Two-class System on Ships?

[Druke I]

Sailed twice on the old Oriana, first time when she was a two-class ship (and we were in 1st), and second time, on a holiday cruise, where she sailed as a one class ship (we were in the tourist [2nd] class section), and I am surprised to say that I preferred it the 1st time.

She was a lovely ship in her day.

Michael

[sail7seas]

We only received the strawberries sporadically. Some cruises we had them, some we did not. We sometimes had a dish of homemade chocoates....other cruises we didn't get them. It has been a long time since we have seen either.

[Krazy Kruizers]

[b][font=Comic Sans MS][color=blue]AH yes, I had forgotten about the chcolate covered strawberries. Besides seeing them sometimes after dinner, we used to also get them upon embarkation. And sometimes we used to get a dish of lucious chocolates.[/color][/font][/b]
[b][font=Comic Sans MS][color=#0000ff][/color][/font][/b]

[jhannah]

[quote name='sail7seas']We only received the strawberries sporadically.[/QUOTE]Can you not order them? In the Princess suites you may order a tray every day of either canapes, chocolate covered strawberries, or other things. Nothing can beat those strawberries!

[gliles]

Be aware that exit row seats are the same width as the other seats so if you are more comfortable in a regular seat, that is because you are spilling over into the other seat!

[gizmo]

[quote name='jhannah']Can you not order them? In the Princess suites you may order a tray every day of either canapes, chocolate covered strawberries, or other things. Nothing can beat those strawberries![/QUOTE]
I guess you can order the strawberries if you want to pay for them. I doubt you could order the hand made chocolates.

This was a nice touch that I really miss.

[MandyGirl]

[color=darkorchid]gliles - They both still had extra room, but not nearly as much as I have on domestic carriers. When you have just an inch leftover on each side, that gets scary! :eek: I just figured Virgin Atlantic had narrower seats than AA, WN, CO, and HP (who I normally fly).[/color]

[color=darkorchid]I actually enjoy the exit rows for that very reason - means that NOBODY is spilling over onto my seat. :)[/color]

[LizB1]

When we sailed on the ss France in 1966 I thought she was a 3-Class ship...First, 2nd and Tourist Class. We also sailed on the Rotterdam V and ss Maasdam when they were 2-Class ships going Transatlantic. In all those sailings the 1st and 2nd Class had their own dining rooms and lounges...same on the Rotterdam and Maasdam...and Tourist Class had their own dining room and lounges. As mentioned the stairways led to one area or the other for each class. On the Rotterdam V the 1st Class Dining Room was the Odyssey and the Tourist Class dining room was LaFontaine.

Have also sailed on the QE2 which still, to me, is a "class" ship depending on type of cabin booked you have to eat in a particular restaurant. We decided we wanted the Princess Grill instead of the Queen's Grill so booked a cabin for that "class".

When the HAL ships gave up the Transatlantic run there was no distinction between cabins...everyone ate in either dining room and shared all the lounges. To my knowledge the Suite folks did not have any special amenities except a larger cabin. Someone will correct me if I am wrong, I'm sure. As far as I am aware these special amenities did not start until the mid-90's?? I do not remember them on our 35-day ms Statendam cruise to Europe in '93.

[kryos]

[quote name='merryecho']Should there be a luxury class on ships? Should everyone be able to use the first class toilet on airplanes?[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=Red]Actually, no one can prohibit you from using the lavatory facilities in first class. If there is a long line in coach, and you really "gotta go," you have just as much right to use the facilities in first. The flight attendants are just instructed to "discourage" it. They can't forbid it.

Blue skies ...

--rita[/COLOR]

[sail7seas]

Liz.....

I think it likely the extra amenities as they exist today, began with the advent of the Statendam class ships. We sailed in an "S" on Statendam during her Inaugural Season and we had almost all of the 'extras' we now have in an "S". There, of course, was no Neptune Lounge.

[RevNeal]

[QUOTE]Be aware that exit row seats are the same width as the other seats so if you are more comfortable in a regular seat, that is because you are spilling over into the other seat![/QUOTE]

Not at all.

Firstly, the sides of those exit row seats are HARD and flush to the arm rest top. On regular row seats there are TWO inches of space open underneath the dividing armrest, HALF of which is yours. That's an inch you can spill into and NOT be intruding on someone else's seat. When you're a guy who, at [i]ideal[/i] weight, would weigh 190 pounds and, due to bone structure, would have a waist of 38 inches, that extra little room may not sound like much but it IS a lot.

Secondly, if your sitting next to your DH/DW it's often nice to lift that arm rest and enjoy sitting a little closer to each other. You can't do this in the exit row seats.

Thirdly, if you're lucky enough to have no one in the center seat, then you and the person across from you in the other seat have LOTS of room which you cannot fully appreciate in the exit row seat.

Fourthly, if you're in an aisle seat there's nobody on at least one side of you for you to bother spilling over onto.

Fifthly, those seats are inhumanely small for someone with a Endomorphic body type. While I can sit in them, with the arm rest down, buckle the buckle (and even have some extra belt to pull tight), and not touch the person sitting next to me, it is nevertheless nicer (more comfortable) to have a little extra room and NOT feel the sides of you legs and your hips pressing against the solid plastic of the arm rests, where they get warm and uncomfortable.

[sail7seas]

Oh my Goodness, Revl.......that was descriptive!!! :eek:

[jcike1980]

If Someone Wants A Suite Great! If Someone Wants A Lower Cat. Great!

[dakrewser]

[quote name='revneal']Firstly... Secondly... Thirdly... Fourthly... Fifthly...
...those seats are inhumanely small for someone with a Endomorphic body type. While I can sit in them, with the arm rest down, buckle the buckle (and even have some extra belt to pull tight), and not touch the person sitting next to me, it is nevertheless nicer (more comfortable) to have a little extra room and NOT feel the sides of you legs and your hips pressing against the solid plastic of the arm rests, where they get warm and uncomfortable.[/QUOTE]
Hear! Hear!! Or, perhaps more appropriate, Amen, brother!

:)

[Tvisitor]

[size=3]I don’t think the categories I sail in are subsidizing the amenities afforded to the suite pax, and I do think the suite pax should get what they pay for, not less. However, I sense as much pressure from the bulk of would-be suite pax to get "deals" as I see from everyone else, and I suspect that the cuts in perks are related to market pressure. Personally, I was shocked to hear how many people on this board say they have been upgraded to full suites for no additional money, or very little additional money. Please don’t get me wrong. I am happy for all the people who got the upgrades. Never-the-less, if I try to look at it from the cruise-line point of view, that means all those suites did not sell at the prices they were intended to command, and I can see where that state of facts would require the cruise-line to make some adjustments. [/size]

[cactuslady]

What a wonderful deal we have, where we can "pretend" to be upper or lower class by the mere application (or withholding) of a little dough. If we had a true class system, you wouldn't be [I]able [/I] to book a suite unless (besides having the proper formal attire) you had the right parents, were born in the right place, were the right color, were the right gender, belonged to the right political party, had an acceptable marital status, and so on.

I'm so happy that most or all of those class restrictions have stayed in other times and other places, so I could get an education, get a good job, do better than my parents did, and even travel without a husband when none was available. :D

(I learned on my last trip that when they had the dedication ceremony for the Statute of Liberty, they would not allow women -- not even those who had donated or the one who composed that wonderful poem about "Bring me your tired, your poor . . " -- on the island! :eek: )

[dakrewser]

[quote name='cactuslady'](I learned on my last trip that when they had the dedication ceremony for the Statute of Liberty, they would not allow women -- not even those who had donated or the one who composed that wonderful poem about "Bring me your tired, your poor . . " -- on the island! :eek: )[/QUOTE]
Where did you hear this????:confused:

[cactuslady]

[quote name='dakrewser']Where did you hear this????:confused:[/QUOTE]
I heard it from the National Park Service ranger guides, and on the self-guided audio tour, as part of the history talk about the construction of the statue and the 1886 dedication. (The government wouldn't lie to me, would it? :rolleyes: ) We went to visit the Statue of Liberty a week ago, and were lucky to get in, as it was closed to visitors from 9/11/01 to 8/3/04.

Other than the shocker about the dedication ceremony, the visit was a grand pilgrimage for me. I passed the statue when coming in to the U.S. as an immigrant child, and had to wait 48 years to see it up close. The only other time I visited New York was in the 1970s, and I had the misfortune of getting to Battery Park just as they announced that the statue was closed because of a protest demonstration. :( So I was delighted to finally get there. We joined thousands of visitors of all nationalities and descriptions. :D

[dakrewser]

[quote name='cactuslady']I heard it from the National Park Service ranger guides, and on the self-guided audio tour, as part of the history talk about the construction of the statue and the 1886 dedication. [/QUOTE]
Well, I ask because you mention that "...not even those who had donated or the one who composed that wonderful poem about 'Bring me your tired, your poor . . ' " but Emma Lazurus' poem wasn't added to the statue until 20 years after the dedication, so if the tour guide mentioned this perhaps they were making up the rest, also.

[Sailure]

I think sometimes some people save up for a long time to be able to afford ALL the luxuries and amenities offered for the high price.

On flights longer than 2 hours, I fly first class, I don't like being cramped in a little seat. I have been relegated too many times to less than my 18 inches because someone who was 300 lbs. pushed into MY space for too long. I'll pay for my comfort and service.

I enjoy cruising and I enjoy cruising first class. I can afford it so I do it. Now, I know many people who drive Caddies and Lincolns and Lexus' because they like the comfort. I prefer my little Rav4 and I don't begrudge the Lexus owner his luxury.:)

I enjoy sailing with Celebrity and Costa because they have butler service for their suite pax. I like that. HAL doesn't have that, so I'll "rough" it with a concierge and a good steward.

I don't think class has much to do with it so much as people paying for the service they want and want to pay for.

That's one of the things I love about America...we can usually get what we want to pay for. Why should those who don't want to pay for a certain class of service feel they've been slighted if they're not given that service. We all have our priorities. Some people want to lease Lexus' and have that as a sign of something or other and others want to pay for a suite or first class. It all works out.

Maybe someday I'll win the lottery and have it all!;)

[Sailure]

[quote name='Tvisitor'][size=3] Personally, I was shocked to hear how many people on this board say they have been upgraded to full suites for no additional money, or very little additional money. [/size][/QUOTE]
[color=darkgreen]Don't believe everything you read on these boards[/color].:)

[Jacqueline]

Here's a perspective- there is no way that there is ever going to be a class system instituted as today as whoever wants to pay a premium can sail in a suite ! This isnt apartheid or the american south in the 1950's !
You can live in any neighborhood, come from any social class be of any race or religion and book a suite. Or you can book an inside !
BTW Princess did institute the suite with no perks concept for a few years but is moving back to providing more amentites.
In one year I sailed in both an OS over over 700sp ft and an inside with 2 kids that was about 170sq ft. My self esteem was not affected in either case. On fact the steward on X made us feel pretty special in our little "cabinette".

[sail7seas]

[size=3][Quote]Personally, I was shocked to hear how many people on this board say they have been upgraded to full suites for no additional money, or very little additional money.[/Quote][/size]




[quote name='Sailure'][color=darkgreen]Don't believe everything you read on these boards[/color].:)[/QUOTE]

Thank you, Sailure. My thought exactly.

Sure, there may be some upgrades to Suites for no real money but I do not think there are all that many. We have been booking "S" Suites since Statendam's Inaugural and far more often than not, the "S" Suites are among the first to sell out.

Some upgrades? ------Yes
Many??? --------------No

[cactuslady]

[quote name='dakrewser']Well, I ask because you mention that "...not even those who had donated or the one who composed that wonderful poem about 'Bring me your tired, your poor . . ' " but Emma Lazurus' poem wasn't added to the statue until 20 years after the dedication, so if the tour guide mentioned this perhaps they were making up the rest, also.[/QUOTE]
I understand the poem was written in 1883. According to the Park Service and other sources, it was auctioned off to raise money to complete the pedestal for the statute -- [url]http://www.nps.gov/stli/plaque/index.html[/url]. True that it was not added to the statue until much later, after Lazarus had died. Not surprising, as few things are engraved on historical plaques right after they happen.

[dougnewmanatsea]

[quote name='LizB1']When we sailed on the ss France in 1966 I thought she was a 3-Class ship...First, 2nd and Tourist Class.[/QUOTE]FRANCE was a two-class ship - "Rive Droit"/"Right Bank" (first-class) and "Rive Gauche"/"Left Bank" (tourist). Her immediate predecessors had first, cabin, and tourist though.

In HAL's case, before WWII, HAL ships carried three classes - cabin, tourist, and third. After WWII, there were only two classes on HAL ships - first and tourist. On cruises there was only one class. My grandparents took their first cruise on NIEUW AMSTERDAM (II) in 1960 and although they were in the least expensive cabin (normally tourist class, and probably third class before the war) they dined with passengers no doubt staying in much more expensive cabins; as I recall one of their tablemates was a very high-level executive of General Motors. Food, service, etc. was all-first-class on cruises.

On many lines, after the war, there remained three classes, but they were now first, cabin, and tourist, as opposed to cabin/second/third or cabin/tourist/third (or cabin/second/"tourist third", or who knows what else).

When QUEEN MARY was built in 1936 her three classes were cabin, second, and third. This was changed to the customary postwar first, cabin, and tourist in her postwar refit. In the 1960s when QE2 was being planned for, there was a debate over whether three classes were necessary. Eventually it was decided that cabin class would not be necessary because of the improved standards in tourist class on the new ship (then called by the codename Q4). However some of QE2's early design was completed when they were still unsure, and so she does still have some features of a three-class ship then re-divided into a two class ship.

The last North Atlantic liners to be built with three classes were Italia's MICHELANGELO and RAFFAELLO of 1965, which had first, cabin, and tourist. They sailed what Italia liked to call the "Sunny Southern Route" from New York to the Med, and unlike the more northern route taken by Cunard, CGT (French Line), HAL, Norddeutscher Lloyd, etc., there was still a significant immigrant market on that route creating the theoretical need for a separate cabin and tourist classes. I would venture to say that many of the actual tourists in fact travelled cabin, not tourist.

Cunard kept the "class" terminology on QE2 until - if I recall correctly - 1994. Originally there were two theoretically separate and distinct classes, first and tourist. I say theoretically because I know at least one person who travelled tourist on QE2 and, upon being discovered in first-class areas, was told that he could in fact remain - but not be served any complimentary food or beverages!

At some point, they did away with separate public areas for the different classes though the "class" terminology continued until, I believe, 1994. At that point, the two classes were called first and, oddly, Transatlantic (as though the first-class people were not going across the Atlantic as well ;) ?) First-class comprised the Queens and Princess Grill restaurants as well as Columbia which was the regular first-class dining room. The Princess Grill was originally called the Grill Room and was an extra-charge restaurant for which any first-class passenger could pay a flat fee and dine in for the entire crossing. Later it became the Princess Grill, after the Queens Grill was added to accomodate the passengers in the new suites that were added to the ship in the 1970s. While nominally "first-class", the Grills probably should have been their own "class", though at that point Cunard really ought not to have been playing the "class" game anyhow.

In 1994 an odd system was created which essentially had four classes, though I believe the "class" terminology went the way of the dodo at that point. The name "deluxe" for the Caronia (formerly Columbia) dining room class sticks in my mind, but I'm at a loss for what Queens Grill, Princess Grill, and Mauretania (the former Transatlantic class) were called. At any rate that was extremely short-lived, and by 1996 the present system was in place, where the ship was essentially a one-class ship with cabin grades tied to one of four dining room categories: Queens Grill, Princess/Britannia Grill, Caronia, and Mauretania. At some point - probably 1996, when the present terminology was introduced - a lot of former tourist-class cabins became Caronia, and a lot of former Colubmia/Caronia cabins went to Princess Grill, thus shifting a lot of the cabins upward in grade and price. So essentially the two Grill categories became first class, while Caronia and Mauretania became the equivalent of tourist.

On QUEEN MARY 2 what would be the Caronia and Mauretania grades have been combined into the Britannia "class" which reinforces this. But again there is not a true class system, as only the dining room is segregated, with the exception of the Queens Grill Louge which is for Queens Grill passengers (there is also such a lounge on QE2, and at one time there was also a Princess Grill lounge).

Anyhow I'm now drifting into Cunard territory so I guess I'd better stop before someone moans that I ought to go and post this on the Cunard board ;) . But one more thing. It has been mentioned that a class system is not possible any longer because anyone can book any cabin (so long as they can afford it). So far as I know, this was pretty much always the case.

However, while a de facto class system could theoretically occur (on ships attracting passengers from a wide range of socioeconomic brackets) I do not forsee that it could return to the way it was in the age of the ocean liner, mainly for reasons of political corectness. It could happen again, but I doubt it would be so blatant. Even in the early 1960s this was clearly happening - consider how CGT actually had "Left Bank" and "Right Bank" instead of tourist and first. (I am reliably told that Left Bank was not only more fun, but that it was still quite a deluxe experience. This is hardly surprising: the first-class/Right Bank dining room was proclaimed by New York's leading restaurant critic at the time to be the finest French restaurant [i]in the world[/i]...)