HOW GOOD ARE THE ART AUCTIONS FOR INVESTING?

[jmunro]

I just got back from a Vision of the Seas cruise and bought several hundred dollars worth of art. The auctioneers from Park West at Sea says that all of the work is much more valuable than it was auctioned at. Has anyone had any luck with this? If so please share your experiences!

[winewanderer]

My husband and I own an art gallery. We would never buy art as an investment. The reason? Art is only worth what it sells for.

 

Additionally, the art on board ships is basically mass produced. Unless it is an original piece of art it will not increase in value much. And if it isn't at the very least signed and numbered, it's worthless. Best to buy things because you enjoy looking at them.

 

2/2004 Carnival Legend/Exotic Western Carribean

4/2003 HAL Statendam/Sea of Cortez

9/2002 CarnivalHoliday/Western Caribbean

4/2001 Carnival/Western Caribbean

4/2000 Carnival Paradise/Southern Caribbean

5/1999 RCCL/Alaska

4/1998 NCL/Pacific Coastal

10/1997 Carnival/Mexican Riviera

11/1995 Carnival Holiday/4 day Baja Mexico

6/1992 RCCL Viking Serenade/4 day Baja Mexico

6/1981 Pacific Princess/Pacific Coastal

 

[birdyhunter]

Thanks for the info. I always wondered about the art auction. I had feeling it wasn't a good deal and mow I know it.

 

RCL Adventure of the Seas July 4, 2004

 

<applet code="countdown.class" CODEBASE="http://*************/java-sys" width="203" height="25">

<param name="font" value="lcdb0">

<param name="year" value="2004">

<param name="month" value="7">

<param name="day" value="4"

<param name="hour" value="22">

</applet>

 

Carnival Destiny 7/01

Carnival Pride 7/02

 

[superjerryw]

It the art is worth so much more money why don't they sell it at that price to make greater profits? These people are in business to make money. If they sell you something for $200 and say it is really worth $800, why didn't they sell it to someone for $800. Art is sort of like jewelry. The appraised value is greatly inflated and had no relationship to the real value. A diamond appraised for $10,000 will only fetch about $2,000 if you offer it for sale to a diamond dealer.

 

<applet code="countdown.class" CODEBASE="http://*************/java-sys" width="203" height="25">

<param name="font" value="lcdb0">

<param name="year" value=2004>

<param name="month" value=03>

<param name="day" value=19>

<param name="hour" value=17>

</applet>

 

Donuts, is there anything they can't do....

[bassetdaddy]

Just an FYI news article...

 

 

Cruise ships are becoming floating galleries, with the champagne flowing. Prospects of getting a shipboard deal on a big-name work or a simple seascape to hang over your sofa is seductive.

 

But be on guard: With art auctions on cruise ships increasing, so are the opportunities for voyagers to overpay.

 

"This is not a serious art auction, not an investment opportunity," says veteran appraiser Bernard Ewell, who verifies the authenticity of Salvador Dali prints sold by Park West Gallery on dozens of cruises. Bargains aren't guaranteed.

 

"It is buyer beware," adds Bruce Hochman, director of the Dali Gallery in Pacific Palisades, California, who observed an auction on a Carnival cruise to Mexico. "There was this great urgency. The idea that it is a great buy, get it now." A Dali print his gallery sells for $250 was described as being appraised for $6,500 and went for about $2,000.

 

It is hard to be cautious at a cruise-ship sale, unless you simply don't attend. The champagne is flowing and you are in a captive environment. You are relaxed. It is a party atmosphere with an air of excitement about it. But the sale itself is like those one-of-a-kind Persian rug sales at the local Holiday Inn.

 

Kitty Yancey of USA TODAY conducted a survey and more than half stated they didn't buy because prices were too high. The auctioneers do some educating along with the selling, so half of the survey respondent's were satisfied with their purchases and looked at them as "souvenirs from our trip".

 

To avoid feeling framed after an auction, experts offer these tips:

 

*Read the fine print. Your winning bid is just the beginning. You will also pay a "premium" to the auction house. Princess Cruises tacks on 10%; auction gian Park West Gallery charges 12 1/2% to 15%.

 

*Framing and Shipping Charges. This can add hundreds to the bottom line.

 

*Don't be misled by auctioneers who declare that pieces are appraised at a figure higher than what you could sell them for back home. Don't depend on the person who is selling you your art to give you the market information. It is important to get a second opinion.

 

*Be satisfied that a price is fair. Sea sales are typically final, though there can be room for haggle. But once you are off that ship, mate, you are on your own. The cruise ships generally refer claims to the galleries themselves.Princess Cruises say that purchases on their ships aren't final. "We do realize that people on holiday can be impulsive and that can lead to buyer's remorse, " says Brian Langston-Carter, Princess executive. "We try to offer customer assistance".Regardless of policy, it is a big hassle once you are stateside, so put down the champagne glass and take a second look before you whip out that credit card.

 

*Don't be blinded by myths about art. Prices don't necessarily go up. Big names don't always have more value, especially if the market is flooded with their work. Certificates of authenticity can be worthless. There are a lot of fakes out there.

 

Art auctions are a popular activity on board and cruise lines get an undisclosed percentage of art-sale profits. The average seagoer shouldn't purchase art as an investment. Buy it only because you like it and want to live with it.

 

Remember, you also have the photo gallery to pass through onboard every night. Those pictures of you drinking the pretty drinks with the little umbrellas are works of art that you will cherish, for a while,and they are a whole lot cheaper!

 

http://www.montgomerycountynews.net/travel2-14-2001.htm

[arosenbe]

During our cruise on the Norwegian Sun we purchased a couple of Thomas Kinkade signed and numbered prints. We had seen similar prints locally for much more than the auction price so we felt resonably safe. Upon our return and receiving the prints we returned to local galleries and found the exact same prints selling locally for about 50-60% MORE than we paid.

 

That being said art is worth only what somebody is willing to pay. That amount will change, up or down depending on the success of the artist and the number of his/her pieces available.

 

Buy because you like it, will enjoy it and are getting a fair price.

 

Since that first auction we are very selective in what we purchase on board a cruise. We know the "selling" prices at home. We have purchased over twenty pieces since that first cruise. We will buy more on our next cruise.

 

A previous poster, negative on the at sea auctions, advised they own a gallery, Their view MAY therefore be somewhat biased in the same way large department stores dislike mail order sales of the same item for less.

 

Al Rosenberg

 

Adventure of the Seas 14 November 2004

Radiance of the Seas 03/04

Navigator of the Seas 10/03

Carnival Pride 03/03

Norwegian Sun 10/02

Dawn Princess 03/02

Sensation 09/01

Carnival Destiny 03/01

[frayedknot]

I purchased 7 pieces of (what I thought was well-chosen) art on 2 Carnival Elation cruises in 11-02 and 1-03.

I, too, got a Kinkade in a blind auction which was valued at 2 1/2 times what I paid.

I paid for all the appraisals, too.

 

When I tried to sell the works to galleries, private parties,etc. I had no luck whatsoever.

I finally found a trading assistant to sell them on ebay for me.

The ones that sold went for 50-85% less than the appraised values and a good deal less than what I paid.

With the shipping, appraisals and TA fees, I don't want to think how much $ I lost.

 

It was my fault, I was naive, a lttle greedy and therefore suseptible to the hype at the auctions. I didn't even drink the champagne offered, to keep my wits about me.

 

I see the same works on every cruise (7 since then) and I shudder with embarassment.I guess some of us learn the hard way, right?

 

Pam

 

lucky #13 Monarch of the Seas 4-2-04

#14 Monarch of the Seas 5-21-04

 

[KJW]

We go to the art auctions because we enjoy them. If we buy a piece ( and we dont always ) it is because we enjoy looking at it and can envision it hanging on a wall of our home. While some might spend their money on Bingo or horse races, we prefer to spend our time and money ( trust me, we dont spend big bucks )looking at and learning a bit about the various artists and their art work. Its really just another form of entertainment while on board. Besides at least when I get home I have something to hang up. Think how silly that used, non winner of a Bingo card would look in a frame.

[Rowtyd]

On my last cruise I attended the art auctions for fun but the unlimited free champagne keep me coming back. I thought of it as an extra comedy show. When the auctioneer claimed " these pieces will triple their selling price when the ship touches land" I almost lost it, champagne came out my nose. It was hilarious! Isn't it a bad business decision for a company to lose so much money selling their pieces below market price at sea? I would grab my art, get on land, and triple my profits. He was such a comedian. It was great entertainment, we all cheered when people "won" their auctions.

[Globaliser]

Looking at the prices of similar stuff ashore, it always seemed to me that the opening price for any piece is probably more or less OK to pay, but that the "auction" process is just a way for the company to artificially inflate the price that it gets for it. Although I've bought quite a number of low value pieces in these "auctions", most of the cruises I've been on are ones where there's been no interest in them and the auctioneer sells virtually nothing all cruise - so almost everything I've bought has been at the opening price.

 

The most dishonest thing about these sales is calling them "auctions". When the company has bought the entire print run (100, 250 or even 500 copies) of a particular image, and you're just buying one copy out of the company's stock, what is the point of pretending that there's only one for sale and that you have to compete with everyone else in the room for it? One thing I discovered quite early on is that if someone else buys an image for the opening price, you can often get the auctioneer to sell you another copy at the same price - and most of the time it doesn't require any persuasion to do it.

 

Of course, sometimes you get something that would normally start at eg $80 but for some reason (eg a slow cruise) the auctioneer will start it at $20 just to try to get some interest going. And then you pick it up for $35 because nobody's really interested even at that sort of price ...

[dougp26364]

On our last cruise we purchased a couple of Thomas Kincaid lithographs that are signed and numbered. The total purchase price was right at $450 without framing. It will cost me another $700 to frame both. This is still less than what the Thomas Kincaid galleries were asking.

 

We bought them to hang in our house and enjoy, not as an investment. Thomas Kincaid works are pretty much worthless as an investment since the market is flooded with them and he has other people highlight them for him. I have no doubt we would not get a return on our investment if I attempted to sell them.

 

These art auctions are not for investment purposes but they do sell some nice copies at sometimes good prices. It benefits you to know what you want and what it would sell for somewhere else before bidding. Otherwise, I'd just keep my hands in my pants and watch.

 

Future cruises

Monarch OTS - Mexico Baja 1/05

Explorer OTS - Eastern Caribbean 11/04

 

Past cruises

Vision OTS - Alaska 7/03

Legend OTS - Alaska 7/02

[MAXCAT]

MAXCAT says: If you like the piece of art...and are having a good time....have fun and bid.....

 

If you want an investment, buy land. or in my case, litter.

 

Explorer of the Sea - November 2001

Nordic Empress - November 2002

Serenade - October 9

Trip was great...now looking for another.....

[Erie Dave]

Remember what P.T. Barnum said "there is a sucker born every minute." Buy art because you like it. Remember, even at these "auctions" you are still paying retail, it may be a discounted price, but it is still retail. It isn't an investment, it is a purchase, the opportunities to re-sell the stuff are very limited. Have fun, buy what you like, and enjoy it when you get home.

Beware, you will see the same stuff on your next cruise selling for the same or lower price, be prepared.

Just how many prints did Peter Max make anyway LOL?

 

1999 Grandeur

2000 Dawn Princess

2001 Grandeur

2001 Majesty

2002 Radiance

2002 Radiance

2003 Conquest

2004 Adventure

 

 

[jmunro]

Thank you that is very informing

[jmunro]

I appreciate your input. I bought several pieces and now I can not seem to find any information on several of the pieces/artists such as Debra Dubac and Neil Farkas. I really liked them and am just wondering where I can get any information on them. Do you know of any websites?

[cruiserforlife]

You must understand that this is just another avenue of revenue for the cruiselines.I am always amazed at the "auction fever" on items that are mass produced.

 

We must have at least seven Thomas Kincaid galleries where I live so with a gizillion prints floating around,how will these every be "investments"?

 

Art is SO subjective and should only be purchased to display and enjoy.If it brings you happiness and brings back fond memories of a fantastic cruise,so be it.There are "some" deals to be has on cruiseship "auctions" but that would be the exception,not the rule.

 

"a bad day at sea is better than a great day at work and a lousy day at sea is still pretty damn good!"

[breal6]

jmunro.

i just went to www.askjeeves.com and typed in debra dubac and a whole bunch of sites came up about her halibut poster and the railroad picture to name a few. probably could do the same with farkas. hope this helps.

 

PROUD MEMBER OF THE PPS

 

Mariner 09/04 in

 

Jewel 11/04 in

 

Splendour 01/05 in

[jmunro]

Thanks I had already done that and really didn't get any more than that. Found one article where Farkas was mentioned but would have expected more.

[whughey]

We like Tarkay, not as an investment but framed, we like how they look. If you do a google search, you will see how many dealers sell them and you can compare the prices.

[Conandlibrarian]

My wife and I just came back from a cruise on the Explorer of the Seas. Whilst I was napping, my wife went out to the auction and bought $1400 in art. Upon waking and joining her, I found out what she had done. Not a huge deal, other than the fact that she bought art [by Mouly and Tarkay] which is comparatively worthless--I found a bunch of places that were selling s/n prints for a fraction of the price.

I cannot urge people strongly enough to stay away from these types of auctions. At best, they are scam artists. Saw two Chagall lithographs from the Verve Bible series. They wanted $6200 each for them. I could get the original periodical, with close to FIFTY lithographs for less than that! Doubtless the markup on their other stuff is almost as bad. Park West is not to be trusted. :mad: :eek:

[superdeal]

I recently returned from my first ever cruise on Explorer of the Seas and had a wonderful time! :)

Regarding the auctions being conducted by Park West Galleries, I would advise people to be very cautious. I am not an expert at appraising artwork, but I have a BFA in Art and am familiar with most known artists. My assessment of the pieces up for bidding is that most of them were prints or lithographs, and it was even unclear if many were signed by the artists (Peter Max, Dali, etc.). This auction was being conducted as though it was an amazing investment opportunity -- yet anyone can buy prints such as these at online stores, galleries, ebay, and so forth. I just sat in the back and observed other people getting caught up in the hype and bidding several thousand dollars for some pieces that I am highly skeptical are worth that much. PLEASE ... unless you are an experienced art collector and really know what you are doing, do not spend anything more that a few hundred dollars for any of the art on these cruise ship auctions.

And, if you are buying a print for $100 - $200, ask yourself: since when do you buy prints at an auction and pay the 15% premium to buy a print? After paying their charge for framing and shipping, what will the real final cost be?

Attending this auction was the only "negative" aspect of my cruise -- negative insomuch as I kind of felt bad for other folks who might have overpaid for their art purchases. Of course, all told people probably lost more money at the casino. ;)

There were several aspects of the Park West auction that were 'shady' and unlike what you'd expect at a normal art auction. My advice -- do like I did -- go and drink 2 or 3 free glasses of campaign, look at some nice prints, and if there's an artist you are interested in collecting then do some more research and be a lot more thoughtful before you make a significant investment.

[Alexis]

I just added this on to superdeals other post on page 1.

superdeal wrote:

There were several aspects of the Park West auction that were 'shady' and unlike what you'd expect at a normal art auction. My advice -- do like I did -- go and drink 2 or 3 free glasses of campaign, look at some nice prints, and if there's an artist you are interested in collecting then do some more research and be a lot more thoughtful before you make a significant investment.

*************************************************

 

 

This is all 100% true.

I saw that myself on a cruise several years ago. They held it in the Viking Crown lounge. There were very few people who showed up for it.

The bar was in the middle, and the bidders were seated on either side of it. Neither side could see each other from their seats. My husband and I were seated behind the few bidders on our side of the bar. They were really there to get the free drinks and did not participate at all.

A picture went up for bidding and a woman on the other side of the bar from us bid. The auctioneer looked at our side and announced that a higher bid had come from someone. He then proceeded to keep doing this. There was NO ONE BIDDING ON OUR SIDE. The poor lady on the other side of the bar was actually bidding against herself and never knew it. Of course she finally won the picture. She should have had it for the first bid. I could not believe what I saw happen.

I vowed never to get involved in that scam after seeing that happen.

__________________

[Lewdog]

You aren't buying art, you are buying posters.

 

Why not buy pieces from local artists?

 

You can then get an original, one-of-a-kind piece rather than a print and support a local artist who probably needs the money a lot more than an auction house selling prints.

 

I really question the use of Thomas Kincaid and the word art used together period.

[mstr824]

Anybody have any experience with buying autographed sports memorabilia (i.e. signed jerseys, pictures, etc.) from a Park West at sea auction?

 

They claim that the pieces come with a "certificate of authenticity", but are they really legitimate?

[Happy ks]

We attend the art auctions for entertainment purposes only, we've never bought a piece and doubt we ever will.

 

In regards to what Alexis saw happening, we've also noticed several times that there seem to be people in the audience who are actually Park West employees and not passengers. These people will start bidding, if the bidding isn't going well, the (what I presume to be) plant will "win" the bid, but the auctioneer does not take down the number of the bidder. We saw it happen several times. When a legitimate winner has bid, the auctioneer will pause and have their assistant take down the bidders number.

 

Watch carefully, from the back of the room, sometime. It is interesting to see what happens.

 

We love art, don't have a lot of it, but the pieces we do have were purchased because we loved them and wanted them in our homes. We have bought several pieces while on vacation, preferring to purchase local artists work from where we are travelling. It's interesting to note, sometimes we will spend $200 to frame a $25 print. We have the framing done to suit the print, not to match our house. The true investment, for us, is the joy we get from seeing the memories of our travels.