew that doing so might hit them in the pocketbook, they may think twice before doing it.

 

Thanks for your reply and input!

[Harleycat]

I was going to jump on and say it probably wouldn't be legal under ADA guidelines, when they are determined as far as cruise ships go.

Looks like Candy beat me to it!

 

I agree -- that was very creative thinking! :)

 

I wish there were a simple way the cruise lines could determine if pax really need the HC cabins, or if they're just unscrupulous AB people who feel entitled to more space.

 

I, too, wish there were a simple way but it doesn't seem like it.

 

Thanks for your reply and input!

[leoandhugh]

I come out on the same place as Candy; I think the cruise lines are waiting to see what happens in Congress, but based on recent moves on their part to request some self-identification by us who are handicapped I believe they already sense some more stringent requirements coming their way.:) :)

I would personally be opposed to charging extra even though ultimately refunded; we have fought long and hard for the recognition of equality under the law. It would appear to me to be a step backward from equality even if it were to make ABs think twice before booking

[Harleycat]

I come out on the same place as Candy; I think the cruise lines are waiting to see what happens in Congress, but based on recent moves on their part to request some self-identification by us who are handicapped I believe they already sense some more stringent requirements coming their way.:) :)

I would personally be opposed to charging extra even though ultimately refunded; we have fought long and hard for the recognition of equality under the law. It would appear to me to be a step backward from equality even if it were to make ABs think twice before booking

 

Good point and I understand where you are coming from. It would be ideal if people who needed accessible cabins did not have to go through any additional procedures or expense to get them but, from the posts I've read, it just doesn't happen.

 

I truly don't know what the answer is but I was just opening this approach up to discussion as one possible deterrent to people booking the cabins who don't actually need them.

 

Thanks for your response and input!

[KateDen]

Why don't cruise lines make all (or at least many) doors wider on new ships? My husband uses a mobility scooter which requires a wider door, but doesn't need the HC bathroom and I'm sure there are many others like him. We're willing to put up with the regular size room if we can just get the darn scooter in. Just having a 25" door would solve many problems in my opinion. And I do agree that there should be a doctor's note for all HC rooms.

 

Kate

[Queenie2]

Why don't cruise lines make all (or at least many) doors wider on new ships? My husband uses a mobility scooter which requires a wider door, but doesn't need the HC bathroom and I'm sure there are many others like him. We're willing to put up with the regular size room if we can just get the darn scooter in. Just having a 25" door would solve many problems in my opinion. And I do agree that there should be a doctor's note for all HC rooms.

 

Kate

 

WEll, I've been campaigning for that for years. In fact, I'm known at some cruise lines as Candy "wide doorway" Harrington. Seriously though the response I've received is that they can't do that withut loosing cabins, and they don't want to loose cabins. I think it could be done thugh -- you just need to get somebody well versed in universal design to draw up the plans. But shipbuilders are slow to change:) I did put it in my comments to the access board, but I don't think they even considered it.

 

Candy

[Moeve]

The wide door issue is rather easy to explain - it is a space issue and that simply comes at a premium at sea. Making all doors wider would simply mean less cabins and remember the cruiseline are in BUSINESS - so more cabins more money!!! To be honest no one can really blame them they have made cruising affordable for many PC persons too.

 

You know what would probably work very well - deny boarding without the proper paper work!!! Do you folks remember when RCCL / X clamped down on those senior & residential rates? ´Lots of cruisers only found out at the pier that they had rates they did not qualify for. Remember they were given the option of paying the days going rate (in some cases several thousands of $ more) or not cruising at all. Well that worked because it really did not take long for this problem to completely dissapear!!

 

In this case arrive without the proper documentation - one does not sail end of story!!

[Queenie2]

yeah Moeve I understand the space issue, but I do believe that the cabins could be redesigned without taking up any more of a "footprint" yet having wide doors.

 

As for the no paperwork no boarding, that wouldn't work either. The passenger can just write out a letter self declaring their need for an accessible cabin on the spot. Doctors certification, etc. would be illegeal under the ADA. And that appears to be the route the final regs are headed in and the direction the cruise lines are now taking (requiring self certification not a MD letter)

 

But wide doorways would solve a lot of problems. Hotels do it; in fact they are required to do it under the ADA.

 

Candy

[NorthernLite]

So it's ok for my state to require a yearly statement from me that I am still disabled (like they can't match my SS amount from my federal taxes to a SSDI claimant) but, say, my military retiree, incapacitated, card isn't proof I can use? Not that most disabled subsidized housing receipients can afford a cruise but they do have to prove disability to a goverment agency. We might need to amend the ADA or get this on the UN universal disabled treaty agreement.

 

Yes, I had to provide proof of disability to Norwegian on our first cruise. I get my doc to sign a bunch at one time and I date them as needed. Maybe require a specialist to sign...that worked to reduce HP plates in at least one state. Keep at it Candy. Sue

[Moeve]

Candy if it could be done like that would you aproof an MD letter?

[Harleycat]

So it's ok for my state to require a yearly statement from me that I am still disabled (like they can't match my SS amount from my federal taxes to a SSDI claimant) but, say, my military retiree, incapacitated, card isn't proof I can use? Not that most disabled subsidized housing receipients can afford a cruise but they do have to prove disability to a goverment agency. We might need to amend the ADA or get this on the UN universal disabled treaty agreement.

 

Yes, I had to provide proof of disability to Norwegian on our first cruise. I get my doc to sign a bunch at one time and I date them as needed. Maybe require a specialist to sign...that worked to reduce HP plates in at least one state. Keep at it Candy. Sue

 

That's actually kind of my point. We have to submit proof now for so many things and the reason for that proof is so that people who are not entitled to things like parking permits can't get them, why not in other situations such as this.

 

Right now I'm in the process of renewing my NYC handicapped placard. This is not a hang tag but allows me to park in many areas of NYC that are usually not available for private vehicles. You renew it once a year but every second year you have to go through the entire approval process. First your doctor must sign a form, then you submit the forms along with copies of your license and registration(s) (these permits are specific to you vehicle), then I have to submit proof that I work in the city (since I live on Long Island) and once I get all that and it's all correct, they schedule an appointment with one of the Department of Health doctors.

 

I always have a problem because they won't let you renew if your registration is due to expire within 60 days so I always have to go to DMV and renew it early. What really gets me, besides the need for the physical, is that the doctor they send you to is an allergist. She's the one that determines if my orthopedic condition qualifies. I guess 7 surgeries in 14 years is not enough for them.

 

But I go through it all because I need the permit in order to drive to work. It's a hassle but it also limits how many permits they issue leaving more spots available to park in.

 

Self certifying would be great but would not stop someone who really wants the cabin despite not needing it. There is no magic bullet that would ensure that only people who need the cabins are able to book them. If the ADA says they cannot ask for medical certification, I just don't see it stopping at all. AB's will continue to book these cabins and they will not be available when we truly need them.

[Travelitis]

There is such a low percentage of accessible cabins, and I understand that it's a space issue among other things. We booked our 1/09 cruise a couple of weeks ago, and we got the last accessible inside for our son who has to take a scooter. I didn't want to take one of these, but his condition fluctuates rapidly, and he could be mobile throughout the cruise or could be totally bound to the chair. We won't know until we're there. My point is that it could well look like we're cheating and getting that cabin, when that's not the case at all.

 

Most TA's don't cheat, but some encourage it. A TA told me he could book us in an accessible cabin to get more space, and if someone really needed it then we'd be reassigned. I passed.

[cruiseveteran]

I've been reading through this post and agree on both sides of the issue. Yes, cruise lines should absolutely require medical certification of a disability and state what accommodations are needed. Some disabilities do not require a wide-door, roll-in shower room. Does a blind person or a hearing impaired person need the wide door......not for me to say no, but I would not think so. I've been on ships that give handicap accessible cabins to the wrong people and the people really needing them go without. (My husband is an amputee and I have an artificial knee and hip and we both have wheelchairs/scooters). It is very difficult to stand on one leg and take a shower, especially when a ship is rocking and rolling.

 

My husband and I were victims of this practice, plus also upping the price of the cruise because HC cabins were only in certain categories. When they advertise "best available cabin at so & so price, then the best available HC cabin should be included.

 

We filed a complaint with the ADA in Washington D.C. and it went to a hearing and the cruise line involved couldn't jump through hoops fast enough to try and explain themselves. The cruise line sent us on an all expense paid cruise of our choice, plus the ADA made the cruise line do training to their personnel about HC requirements. The ADA made it very clear what was to be done.

 

I know that you are wondering which cruise line it was, but I would rather keep that to myself. I don't want to single out this cruise line because all the cruise lines need a wake up call on HC cabin booking practices. I have never been on a cruise (32 cruises as of now) that I've seen a HC cabin go empty. Money is made on these cabins, it is not like they sit empty.

 

If more HC cruisers would file complaints with the ADA in Washington, D.C. (I know there is some paperwork involved) the problems with bookings and pricing would be a top concern for all the cruise lines and they would start pay attention!

 

Thanks for reading my post and I hope this encourages people to take up this problem with the ADA directly.

 

Susan

[Moeve]

Susan I hope you have also notice dthat we are getting more and more positive reports from people who have experienced problems in the passed but who are now getting those cabins even when not booking the day bookings open.

 

It is a sign things are getting better - ok the system is not perfect but a100% garantee will never be possible.

 

HOWEVER I beg to differ when you say blind people don't require such cabins - THAT is neither your nor my decision because if a blind person feels safer having a shower he / she need not step into or would prefer sit in because of a perhaps rolling ship then such a cabin is a legitmate request. Remember these cabins are not Wheel chair cabins but cabins for Physically Challenged passengers and you must agree being blind is a physical challange.

 

I apologize if I have stepped on your toes but don't see anything good coming from us debating which phyical challange should be eligable and which should not - since ther is no way to generalize just how challanging each persons debilitation is for them.

[cruiseveteran]

Moeve - no you have not stepped on my toes about using a disability as blindness for an example. Each disability is has its own needs and requirements for safe travel, the point I'm really trying to make is the correct match for the disabled traveler to the correct accessible cabin is the key here. We have come along way in the cruise industry recognizing our needs, but we have a long way to go.

 

Some people with disabilities have the means to travel quite frequently and I hope not only the cruise industry recognizes this fact, but other travel industry services.

 

I would love to see the day that an "accessible cab" was in the cab line at the airport ready to take me where I was going rather than having to always make advanced arrangements! I love New York buses, every bus is accessible! I love going to Las Vegas where everything is accessible regardless if it is needed or not.......that is my ideal world!