BruceMuzz

Certain types of illnesses tend to thrive better in certain parts of the world.

Bird Flu is a good example. Most people associate it with Asia - and China in particular.

The CDC has many theories that several types of common influenza virus first become active every season in China and then spread theri way around the world.

Norwalk Virus is most closely associated with the USA.

It is seen in many other countries, but the USA typically has much higher numbers every year, followed by the UK, Germany, Canada, and Australia.

You can Google this to get the counts by country for every calendar year.

The CDC estimates that 10% or more of Americans suffer from Norwalk Virus every year. That is the highest percentage - and the highest number - of any country on earth.

Cruises that depart from US Ports typically carry more American passengers than cruises that depart from non-US Ports.

Having more Americans onboard increases the odds that more people carrying the virus will be onboard.

That increases the chances of an outbreak.

All the major cruise lines on Earth make the same illness reports to the CDC every day of the year, regardless of where the ship might be located, or the demographics of the passengers.

If you look at the CDC outbreak reports, the majority of ships reporting outbreaks are sailing from US Ports.

Draft Beer has four big problems on cruise ships.

1. The connectors for Asian and European beer kegs are different than the connectors for North American beer kegs. When the equipment is installed, the cruise line must choose between the two. For some strange reason, nobody has been able to come up with a universal connector. In most cases, if a cruise line wants to have draft beer, they opt for the American style connector. That means no affordable draft beer when the ship goes to Europe or Asia.

2. US Public Health Service believes that the design of draft beer taps is not acceptable for use on cruise ships. Every time they do an inspection, we take a big risk of losing points for the beer taps.

3. Conventinal wisdom tells us that buying things in bulk results in lower prices. But this is not the case with draft beer and cruise ships. In North America, draft beer costs us nearly double - per serving - what we pay for bottled or canned beer. The spillage and wastage associated with draft beer increases our costs even more.

4. Then we have to deal with the kegs. We put a large deposit on the kegs when they are delivered, ensuring that we will return the empties to get our money back. But too often we do not empty the kegs until we have left the particular continent they came from. We are then forced to store the empties for as long as 6 months until we return. We just don't have that kind of space to waste, so we end up scrapping the empty kegs and losing our deposit, driving up the costs even higher.

Chenkpt, in reply to your question "How do you know how much advance notice the ship has about VSP inspections? I've been involved in them, and generally, the only notice there is happens when someone on the ship sees the inspectors in their khakis on the dock" - I did not say ships had advance notice, I said "they have a fair idea about when the CDC will inspect the ship". For example, obviously, there's no expectation of a CDC inspection while at sea or at ports that are not in the US. For ships that have recently been inspected and received a good score, there is little likelihood of another inspection from the VSP for some amount of time and conversely, ships that have had serious violations after an inspection can expect to be re-inspected at some point in the not too distant future. Of course, there are inspections conducted by other countries' health authorities, but our conversation was about the VSP.

Your past experiences are no longer valid. Over the past 18 months the USPH Team has announced a new, more agressive schedule of inspections that follows no predictable trends. As a result, quite a few ships have had multiple inspections over very short periods of time - completely unpredictable - and this resulted in more ships failing the inspections than we have seen in many years.

When my ship returned to the USA this year, we expected to be inspected almost immediately - as we always have been. Instead, we were not inspected for 4 months. But then we were inspected again just one week later. Even though we have now been inspected twice in one season - fulfilling our yearly quota -as we always have - Captain Ames assured me that we could expect to see him at least one more time before we leave.

Who makes the best automobile? Why?

Which hamburger tastes better; McDonalds or Burger King? Why?

Which is better; Coke or Pepsi? Why?

Who was funnier; Shields or Yarnell? Why?

Like the OP's question, these are all interesting queries that would receive a wide range of answers.

Unfortunately all those answers would be useless.

Kinda like asking for free specialty restaurants. Not likely to see that either. What I would like to see is them reduce the price of making a call home. We were on the Carnival Destiny a few years ago and they ran a special for like a buck a minute or something. We made a quick call home a couple times. That would be something they could do and probably make money on it. I would bet hardly anyone would call home on a ship now.

That same precious and narrow bandwidth used for the internet on ships is also used for many other things - including satellite telephone calls. Voice calls burn up bandwidth even faster than internet connections.

If voice calls are made cheaper, more people will make the calls.

More people making calls will dramatically slow the internet connections.

It is a no win situation.

Every time we have some sort of NLV action on a ship - which is more and more often these days, the "experts" come out of the woodwork.

As chengkp75 already mentioned, the prevention measures taken are designed, mandated, and audited by the CDC. They have done extensive - and expensive - research (using your tax dollars) to determine the best practices.

But are these the BEST POSSIBLE practices?

The so-called "experts" tell us that we could do far more.

They tell us that we should close the Casino, stop the Art Auctions, close the Spa, Close the Buffet, close all public toilets, and cancel all shore tours if we are really serious about stopping this.

And they are correct.

Since NLV is primarily spread by human contact, we could eliminate all human contact on ships during outbreaks by confining everyone to their staterooms, deliver all food to cabins, and have service staff wear bio-hazard suits to service the cabins. All the additional staff required to do this would double the price of your cruise and you would not be too happy about that cruise when you got home. But you would be healthy and un-infected onboard the ship.

So where do we draw the line?

Should we destroy your cruise completely with extreme measures to ensure that you are completely protected from an uncomfortable short-term illness spread by your not-too-clean fellow cruisers?

Should we inconvenience you for a few days in order to ensure a reasonable chance for you to avoid an uncomfortable short-term illness spread by your not-too-clean fellow cruisers?

Should we ignore the problem entirely (like the airlines and hotels do) - and as most people do with colds and other viruses - and hope you are lucky and clean enough to avoid an uncomfortable short-term illness spread by your not-too-clean fellow cruisers?

The port of Beijing WAS PREVIOUSLY Tianjin.

But now there is a new port called Xingang (Mandarin for New Port) that is located about 30 minutes south of Tianjin.

Most cruise ships are stopping there.

You are required to take a bus for 30 minutes from Xingang to the train station in Tianjin.

The train trip from Tianjin to Beijing can take anywhere from 2 to 3 hours.

If your ship is in Xingang or Tianjin for a few days, it is a very good idea to book a hotel in Beijing rather than making the long trip back to the ship every night.

Princess. We tried once, but I don't think I would try them again until I'm (MUCH) older. We were the youngest on the ship by at least 20 years! The "nightlife" was done by around 10PM. We didn't really cruise in an off time either, it was the week before Christmas. Maybe I'll give them another try when I'm 50!

And here is the perfect example of misconception and mis-information on Cruisecritic.

The 3 weeks before Christmas ARE considered off-season by the cruise industry - on most itineraries. During those 3 weeks, we see a much higher count of older passengers who book for the lower fares and the lack of children onboard.

I have managed 28 different cruise ships for 11 different cruise lines over the past 30+ years.

Those lines ranged from the most upscale to the least upscale.

During that period of time, hundreds of Cruisecritic members haver informed me that they would never sail any of those cruise lines ever again because the ships were:

Too big / too small

Too expensive / too cheap

Too elegant / too plain

Too fast / too slow

Too sophisticated / not sophisticated enough

Too much Norwegian/Chinese/German/Greek/ Italian/Dutch/American/International

Not enough Norwegian/Chinese/German/Greek/ Italian/Dutch/American/International

Too avant garde / too old style

Too many smokers / not enough places to smoke

Child friendly / not child friendly

Elderly friendly / not elderly friendly

Too much like the other lines / not enough like the other lines

Too hot / too cold

Food too spicy / food too bland

Food portions too large / food portions too small

Crew too friendly / crew not friendly enough

Passengers too snooty / passengers too trashy

Too many formal nights / not enough formal nights

But they do all agree that cruising is not what it used to be - while completely forgetting that they are paying only about 10% of what they paid many years ago when cruising was much better.

Counting this week, I have been on 1,461 cruises. I stopped counting cruise days long ago.

It does help when you are paid to cruise and are expected to be onboard every week.

It is nearly impossible to take a cruise on the Great Lakes.

The 2 entrances to the Great Lakes; the Chicago River and the Welland Canal, are so old and so small that only a very few small and old cruise ships can enter the Great Lakes. The only scheduled cruise ship on the Great Lakes is a German company that caters to Germans only.

I don't understand - where did that Q&A come from? Could you cite a source please?

 

Regarding your statements about the "development"- others call it the identification - of Norwalk virus, please see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10804141

 

The identification of that virus had more to do with the electron microscope than poor hygiene in Ohio. [Reference: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2772359/

 

I really have to wonder where you're getting your information.

I get nearly all my information from the CDC.

I do training for/with them when I am not managing cruise ships.

Your tax dollars at work...............................

To state the the Norwalk virus originated in the US is incorrect: the strain was first identified in the US, it did not originate in the US. The virus existed in other parts of the Globe long before it was identified in 1972. For decades prior, it was described as "the winter vomiting disease".

 

I've found no evidence that the US has a higher percentage of people stricken with noro virus than any other country. Could you please cite your source for that statement?

 

Hyperbole is counter productive when discussing disease outbreaks. For factual information, please see this article on the Center for Disease Control website: http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/11/5/04-1090_article.htm

 

-Salacia

I agree completely. Anyone who states that the illness originated in the USA would be wrong. I stated that it DEVELOPED in the USA. Although it has probably been around for centuries or longer, it needed large numbers of people with poor hygiene to allow it to thrive and develop. Thank you Ohio.

If you Google "Norwalk by country" - or some other similar reference - you can read thousands of studies done by national, international, and regional health groups -as well as universities - who all seem to agree that the good old USA is "Norwalk Central". But Germany, UK, and Australia are quickly catching up at this point.

When I worked for the CDC, they conducted a study at International Airports around the world, checking passengers exiting airport bathrooms. After determining if they had washed their hands after using the facilities, they were asked which passport they carried. ( I am very glad I was not assigned to work on that study) When the numbers were tallied, the Mainland Chinese were the worst offenders on handwashing. Americans came in second worst.

Q: Which is the most common and effective method to spread NLV?

A: Failing to wash your hands after using the toilet.

Q: Where do most cruise ships have outbreaks?

A: On itineraries leaving from US Ports, where the majority of passengers are from the USA.

Q: Where do cruise ships have the lowest number of outbreaks?

A: On itineraries away from the USA, where the number of American passengers is very low.

:(:confused::(:confused: We are very concerned about going on the 4/26 Cruise, does not seem like this ship has been able to clean up its act, the history of these problems is of great concern, heads should roll over these persistent problems some folks in leadership rolls on and off this "SICK SHIP" should be held accountable.

To get a bit of perspective on this issue:

The USA is where Norwalk Virus developed and was discovered; Norwalk, Ohio.

Every year the USA has a higher number and a higher percentage of people sick with this illness than any other country in the world.

The CDC is estimating between 20 million and 30 million Americans have it EVERY year. Most people who get it at home do not report it, so numbers could be far higher.

That's at least 10% of the American population - compared to 2% on Crown Princess.

The history of these problems is of great concern. It has been going on for decades now, and the US Government is doing nothing about it.

Is the American Government going to do anything about this?

Are they warning visitors from abroad?

When is America going to "clean up it's act"?

How about hand sanitizers at US immigration?

Have you heard any public service announcements in America, warning of this terrible problem?

Heads should roll over these persistent problems, and American leadership should be held accountable.

I was wondering if anyone could tell me if either wi-fi or an Internet cafe was available near the port.

 

Thank you

 

Diane

You are probably asking about JEJU (sometimes spelled Cheju) Island off the coast of South Korea.

The port there is very industrial. There is really nothing around the port area.

The nearest town is about 30 minutes away by bus or taxi.

Our tentative plans:

 

Nagasaki: chill in the city, take the tram(s), visit the Atomic Bomb Museum, Peace Park, Dejima, maybe Glover Garden, small plate grazing throughout.

 

Kobe: take the shinkansen to and from Kyoto and stay the overnight in Kyoto.

 

Have you thought about flying to/from Hiroshima? I have no idea if people do this, I just think you might check it out before you spend so much time on the train, (even if it is a great train).

It is possible to fly from Hiroshima to Tokyo.

But it will cost you far more to fly - especially with the transport to and from airports, and it will take you far longer to fly - with the advance check-in time and the trips to and from the airport.

Seating on Shinkansen trains is all essentially Business Class. If you opt for the Green Car seats, it is First Class. Unless you are flying Business or First (at a premium cost), the train is far more comfortable and faster - at a lower price.

I suspect your years of service have left you affected by the vocal minority of complainers, and not the silent majority of folks who like to sail the older, smaller ships. These ships would not continue to exist if there wasn't such a group of people willing (and eager) to sail on them. A Princess staffer told me years ago that it's the larger, newer ships subsidizing the older and smaller ones of the fleet, despite the usually higher fare to sail on them. I'm sure Princess management would rather get ride of them. But a certain group like them and choose to sail on them.

 

I can assure you I love the smaller ships. And neither you nor anyone else heard me scream when my cabin on an old (1973) small ship was flooded last year on my return from dinner. Why did I not get upset? Because the situation was dealt with so well. There was no hesitation -- the hotel manager was waiting for me, he immediately told me I was being moved to a different cabin, and with the assistance of several staff I was completely transferred within a half hour.

 

This never seems to happen anymore on "newer, bigger" ships. There is no ability to make a decision/take action without consulting 8 levels of management and the home office first.

 

So....not only was there no screaming, but I have booked two more cruises (in addition to four already completed) on this little, old ship with no casino, no production shows, no specialty dining, and one small pool. Long may she cruise the seas.

Actually, I am on a smaller, older ship this week.

I love them as well.

From the previous voyage, we received over 1,000 written complaints about vibration, rusty tap water, flooded cabins, no hot water, poor A/C, dated decor, worn carpets and furnishings, renovation going on during the cruise, paint smells, sewage smells, toilets not flushing, telephones not working, slow internet, no internet, galley noise, waiting too long to go ashore and return. The list goes on and on.

Over 1,000 written complaints is nearly one per passenger. That is not a "vocal minority".

The "vocal minority" was the 50 + passengers in my office screaming about these problems. They claimed that they loved small ships too. Maybe they just like to scream a lot.

As for responding to those complaints, there is no ability to make a decision/take action on this small ship either - without consulting 8 levels of management and the home office first.

We have a hot tub, run it at 100-102 degrees, which is PLENTY hot. We've yet to experience a cruise ship hot tub that got CLOSE to that temperature.

 

Maxing out the heat would make them uncomfortable for most people (especially those with sunburn) and could exaggerate medical issues like blood pressure.

 

Since we like it hot-hot-hot, we'll stay out, and leave more room for the rest of you.

The US Public Health Service has just about everything to say about how we operate cruise ships. One of their instructions is to lower jacuzzi and hot tub temperatures.

On a cruise, many of our already over-medicated passengers then choose to over-indulge with alcohol, food, and exercise. This creates dangerous blood pressure and other heart risks, which are further increased by bathing in very hot water.

USPH has also instructed cruise lines to reduce / eliminate bubbles in jacuzzis. They claim that the bubbles encourage growth of Legionella.

As to the the front page of this site currently is a "Hawiian shirt'' really a fashion ''faux paux'' on a cruise. I don't think so and Iam often very critical of the way many dress on cruises and in other countries(Europe). The other two pictures are right on, a man in a spedo and a women in a robe no debate in my book but a floral shirt on a guy is O.K. with me on a cruise or beach vaction . What do you think while I have never worn one I do own two and the next time I am in the Caribbean I will go for it no robe or spedo though .B.T.W. what would you replace the shirt with mine would be matching t-shirts this is just goofy to me but I know some get a kick in dressing alike . What is your idea of a ''faux paux''

It is indeed a "Faux pas" to call it a Faux Paux (false pal).

Those passengers who are so in love with smaller, older ships are the first to scream the longest and the loudest when their cabin carpet is soaked from a burst pipe, or the cabin is too warm when the A/C fails, or the toilet won't flush, or the dining room service is too slow because when we built the ship 20 years ago, we didn't anticipate needing an additional 50 crew beds to accommodate all the new onboard positions that were added over the past 2 decades (and removed waiters to make room for them).

Just what makes you think that people who appreciate traditional ships are going to "...scream the longest and the loudest,,,"? Your comment about adding 50 crew beds and removing waiters to make room for them simply does not make sense. Where did the removed waiters sleep before they were removed?

What makes me think that is the 10 years I spent managing smaller older ships for several mass market cruise lines.

My comment about needing to add crew beds - and removing waiters - does not make sense to someone who does not work on ships. Quite frankly it doesn't make much sense to those of us who do work on ships.

ALL the cruise lines design and build ships based on current operational needs. We always build just enough beds to accommodate the number of crew we need today, to operate the ship. We all know that as the ship gets older and the cruise industry changes and develops, we will have to add more crew to handle the changes and new developments. But we never think to add more crew beds today, to handle the additional crew needed in future.

On a larger ship, this is not so much a problem. Later on, we can always find more space to shoehorn in some additional new crew cabins.

But on the older smaller ships, there is no more space available. Even if there was, the smaller physical plants onboard are not able to service more A/C, ventilation, water, power, and other requirements for more crew cabins.

What can we do?

We are legally required to add more Engineers and Nautical staff. Our onboard revenue people keep adding more revenue opportunities that require additional staff.

So we add those required staff.

But the only places for them to sleep are already occupied.

So we start removing waiters and cabin stewards to make room for the newly added crew.

How old is "old" for a cruise ship today?

You can ask the very same question for an automobile or an airplane.

And get the very same answer.

There are some beautiful vintage autos out there these days, but not very many.

Most old autos are rust buckets that are falling apart.

Their owners did not see any wisdom in spending large amounts of money to maintain them in pristine condition for all these years.

There are some beautiful old Boeing 707's still around.

Would you like to fly on one for your next vacation?

Some people might say "Yes". Most of us would prefer to fly on something a bit more modern.

With today's modern building methods, a cruise ship starts to show her age after 10 years. Equipment starts wearing out. Water pipes start breaking. Aircon fails more often. Engines are no longer fuel efficient. Vacuum toilets fail more often. Electrical systems succumb to the salt air and high humidity. Some of these things can be fixed, replaced, or re-furbished. Some cannot.

Some are just too expensive to fix properly.

Those passengers who are so in love with smaller, older ships are the first to scream the longest and the loudest when their cabin carpet is soaked from a burst pipe, or the cabin is too warm when the A/C fails, or the toilet won't flush, or the dining room service is too slow because when we built the ship 20 years ago, we didn't anticipate needing an additional 50 crew beds to accommodate all the new onboard positions that were added over the past 2 decades (and removed waiters to make room for them).

Looking at the numbers and percentages can sometimes be confusing.

The CDC's 2% threshold for reporting an "Outbreak" is 2% of pax and crew on a sinigle voyage. The length of the voyage has everything to do with how easy it is to reach that 2% threshold.

Every day on nearly every cruise ship in the world, we have 2 or 3 pax report GI symptoms that COULD BE Norwalk.

On a 5,000 passenger ship on a 7-day cruise, they might have 21 passengers report illness in a given week. A tiny percentage. Not nearly large enough to even consider reporting. When the cruise is over after 7 days, the total is reset to zero again.

On a 1,000 passenger ship on a 49-Day cruise, 2 or 3 passengers reporting each day would put the ship at the outbreak level of 2% in just a week - with 6 more weeks to go in official "outbreak status".

Which ships are most likely to hit that 2% CDC reporting threshold?

Easy answer: Large ships on very long cruises.

But very few large ships ever make very long cruises. They typically make 7 days or shorter trips. Half the pax who might contract Norwalk on the ship are on their way home before they know they have it.

Which ships are next most likely to hit the 2% CDC threshold?

Easy answer: Small ships on long cruises.

Which cruise line has the highest number of reported outbreaks? HAL

Which cruise line has the highest number of small ships on long cruises? HAL

We have always looked forward to the "directed" bridge lesson and play. Hate to hear that Princess isn't going to do it any more. We have had some excellent, hard working bridge instructors over the years (Armond and Paula come to mind).

Altho Princess has been my 1st choice, I'll have to think harder about Holland America, which hopefully will still have organized bridge on the 14+ day cruises. I can understand why they don't do it on short cruises but one little inside cabin for a few hundred dollars seems pretty short sighted to me.

HAL has also just stopped bridge instructors on all cruises shorter than 30 days. Selected cruises (not all) over 30 days will still have bridge instructors onboard. Most of the other mass market lines have stopped bridge instructors completely.

Although the instructors are not paid, the free cabins they get are worth quite a bit of money. On an average 7 day cruise, if that cabin is sold instead of given away, the company gets an additional $3,000 or so in revenue. That's an additional $150,000 per year per ship. For the Princess fleet, that comes to an additional $2 Million or so per year.

1. Bridge players don't spend money on ships.

2. Most ships have no staff who know how to play bridge.

3. Many former bridge players have already expired and many more are nearly there.

Thanks .. some club soda does have added sodium, so hope you are right. I do want to avoid the added sodium. Will check it out, we are going on the N Amsterdam, have not been on HAL for 4-5 years.

You will be consuming about a half pound of salt in the dining room food and you are worried about a few milligrams of salt in your drinks??????

One steak, one pizza serving, one order of French fries, or one bowl of soup contains more salt than an entire case of soda.

The average passenger age on any cruise ship varies dramatically from week to week and month to month.

And although we use historical data to try to predict future cruise info based on past cruises, the trends in recent years have been all over the map.

I am on a mid-sized mass market ship this year. The average age on my ship has fluctuated from 53 to 82 over the past 6 months.

These numbers rarely even came close to matching the numbers on the same itineraries at the same times last year.