BruceMuzz

I'll bet you are probably correct that norovirus infection, overall, doesn't get a lot of attention in the news because it is happening all over the place, and is not as easily traced to a single location, such as a cruise ship, or a nursing home, or a hotel. The number of people impacted on the Explorer of the Seas, coupled with the fact that the cruise was cut short as a result of the outbreak, contributed to the news aspects of this unfortunate situation.

 

May I ask your source which suggests that 10 million people are sick with norovirus right now? The CDC website says that 19-21 million are sickened annually. The 10 million figure you cite would indicate that half of the annual infections are occurring at the end of January. Just trying to understand if there is a seasonal aspect to the infection rate?

 

http://www.cdc.gov/norovirus/about/overview.html

 

The CDC estimated that just over 20 million Americans had NLV last year. This number is based on REPORTED cases.

How many Americans get what they call the "Stomach Flu", stay home for a few days to recover, and then report the case to the local hospital or the CDC? Maybe 10% to 25% ??

 

It's probably safe to guess that the real number of Americans who actually contract NLV when NOT on a cruise is closer to 40 or 50 million per year - or more.

NLV infection patterns follow the same patterns as the flu virus. The great majority of cases show up in the Winter Flu Season. That's why everyone gets so worked up about NLV on ships in January - but never in July.

It would not at all be surprising to find that 10 million Americans are sick with NLV this week. At least that many Americans have the flu this week - and the Flu is far less contagious.

Thin people are also apparently disliked by the airlines and equally discriminated against.

 

I weigh 150 pounds.

When I fly, I sit next to enormous people who rarely pay more than I do - and often pay even less than I do.

The airlines have to pay so many pennies per mile per pound to fly us around. They are in effect giving a discount to fat people - or they are double charging thin people.

Either way, I don't like it. It'd not fair.

The OP asked if we would take a cruise on a ship that previously had one outbreak of NLV.

We are talking about a few hundred people with a virus.

 

In the USA - every year - Norovirus outbreaks affect between 20 million and 30 million people (According to the CDC).

 

Would you visit a country, or live in a country, where so many people are sick with Norwalk Virus EVERY year?

 

Seems like a very silly question, don't you think?

The Explorer of the Seas is coming back to her home port two days early because of a Norovirus outbreak. Royal Caribbean is working with the CDC to clean and sanitize the ship prior to the next sailing. Question is - would you go out on the next sailing? I'm sure that the ship would be sparking clean and disinfected. My concern would be the crew members that are still contagious are going to be working on the ship. But I would hate to cancel a cruise that I have been looking forward to. What are your thoughts on this?

 

Why would you think that contagious crew would be working?

First, very few crew get NLV.

When they do get it, they MUST report it to avoid being fired.

 

If they do report illness, they are paid to isolate themselves and they get room service in their cabins. Why would any employee risk losing his job while working sick, instead of getting paid to tell the truth and get time off with room service?

 

EVERY cruise line isolates sick food handlers longer than recommended by the CDC to ensure that they cannot be contagious any longer.

Of course I would go. I always wash my hands and follow good hygiene at home and on my last two cruises there were no cases of Noro.

 

People read the media and get so afraid. The CDC is on the ball and doing their best to ensure good hygiene. I would highly recommend that you would continue to wash your hands onboard and to use the hand sanitizer in addition to washing your hands.

 

Let's have a Cruise Critic Campaign "Wash Your Hands For Better Health"

 

Wrong. There are ALWAYS cases of Norovirus on ANY cruise- especially if that cruise is leaving from a US Port or if there are many Americans onboard.

We just don't make a big deal of it unless the numbers suddenly spike upwards.

On the 1400 plus cruises I have worked, we never had a cruise where at least a few passengers did not report GI symptoms that resembled NLV.

 

My colleagues at CDC estimate that ANY cruise departing a US port has an average 60 passengers infected with NLV. Half of them know they have it, but most will not report it. The other half got infected on the airplane or in the hotel before the cruise and do not yet know they have it.

It is only because the ships are so careful with sanitizing that these infected people are rarely able to spread the contagion.

I would say that close to 700 people sickened is newsworthy.

 

If you think that is newsworthy - how about 10 million Americans sick with the same illness right now ?

 

That's about the number this week in the good old USA. Terrifying is it not?

10 million sickened and nobody is covering it.

Must be because they are not on a cruise ship.

 

Or maybe it is because NLV is just a cousin of the flu and nobody gets too excited about people having the flu every winter.

To be allowed onboard, the dog has to be "certified" as a service animal.

 

I have a veterenarian friend who will "Certify" any animal you choose as a service animal.

 

There is no offical standard for certifying an animal, so just about any letter from a Vet is good enough.

The best part is the good old ADA in it's wisdom, prohibited cruise lines from asking what the animal in question actually does as a service animal.

 

Many selfish passengers have taken advantage of this goofy situation to bring their pets onboard with them. Princess has had particularly big problems with this and has had to blacklist a number of passengers who refused to stop playing this game.

Your tax dollars at work................................

My colleagues at CDC estimate that on ANY cruise departing ANY American port this time of year, at least 60 passengers board the ship with NLV.

 

If you sail on a very large ship, with large numbers of passengers and crew onboard, on a relatively short cruise (7 days or less) it is very difficult to pass the 2% threshold the CDC has established for reporting suspected NLV outbreaks - unless it is a major one.

 

If you sail on a busy cruise on Allure of the Seas with 6,500 pax and 3,500 crew on a 7 day itinerary, the 2% CDC threshold for reporting an outbreak is 200 pax and crew. That means that up to 199 pax and crew can report ill and the ship is not required to do anything. In most scenarios, many of these these sick people would be running all over the ship, contaminating everything you are touching. You're next.......................

 

The word SUSPECTED is very important. There is no reliable test available to give rapid results on NLV illness. In most cases, by the time the medical people confirm that the virus / illness is NLV, the cruise is over, the sick people have recovered, and everyone has returned home.

 

The only question is; How many know they have it and refuse to divulge the truth, and how many contracted it on the airplane or in a hotel and do not yet know they have it?

 

An additional question is; How many passengers go ashore in a port where there are other ships with the same problems, touching things that the sick passengers from the other cruise lines are touching, then bringing the infection back on to their ship?

Isn't it sad that we are in the 21st century and cruise lines are held responsible for teaching their adult North American passengers how to properly wash their hands after using a toilet in order to avoid getting sick?

 

When we have so many people still living like the Flintstones, all those great things on the Jetsons are still a very long way off.

I have spent nearly 600 days on cruise ships and have avoided Norovirus so far

 

I have spent 1437 CRUISES - not DAYS - on cruise ships.

I have supervised clean-up of so many NLV outbreaks that I have lost count.

I always wash my hands - very frequently and very thoroughly.

I keep my hands out of my mouth, nose, and eyes.

I do not use hand sanitizing gels. They do not prevent viral contamination.

I never shake hands with anyone.

I never eat in buffets.

I never use public toilets.

I have visited many cabins where the occupants were very ill with NLV.

I have wheeled sick passengers down the gangway on countless occasions.

I have personally confronted many sick passengers who refused to be isolated.

I have visited many public areas to supervise clean-up where sick passengers have vomited.

 

I have never had Norwalk Virus.

Unfortunately, statistics have a way of clouding the issue.

 

An outbreak officially occurs (and must be reported) when more than 2% of the people onboard (during that particular voyage) have experienced GI symptoms that are consistent with NLV.

 

On every cruise, on every cruise ship in the world, we have anywhere from 3 to 5 people - on a normal day - reporting GI symptoms There are no quick reliable tests to positively determine NLV infections on ships, so the medical people make an educated guess and then choose to err on the side of caution when deciding to isolate passengers and make the cases reportable.

 

Most of the time, most of these cases are not NLV, but other viruses, over-eating, over imbibing, sensitive stomachs, inexperienced travelers, seasickness, or other medical issues.

 

The challenges on hitting that 2% threshold are based on the size of the ship and the length of the cruise.

If you have a ship carrying 6,500 passengers and 3,500 crew on a 3-day cruise, you would need to have more than 70 people reporting NLV symptoms each day before the 2% threshold was reached on day 3.

If you have a ship carrying 700 passengers and 300 crew on a 42 day cruise, even one passenger per day reporting ill would put the ship over 2% - but only after 20 days or so.

 

A cruise line with big ships and short itineraries will have far more NLV cases - but far fewer official outbreaks.

A cruise line with smaller ships and longer itineraries will generally have far fewer NLV cases - but far more official outbreaks.

 

Then when you factor in the other significant contributors:

 

More people on longer cruises tend to fly to them and stay in hotels, increasing the chances of contracting NLV on the airplane or in the hotel before the cruise and bringing it onboard with them.

Short cruises from US ports have mostly passengers who did not fly or stay in hotels before the cruise.

 

Incubation period for NLV is between 24 and 72 hours. Many people who contract NLV on a short cruise don't have any symptoms until they are on the way home. Those cases are rarely reported and do not count for the 2% threshold for reporting outbreaks on ships.

 

People with weakened immune symptoms are more susceptible to NLV. Older people - who typically have weaker immune systems - typically take longer cruises on smaller ships.

 

Norwalk virus developed, and was discovered, in Norwalk Ohio, USA. Every year over 10% of the American public reportedly has Norwalk Virus (35 million people). There is probably an equal number of Americans who also have it but do not report it. This is the highest percentage and the highest number of any country in the world. If there is a high percentage of American passengers on your cruise, there is a greater chance that a higher number of passengers will have carried the virus aboard with them.

 

Recent CDC research suggests that people with type O blood are most susceptible to contracting Norwalk Virus. People with Blood Types A and B are significantly less susceptible.

 

Recent CDC research has concluded that many Asians are not affected by Norwalk Virus - even if they are infected. This could be good news if you are Asian - but bad news if it turns out that Asians can be unknowing carriers of the virus without any symptoms.

 

The CDC figured out long ago that the 2 most likely places to contract NLV on a cruise ship are: 1) The Buffet - especially during the first 48 hours of a cruise, and 2) Public toilets at any time during the cruise.

If you are smart enough to avoid those high risk places, (and IF you practice good personal hygiene) the chances of contracting NLV on any cruise are significantly reduced.

I got a great deal on a 14 day cruise on the Coral last year. I was surprised to see that they chose not to offer that option this year.

 

The reason you got such a great deal last year is supply and demand. All the mass market lines have learned the hard way that they cannot fill a ship on a 14-day Alaska trip unless they give it away.

But when they give it away, they lose twice; first they lose big money on the cruise itself, then they lose bigger money because cruisers on a 14-day Alaska cruise spend almost the same amount of money onboard as those on a 7-day Alaska cruise.

 

Offering 2 x 7-day Alaska cruises on the same ship results in higher average fares and much higher onboard spending. That allows the cruise line to be a for profit business rather than a charity. Then the company's stockholders are much happier about their investments.

There are several very effective - and very expensive - chemicals used by the cruise lines to combat the entire family of norwalk-like viruses.

The best and most popular are made in Canada; Virox and Virkon.

Both contain different versions of activated hydrogen peroxide.

They both have the same toxic effects on viruses as chlorine bleach - but without most of the damage to surfaces and soft goods that comes with using chlorine bleach.

 

On the down side, both chemicals need to stay on surfaces for extended periods in order to kill viruses.

When Virox dries on a surface, it smells like urine.

When Virkon dries on a surface, it smells like vomit.

The company I work for originally served coffee that is quite similar to the coffee served on HAL and several other mass market lines. Every cruise, half the pax told us they liked it and the other half told us they hated it.

My ship uses one ton of roast coffee beans and ground coffee every month, so our coffee bill is rather massive.

We decided to spend a lot more money and upgrade the coffee. As soon as we upgraded, half our pax told us they liked it and the other half told us they hated it.

So we spent even more money and upgraded to Starbucks coffee.
After the second upgrade, half the pax told us they liked it and the other half told us they hated it.

With that winning record, we returned to purchasing our original generic coffee - and saving a ton of money. Today, half our pax tell us they like it and the other half tell us they hate it.

Many years ago I worked for a cruise line that used a coffee extract syrup to make it's American style coffee. Many pax complained bitterly about the coffee.
My boss in our head office invited a group of frequent cruisers to visit the office for a focus group discussion about the quality of our product.
As expected, many negative comments were voiced about the quality of the coffee served onboard our ships.
When it was time for a break, my boss invited his guests to join him across the street at Starbucks for a coffee. When everyone had received their coffee, he asked them how they liked it. The responses were predictable. Everyone claimed that the Starbucks coffee was superior to what we served onboard.
Then my boss introduced the Starbucks Manager, who admitted he had prepared their "Starbucks" coffee with the coffee syrup supplied to him by the cruise line.

There were no further comments made that day about the quality of our onboard coffee.
The cruise line still uses the coffee extract syrup to make most of the coffee onboard.

Half the passengers claim they like it; the other half claim they hate it. Go figure..............

I myself find it strange that a company that prides itself on a 'quality' product, accepts , at best, mediocrity in their coffee. When questioning the higher level management as to their nasty coffee, I always receive the same replies: 'half the customers LOVE it, the other half HATE it...we must be doing it right'..I have heard this same response on at least 8 occasions. I wonder if this would be their response if half or more of the people 'HATED' the (insert your favorite food item) in the mdr?

 

I have frequently offered concrete suggestions as to how to improve their coffee process...only to be rebuffed.

 

For the past 37 years I have managed ships for11 different cruise line companies. During all those years one of the biggest issues ever has been the coffee. These comments are from cruisers on luxury lines down to the lowest mass market lines.

All the comments in this current thread are the same ones I have been hearing all those years.

37 years ago people were telling me how much better the coffee used to be.

37 years ago people were telling me how to make the coffee better - for them.

37 years ago half the people were telling me the coffee was too strong and the other half were telling me the coffee was too weak.

 

For the past 37 years people have been telling me that the coffee on xxx cruise line was so much better - not realizing that I had recently worked for that other line and had everyone over there telling me how much better the coffee was on my current ship.

 

Most cruises - like most automobiles - are designed for the masses. At best, we can hope to please a maximum 90% of the consumers at any given time. Quite often it is less than 90%.

If you don't like the way your Chevrolet performs, you might want to buy a Ferrari.

If you don't like the way the coffee tastes on a ship, why not buy the ship, put your name on the stern, and serve whatever type of coffee you like?

I suspect that the embassies overseas will not have "blank pages" of passport documents laying around. This would be a major risk if one thinks about someone getting hold of those blank pages for criminal purposes. Also would you have enough time in those ports to get to an embassy, sort out what needs to be done, and to get back to the ship on time.

 

Can you not call a Helpline for the Dept of State to see if they can help you.

 

I have had extra pages added to my passport at US Embassies in Beijing and Tokyo, and at the passport agency in Honolulu.

Honolulu required 40 minutes to do it.

Tokyo required one hour to do it.

Beijing required 2 hours.

 

All were free of charge.

Most of Komodo Island is an Indonesian national park.

Before the Indonesian government required any visitors from cruise ships to be on an organized tour, a surprising number of cruisers were bitten and/or killed by the dragons.

 

Nobody is required to purchase a tour from the cruise line in order to go ashore, but for safety reasons, you MUST have purchased a tour from somebody BEFORE going ashore.

 

2 months ago a group of Cruisecritics purchased their own Komodo tour and saved a bundle of money.The tour operator met them at the pier and took them by boat to a remote beach. The tour operator dropped them off and promised to return to pick them up in a few hours. One of the passengers had a heart attack a few minutes after the tour operator left.

None of the passengers on the tour was able to help him. He died on the beach.

Then the Cruisecritic group had to sit on the beach with the corpse, hoping that somebody would pass by to help them.

2 hours later they flagged down a fishing boat, that transported them back to the ship.

They never heard from nor saw the tour operator again.

 

No dragons were involved in the incident - but these people obviously were not prepared to go on an unescorted tour. But they did get a great deal...........................

Depending on who you talk to, the cruise industry carried a total of between 15 million and 20 million passengers worldwide last year (2013).

 

My employers spend really big money with high profile polling companies and other "experts" who claim they can predict what the market will do in future.

While many of these "experts" disagree on many details, they ALL agree that the cruise industry is going to get bigger - much bigger.

 

While only about 10 million Americans took a cruise last year, 25 million additional Americans tell us that they want to take a cruise as soon as they have the time and/or money.

 

Market research is just getting started in China. The new Chinese middle class is much bigger (400 million) than the entire population of the USA. And the new Chinese middle class is growing very fast. They can easily get passports and visas and they have a lot of disposable income. Thus far, the number of Chinese who tell us they want to take a cruise is over 100 million.

 

The Japanese market has just opened up. The 6 or so ships that are marketed in Japan are sailing full - at double the fares that North Americans pay. Polls tell us that 50 million Japanese want to take a cruise since cruising is much cheaper for Japanese (at double the fares) than other types of travel.

 

For the moment, let's ignore all the other potential new markets. And let's assume that all those expensive "experts" are overly optimistic.

 

If we take just 10% of the numbers the experts are claiming; 10% of the 25 million Americans, 10% of the 100 million Chinese, and 10% of the 50 million Japanese, the new totals would double the current size of the international cruise industry.

How many new mega ships (at 5,000 passengers each per week or 250,000 passengers per year) would we have to build to accommodate an additional 17.5 million passengers per year?

EVERY family holiday cruise - and Christmas especially - half the teens on the ship are playing games trying to get their hands - and mouths - on alcohol.

Many succeed.

 

Some pilfer bottles from the mini-bar.

Some steal drinks from lounge tables when the owners are away dancing.

Some steal bottles from wine or beverage displays.

Some sneak into bar or housekeeping pantries and finish half consumed glasses that were left behind.

Some buy it ashore and smuggle it onboard.

Some drink ashore and return drunk to the ship.

Some repeatedly claim their cabin key card is lost, hoping that when the replacement is made, the staff will forget to flag it as underage.

Some call room service and order alcohol under a parent's name.

Some parents provide alcohol to their children and then blame the cruise line when the kid misbehaves and gets caught.

Some steal bottles from flambé carts in the dining room.

Some wait until their idiot neighbors place a box of duty free bottles outside the cabin for luggage collection on the final night of the cruise. Party Time..............

There are always a few barely legal "adults" who are willing to buy it for them.

 

And in every one of these cases, we end up with enraged parents asking why the cruise line is allowing their children to consume alcohol.

If the parents raised their children responsibly, the cruise line would not have to be responsible for them.

 

Children behaving like children is NOT the problem.

Parents who cannot act like responsible adults IS the problem.

ANd we were told most of them are not sold that far in advance.....they use them for "up selling" to those in the categories minimally lower.

 

Wrong again.

The most expensive and the least expensive cabins are always sold out first.

The categories just below the suites are the next ones to sell out.

In all US Ports, ALL passengers MUST leave the ship before any new passengers will be allowed to board the ship.

After passing through US Immigration, transit passengers (those from the previous cruise who are booked on the next cruise) are allowed back on the ship.

US authorities will not allow passengers who have ended their cruise in a US port to re-board or stay onboard the ship.

Many other countries are a bit more reasonable about it.

MY TA told me a while back, oftentimes suites are shown as "sold out" because they hold them for VIP's, comps, upgrades, Sr officer's families, etc, etc, etc. More often then not they are not actually booked by fare paying passengers.

 

Your Travel agent doesn't know what he/she is talking about. You should look for another.

I have worked for most of the mass market lines for several decades. We have NEVER done anything as described above - but I really wish we could.

My front desk staff receives a commission when they sell an onboard upgrade to a suite. They have not had that opportunity for the past 3 years on my ship. There have been no empty suites to sell.

 

My current boss, a Senior Vice President of the company, has to cruise stand-by when he needs to sail with us on business. He usually ends up in a crew cabin.

In 38 years ar sea I have never seen a Sr Officer's family get a suite - unless they paid for it.

I have managed cruise ships for over 3 decades.

Obviously I never have any problems with a passport - but many of my passengers do.

 

Since so many Americans cannot or will not afford a passport, we often have problems when sailing out of a US Port, where American passengers without passports either miss the ship, or have personal or health problems that will not allow them to rejoin the ship.

 

I long ago lost count of the number of my American passengers who got stuck in out of the way places without a passport. A few of them got very lucky and were able to get emergency documents from the US Government in a very short time (less than one week). Most of them waited for a few weeks to get the required documents that allowed them to fly home.

A few waited for very long periods, and had to fly family members down to assist them. This all gets very expensive - much more costly than the price of a passport.

 

A few years ago, we disembarked 2 elderly ladies with medical problems in Western Mexico. One died while waiting for help from the USA. The other spent several months in a Mexican hospital while waiting for assistance. These are obviously extreme cases - but they do happen.

 

As was mentioned earlier, the day of the week and time of day have much to do with success dealing with US Authorities. The country and port are also critical in how well things will go for you.

US Government Consular and Embassy employees do not work evenings or weekends. If you have a serious problem during those periods - good luck.

US Consular and Embassy employees very rarely travel to help you out. If you are an American in a hospital in Puerto Vallarta for example, you will need to arrange to travel to Mexico City to sort out your problems with the US Embassy. That can be difficult, expensive, and time consuming.

If you happen to get stuck on one of the many small island countries in the Caribbean, there may not even be a US Consulate or Embassy in that country. Then you need to do everything over expensive telephone calls to another country, and possibly wait forever for documents to arrive.

 

If you do have a passport and leave it on the ship, you need not worry.

Most countries today require the ship to offload the passports of any passengers who do not make it back to the ship for any reason. As soon as we know or suspect that you are not returning, Security visits your cabin to search for your passports. The passports are passed over to the agent, who is then legally responsible for you until local authorities issue a temporary visa for your stay there. If we do not find passports in your cabin, you are on your own. As soon as the ship departs, you are illegally in that particular country and must sort out things with the local officials.

 

Do you need a passport to travel internationally? Nearly all countries think that you do.

But you can still get away without one if you are American, travelling from the USA to visit the Caribbean - and you do not plan to have any surprises or accidents.

 

So if you are feeling lucky and have plenty of money laying around in case luck is not on your side, take a chance.

The births should be posted eventually on this website http://www.sfport.com/index.aspx?page=2288

 

Hopefully no "birth" announcements, but just the berth assignments please.

Hello all...I have just come back ( 12/7/13) from the first meeting of the SSUSC chapter of South Florida, where I was elected Event / PR Coodinator..interestingly enough, there seems to be an effort to bring the SS United States to Miami, which I have not seen mentioned here much. Philadelphia does not seem like they are really interested in doing anything to save the ship, other than collect docking fees & security monies...at a minimum, the SS United States should become a hotel, museum & casino ( casino not my choice, but it WOULD generate lots of $$ )...look at what the Queen Mary has done in Long Beach - very successful for years now.....I will post here & keep you informed on what develops here in South Florida. BTW, I have a big place in my heart for the SS United States- I came to this country, from Casablanca, Morocco, in 1958, on the SS United States at the age of six. I also sailed her again in 1967, almost 15 by then. She deserves a better fate- let's all try & do what we can to save this American legacy!!

 

Big Al

 

Big Al,

 

I really appreciate your positive attitude on this subject, but how do you define successful?

The Queen Mary in Long Beach has been a financial disaster from Day 1.

The company has never made a penny of profit.

Not sure how many times the ship has been in bankruptcy.

As a hotel, occupancy is ridiculously low - even though she is right next door to the cruise terminal and there are no other hotels nearby.