Carnival Group v RCCL Group

[dak]

I'm just back from Oriana in the Med. Whilst talking to a few people and expressing concerns at the direction that Carnival UK seemed to be taking with Cunard and P&O I'm sure that you may be interested at the responses.

BTW, I thoroughly enjoyed the cruise, booked another and am as happy with Oriana as ever I was.

• My concerns were that the P&O market is not the Princess Grand Class of which 2 are on the way.
  
• There seems to be little chance of another Oriana or Aurora
  
• P&O and /or Cunard would benefit from a smaller ship.
  
• P&O seems to be moving downmarket

Reading between the lines of my discussions:

• P&O should not compete with Cunard, but should compete with RCCL. Competition with Celebrity is open.
  
• Cunard "Transatlantic" is a different product to Cunard "Cruising" - is the "Cunard Cruising" product now expected to compete with Celebrity? (unanswered)
  
• Another Oriana or Aurora is as likely as another QE2 (but wouldn't it be nice).
  
• The smaller ship requirement may be filled in the future by one of the R ships or by the new bigger Seabourn mould.
  
• P&O is not moving downmarket because they will not offer "climb-the funnel" or "go skating".
  
• Ocean Village is an entirely different product

In summary:

 

Looks like we may have Cunard Transatlantic on its own; Cunard Cruising competing with Celebrity, P&O dropping the Oriana/Aurora standard and retaining barges to compete with RCCL, and a potential future hope of a 30-40000 grt ship.

 

However, I am assured that they do listen to us!!

 

David

[calikak]

I enjoyed our sailing on an R-class ship (Tahitian Princess) and felt it was a good size, but she's not an ocean liner by any stretch of the imagination. The only thing she had in common with an ocean liner was her Titanic-inspired staircase, which led not to a dining room but to the purser's desk. I also think it's unrealistic to think that an R ship is going to be come available anytime soon, unless Carnival Corp. transfers one from Princess or another line, as these ships are highly coveted and Carnival Corp. will be competing with RCI, which wants them for Azamara.

 

If Cunard is going to compete with Celebrity, it's going to have a tough time, because Celebrity's prices are usually substantially lower. I think it would be smarter for Carnival Corp. to position Cunard to compete with Azamara instead. On paper, Azamara has a higher level of service, since all cabins get butler service. But, of all the Carnival brands, Cunard seems the one most likely to fit at that service level. My understanding is that HAL is the Carnival brand that competes with Celebrity, Princess being somewhere beneath that, and Carnival competing directly with RCCL? Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

[judy&steve]

I enjoyed our sailing on an R-class ship (Tahitian Princess) and felt it was a good size, but she's not an ocean liner by any stretch of the imagination. The only thing she had in common with an ocean liner was her Titanic-inspired staircase, which led not to a dining room but to the purser's desk. I also think it's unrealistic to think that an R ship is going to be come available anytime soon, unless Carnival Corp. transfers one from Princess or another line, as these ships are highly coveted and Carnival Corp. will be competing with RCI, which wants them for Azamara.

 

If Cunard is going to compete with Celebrity, it's going to have a tough time, because Celebrity's prices are usually substantially lower. I think it would be smarter for Carnival Corp. to position Cunard to compete with Azamara instead. On paper, Azamara has a higher level of service, since all cabins get butler service. But, of all the Carnival brands, Cunard seems the one most likely to fit at that service level. My understanding is that HAL is the Carnival brand that competes with Celebrity, Princess being somewhere beneath that, and Carnival competing directly with RCCL? Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

I have been on several RCI cruises including a Transatlantic crossing. Also, we sailed once on Celebrity Mercury. Next to our Carnival Destiny cruise, the Mercury was the worst we had ever experienced. I don't think (with my limited experience on Celebrity and Cunard, I would be considered an expert, but it would have to be one heck of a great deal to get me on another Celebrity ship -- or Azamara, for that matter. I am very happy with the level of service on Cunard.

--Judy

[calikak]

I have been on several RCI cruises including a Transatlantic crossing. Also, we sailed once on Celebrity Mercury. Next to our Carnival Destiny cruise, the Mercury was the worst we had ever experienced. I don't think (with my limited experience on Celebrity and Cunard, I would be considered an expert, but it would have to be one heck of a great deal to get me on another Celebrity ship -- or Azamara, for that matter. I am very happy with the level of service on Cunard.

--Judy

 

I have heard nothing but awful things about the Mercury too. I'm not suggesting Celebrity and Cunard are/should be considered the same level--I'm just saying that if Carnival is trying to position Cunard to be on the same level as Celebrity, then they're going to have to cut the prices to compete with Celebrity. I don't think that would be a good choice, though, since it would almost inevitably lead to a reduction in service levels...which would presumably land Cunard in the Celebrity Mercury quality range.

[ocngypz]

Actually, it's the other way around.. Celebrity pretending to be at Cunard's level.. while offering lower prices. They are not very close. And I've sailed both Cunard and Celebrity quite often.

 

As for Celebrity's Azamara brand...... room stewards in morning suits. Only the suites have real butlers.... and many of them are not that adept in their duties.

[dougnewmanatsea]

Back in the day, P&O cruises were effectively "two class" like Cunard, maybe more so. CANBERRA and ORIANA (I) had dining rooms assigned by cabin and the "tourist" cabins (over 60% of capacity) had no private facilities. We are only talking about ten years ago here (in the case of CANBERRA; ORIANA was retired earlier of course)! So I am not sure one can say the general trend is downscale. Indeed, in light of the CANBERRA tradition, one could make an argument for the upscale ORIANA and AURORA being seen as anomalies. And yes, these two ships are lovely but like QM2 they are expensive one-offs (contrary to popular belief, they are not sisters) that are not going to be repeated. The future is in GRAND-class ships for P&O and Vista-class ships for Cunard. AURORA was probably the last "real" P&O ship ever.

 

I do not see an "R" ship going to P&O. I would love to see them go to Cunard but that is not going to happen either, though it was certainly considered at one point. It seems they will stay with Princess at least for the foreseeable future - though I know Oceania would love to buy one or two (or the Azamara ships, for that matter).

 

As for Carnival vs RCCL, there is no RCCL product that is anything like Cunard. Neither Celebrity or Azamara are similar. Celebrity is a competitor of HAL and Princess, not Cunard, while Azamara is not aimed at a Carnival brand at all but rather is an imitation of Oceania.

[eroller]

Actually, it's the other way around.. Celebrity pretending to be at Cunard's level.. while offering lower prices. They are not very close. And I've sailed both Cunard and Celebrity quite often.

 

 

 

I disagree. I've also sailed on Cunard and Celebrity multiple times. I find the lines to be very much on par with each other. Personally I find the food and service slightly better on Celebrity (in general). Of course I'm not talking about the Grills on Cunard, just standard accommodations. I agree Celebrity is less expensive, and frankly I find Cunard overpriced but I still love the product. The biggest difference between the two lines are probably the passengers, with Cunard passengers being more International and more formal.

 

Ernie

[ocngypz]

I disagree. I've also sailed on Cunard and Celebrity multiple times. I find the lines to be very much on par with each other. Personally I find the food and service slightly better on Celebrity (in general). Of course I'm not talking about the Grills on Cunard, just standard accommodations. I agree Celebrity is less expensive, and frankly I find Cunard overpriced but I still love the product. The biggest difference between the two lines are probably the passengers, with Cunard passengers being more International and more formal.

 

Ernie

 

 

Have you sailed either in the past couple of months?

[eroller]

Have you sailed either in the past couple of months?

 

 

What, my opinion only counts if I sailed both lines in the last couple months? I don't think so. I've sailed on both lines enough over the years to know the differences between them. I sailed on Century in March and it was a great experience. In fact all my Celebrity cruises have been great. Cunard has been more inconsistent from my personal experience. I will be sailing on QV in January so that should give me recent enough experience to judge the product.

 

Ernie

[3rdGenCunarder]

Have you sailed either in the past couple of months?

 

Have you noticed or heard of changes in quality in either line in recent months?

 

Kathy