greykitty
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Posts posted by greykitty
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PG/Ponant had quite elaborate safety protocols devised - but, of course, the first ones out tend to pave the way for the rest both in what works, and what utterly fails.
https://en.calameo.com/read/000132423bdb3b0a1a579?authid=k4a19tLoX9rj
True enough no one knows about enforcement, especially by staff pretty much trained to try and meet every guest's requests with a smile and a yes - even on archival Regent forum postings I read stories of dress codes not being gently enforced, or the dreaded chair hogs round the pool with nary a word from crew....and Lord knows the CDC hasn't been overly impressed to date with any of the Big 3.
https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/pdf/No-Sail-Order-Cruise-Ships-Second-Extension_07_16_2020-p.pdf
Whether these early debacles for the industry's restart will be a true wake-up call - well, it can be hoped. I wouldn't think any of the cruise lines would deliberately choose to not only destroy their own reputations, but that of the industry, but that's pretty much where we might be these evening - just through humans not following 'the rules' - and I think we all see that for ourselves now, every day.
But there's often a wide chasm between protocol design and execution. Will any of the lines be able to make the jump perfectly? Or will human error appear again?
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I will say I've learned a lot from browsing various forums, including respecting the expertise of people who really understand the technical aspects of ships and what descriptions may really mean!
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Wonder if any other NCLH ships will join their NCL and Oceana sisters, if this article is accurate. Does this sound like cold lay up at all? Wonder if the 2Q earnings report will shed any light. Also wondering if the earnings report is being amended due to the weekend news.
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I keep trying to adhere to 'do as you would be done by' when considering any non-essential trips these days - even to the grocery store. If only I could 'sign a waiver' to take the risk of COVID and somehow isolate the risk to me alone....but I can't.
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Morning update - Hurtigruten halting expedition cruises.
My thought is, if a well known cruise line, knowing it was 'leading the way', and also knowing that it had everything to lose for the industry, as well as itself, suffers breakdown in procedures, what more would all lines have to establish to ensure against breakdowns. I hope that the analysis of 'what went wrong' is at least freely distributed to regulators and other cruise lines to learn from. To be sure, I suspect this isn't only a peculiar breakdown to Hurtigruten, not in view of all the other cruise news over the last few days. Question is, how to we set up processes to ensure success facing this very complex re-start issue?
"A preliminary evaluation shows a breakdown in several of our internal procedures," Chief Executive Daniel Skjeldam said in a statement.
"Our own failure, as well as the recent rise in infections internationally, has led us to halt all expedition cruises in Norwegian and international waters," he said.
And, aargh, just read that the PG ship that has confirmed COVID infections, "had been anchored off Bora Bora for two days for passengers to disembark and explore before the case was reported."
Again, perhaps one could argue anyone (passenger, crew, regulator, port) that were on an approved sailing took their own risks - but what of the innocent people of Bora Bora? I can only imagine that right now their government and port officials are hoping against hope that COVID doesn't appear, and if it does, won't be traced back to this ship.
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Per link, the Hurtigruten outbreak, and the line's actions, have become the subject of a police investigation.
https://www.marinelog.com/shipping/cruising/police-to-probe-hurtigruten-coronavirus-outbreak/
A key issue, if this is verified, to me appears the lack of notification.
Reportedly, on July 26 Hurtigruten was informed that a passenger tested positive for COVID-19 after traveling on the July 17-24 cruise. Hurtigruten received advice from FHI to notify the passengers on the second sailing of this, and investigators are thought likely to look into why this notification apparently was not made
To me, this appears to be of interest in anyone interested in any cruise line, or any eventual movement to another re-start for the industry.
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@sita, thanks for the head's up. Even more data for the regulators and cruise lines to absorb, as well as prospective passengers.
Even if all the passengers and crew 'signed up' for these risks (as well as ports or regulators that ok'd the sailings), I feel for the already no doubt overstressed healthcare infrastructure who may now need to deal with this.
Perhaps unpopular - but looks to me like the CDC was on the right track all along vis a vis risks involved in lifting a no sail order.
PS - perhaps some would use the word newbie derisively, but at least this one 'knows a hawk from a handsaw' at times.
Know a hawk from a handsaw
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I think 'newbie' is often used out in the world to indicate someone brand new to a given activity - generally used in good humor, like calling someone a padawan in a certain 'universe'; however, here it's often used to dismiss or denigrate people who aren't, oh, shall I say of a certain sycophantic mindset?
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Italy may be rethinking their authorization of cruise ships (and I wonder if the questioning happened within the last 48 hours); per AIDA web site.
"The concepts and certifications for the restart of the cruise have been successfully developed and confirmed with the competent authorities. Contrary to our expectations, a final formal release for the start of short trips from 5 August 2020 by the flag state of Italy is still pending.
Unfortunately, we have to cancel the planned short trips from AIDAperla and AIDAmar with departure dates between 5 and 12 August 2020. The guests affected by this will receive the relevant information directly."
Also, AIDA had issues with some of their crew testing positive. I think this was discussed already.
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For me, whenever a complaint is made about 'moving goal posts' or 'changing rules', I think way way back to 1973, when I took a course in scientific method at a Jesuit university. Definition that stuck with me since then:
a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
I've found that applying this method works pretty darn well in life in general. Maybe that's why I'm not surprised/annoyed as protocols evolve?
To stay on topic (LOL) the first European voyages are giving us data that helps us to test and modify protocols.
ETA - I was an English lit/Spanish lit double major....but at that point the Jesuits were serious that all undergrads took at least 9 hours of science-related courses, as well as 9 of philosophy. At the time, ugh...in hindsight, thank you, curriculum developers!
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Hurtigruten has been a good learning experience, I'd say, and maybe better early than with a ship visiting multiple international ports and passengers from, perhaps, all over the world.
Still awful to have happened, but hopefully we'll all learn from it.
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I was quarantined years ago, as an adult, for mumps. Now that was a quarantine - absolutely no stepping outside my house. No physical contact (and this was before contactless food deliveries), and I had to check daily with the county health department. I miss, they appear on my door step.
Compared to that, shelter in place has been a walk in the park. And thank goodness for Comcast! LOL
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I will say I was thinking I really really bet the Norwegian government and the Hurtigruten execs wish all their passengers had been plopped into a nice tight quarantine right off the ship - no trotting home possibly passing along infection to yet more people.
Anyone really doubt regulators and health & safety planning folks aren't taking another really hard look at disembarking procedures, with an eye toward mitigating any possible transmission of the virus by passengers?
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5 minutes ago, cruiseluv said:
The only way to achieve that with crew then its not allowing them to get off the ship
Umm, MSC apparently feels that's do-able. I mean, it's inhumane to most people, and certainly should be appalling to those cruisers who feel that the crew welcomes and treats them as 'family', but....and of course doesn't address the issue of all those passengers coming to the ship, who knows if they're infected, no doubt not wearing masks every minute of the day, and probably getting well within six feet of crew members.
With any luck, the idea of so treating crew is totally forbidden. How anyone could enjoy their trip knowing that the crew is trapped is hard for me to wrap my head around.
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7 minutes ago, howiefrommd said:
Please tell me this is a joke. Its been a long day lol
Umm, it'd be nice to believe John Oliver invented it.....at least as far I found videos of the hearing.....
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6 minutes ago, SusieQft said:
Obviously, this would help mitigate the problem of covid spikes caused by cruising. But what a joy-kill. How many people would want to go on a cruise if they knew they had to undergo 2 weeks of solitary (or couple) confinement when they got off the ship?
Same comments as above, doubled. Both great ideas for controlling covid, but way more than people would do for a leisure activity.
And the expense, too! And look at Hawaii - I love Hawaii, but not this much
Hawaii may be the most so: Desperate to keep its numbers of COVID-19 cases low, the state has discouraged visitors from the U.S. mainland, and those who do arrive must quarantine or face criminal penalties. Nearly 200 visitors have reportedly been arrested for violations (including one woman who posted pictures on social media of herself eating out in Honolulu when she was supposed to be in quarantine). Visitors also need to respond to a daily online check-in confirming their health and that they remain in quarantine.
AARP posted yesterday a listing of states and quarantines - granted, very difficult to actually enforce here, but the concept is getting stronger by the minute, I think
https://www.aarp.org/travel/travel-tips/safety/info-2020/state-quarantine-guide.html
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I only wish we could factually say there was anyplace in the US that we could say masks were worn without complaint. I know it's not mine, and it's not Palm Beach County either, apparently.
Maskless man pulls gun on masked man in Palm Beach County
https://news.yahoo.com/maskless-man-pulled-gun-masked-214800850.html
Opponents sue Palm Beach County over mask mandate (fortunately in my view, judge upheld mask mandate)
https://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/20200701/opponents-sue-palm-beach-county-to-block-mask-mandate
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When even Business Insider reports that wearing masks has become politicized in the US, well....or, seriously, just google 'masks', 'US', 'politicized' and read reports all across the reporting spectrum. Or just read of the incidents where mask wearing is disputed, sometimes violently....all I can say is if there is a neighborhood is 100% mask wearing, it's an anomaly in the US. Be happy if there are enough people who want to protect their neighbors, and expect the neighbors to protect them, and follow through on that commitment.
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I'd bet the Hurtigruten passengers are now struggling with whether they inadvertently exposed an awful lot of people on their return from what should have been a joyous holiday trip.
Hmm, what if quarantine was imposed on passengers on immediately exiting the ship - being transported to a holding area for those 10-14 days? That might mitigate a bit how many others would be exposed, rather than allowing passengers to head home in private or public transportation, no?
In any event, I suspect the Hurtigruten saga has extended at least the CDC's no sail order by quite a bit...
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And, perhaps more 'on topic' LOL - now a Hurtigruten passenger has tested positive.
https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/news/least-36-hurtigruten-crew-and-one-passenger-have-covid-19
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@Guerncruising, thank you. We're currently in Stage 4 (of a five stage process), so many stores are open, although supposed to watch how many are inside at a time, many restaurants are open for inside dining under strict protocols, health clubs are open in many cases with safety protocols - theoretically making real progress, and masking is state mandated, although opposed by more than a few folks.
My doctor is just quite nervous that numbers are going to rise very quickly with the stage relaxation. He's also unsure that any vaccine will be the total panacea we'd all love. I have type 2 diabetes so he will want me in one of the earlier inoculation phases as possible, but bluntly told me don't be counting on anything any too soon and stick with shelter in place as much as I can.
However, I agree, I think an awful lot of people stopped thinking the virus could really affect them, and now the numbers are rising. States around us are even worse. In my particular area, people seem to be adhering to wearing masks for the most part - but then we had a story of a bunch of high schoolers who had a 'pop up prom' across the state line. I have no idea what the kids, their parents, the chaperones, or the hosting facility were thinking, but now that's caused a good sized problem.
I get the idea that cruise ships, and their most fervent fans, are so eager to literally 'test the waters', but I think it's far too early to consider that, for their own safety and the rest of the population. Oh, well...
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Apparently Japan isn't doing well either? And I know my own state is seeing statistics go the wrong way, boo! And the debates about school openings, in almost any shape (virtual/blended/in person), are getting more heated by the moment.
My internist yesterday told me to still pretty much follow shelter in place 'rules'; I asked him about heading back to the sport facility walking track, which is nice and protected from the extremes of Midwestern weather, and claims to meet and exceed all protocols. That was a big 'nope' - and this guy is a strong proponent about the physical and mental health benefits of exercise. He said, outdoors and at home is suggested - as long as physical distancing is observed.
And of course, forget participating in any large groups....
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Honestly, I wouldn't think management of any cruise line wouldn't think that the same, or worse, could happen to them, and this sort of news probably retriggers even greater scrutiny of any health and safety plans in the works.
Heck, the CDC wasn't thrilled with even NCL's (and I presume NCLH as a whole) initial stance on crew wearing masks. I'm sure NCL has rethought that approach.
One company, Norwegian Cruise Lines, said it felt it had exceeded recommended C.D.C. guidance, because crew members were not just asked but “encouraged” to wear face coverings, the order said.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/travel/coronavirus-cruise-ban-extended.html
To me, it would be the height of hubris for any cruise line to not think, 'there but for the grace of God go we' when reading today's news.
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18 hours ago, BBWC said:
Not starting out well in Europe. Third case of crew infections (after AIDA and TUI). Passengers were allowed to leave the ship.
Getting worse; more infected, per this story; next sailing cancelled.
I believe this story is of interest to all cruise passengers on any line. And, I bet every single regulator and cruise line executive is watching intently. If there's a silver lining, perhaps more data is being captured and protocols being refined as we see 'real life' attempts at cruising, even under strict modifications.
What Criteria Will You Use to Conclude It Is Safe To Cruise Again
in Regent Seven Seas Cruises
Posted
One possible advantage to being a 'newbie' - probably not comparing anything to the old 'pre-COVID' days. I've already read complaints about the possibility of all menus being read on smart phones, etc, replacing traditional menus and taking away a little ambiance, as well as table settings being revamped to ease disinfection processes. Me - couldn't really care less if it prevents even a tiny bit of risk to the crew and to me. Someone used to elegant tables full of chargers and crystal - might be a little disappointing, perhaps.
I mentioned wondering how easy it would be for crew who normally work very hard to accommodate guests to have to say 'no' - and used examples such as 'chair hogs' and dress code 'violators' that apparently not often confronted on any ship, perhaps until you get officers involved, per reading through years of CC comments (got to do something to deal with insomnia at times!)
I've found in life that if rule enforcement is minimal, especially if it's due to fear of upsetting guests, it doesn't change just because the rules may be life or death this time around. Please observe all the folks who can't be bothered wearing masks into their local grocery stores, despite state mandates. And how many national retailers choosing not to put their employees in harm's way by enforcing mask mandates.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2020/07/23/covid-19-mask-mandates-workers-feel-burden-enforcing-mask-rules/5492932002/
Some may say luxury class ship demographics and human actions are just totally different. I think human nature doesn't change that much, no matter how much is piled up in the old bank account.
And, the point may be moot, in any event. Assuming cruising resumes, the experience may include actions such as reserving time at pool and sun deck, as well as more emphasis on room service and timed reservations for dining to avoid lines and crowded conditions. We may lose spontaneity, but perhaps it will be easier for crew to deal with even recalcitrant guests.