Liberty of the Seas (LOS) Atlantis Review January 2010

[roen]

A couple months late, but better that than never, right?! The reviews and opinions that I found on this site were such a huge help in making my decision to travel with Royal Caribbean (and Atlantis, who chartered this trip), so I want to make sure and spread the wealth a bit and offer some thoughts. This is kind of long :), so i tried to bold topics to help eyes navigate.

 

Basics: I traveled with my partner of 7 years - I'm 30, and he's 40. I've traveled relatively extensively (Ecuador, England, Mexico), and have taken two "straight" cruises with my family, both on Carnival, on much older "dumpier" ships :). The Liberty (Royal Caribbean) stopped at Labadee (which is Haiti – just a week after the earthquake; more about that below), Grand Cayman, and Cozumel. It departed out of Miami – we stayed there a few days beforehand in South Beach (one of our favorite places – we found a wonderful new hotel, the Cadet – gorgeous, cheap, and great location).

 

Disclaimer: The following review has its share of negatives. I think these are important to be aware of for people who like to research their vacations before they take them. In no way did I have a bad time (in fact, we had a FABULOUS time), but neither did I have a bad attitude – I think it is VERY important to be laid back on vacations, and not take anything too seriously. I did, however, really appreciate some of the advance warnings that I found on cruise critic, namely the food and the ship’s design. If I hadn’t had those, I probably would have had a hard time with some of the things I experienced below. So thank you all very much, and I hope this review can do something similar for others who travel with RC in spite of, or because of, the experiences of those before them.

Overall Impression: When we received our comment cards at the end of the cruise, the very last question was “Will you travel with Royal Caribbean again?” My answer was “Probably not.” The primary reason was because the Liberty did NOT, in any capacity, feel like a ship. I LOVE the sea, and the main thing that I love about cruising is the feeling of being in the middle of such a vast body of saltwater. On the Liberty, though, you had to hunt to find any kind of interaction with the ocean. There were no outside dining areas; the coffee shop (which was otherwise a really cool place to hang out) was buried in the belly of the ship, in the middle of the “Promenade,” a mini-mall of shops and restaurants; almost all of the walking you did funneled you into the middle of the ship; you couldn’t walk along the outside or across the middle unless you were on the topmost deck, and even then, to descend, you had to go back inside and take the elevator or the stairs. (By comparison, on Carnival, I could get almost anywhere without ever going inside.) This might sound like a minor detail, and to some I’m sure it is, but ultimately I felt like I was inside a mega-resort for the bulk of the trip. The front of the ship (the helipad), a beautiful place to sit in the dark and watch the stars, was closed almost like clockwork at nightfall (due to “high winds” which were certainly not in effect every night at 6PM on the nose). The one time I did manage to find it open, I was out there for about 20 minutes when a crewmember came and asked me to leave so they could close it. This was one of the few places to watch the water in front of you and feel the breeze with any kind of sense of quiet – there were a few other places, but they were in the middle of a lot of foot traffic and/or not really set up for sea gazing. Also, there was no place to lounge at the rear of the ship and watch the ocean sail away behind you; the upper decks were taken up by the Flowrider, and the deck below by the Windjammer (buffet). Most of the sides of the ship were glassed in instead of railed – there were very few places to grab a chair and a book, prop your feet up on the rail, and read, listen to the wind, and feel the breeze – the glass panels cut off almost all of the sea air. The pool areas both were walled off with large glass panels, so there was no “open to the sea air” area to swim. And this, to me, really detracted from the experience of being at sea.

 

Random Notes: There were, though, some things I liked about RC. The hands down best thing (and this sounds dorky) was the cookies. Holy cow, best cookies EVER. Cookies for the win! (And I love to bake, and I have to say, they were even better than mine.) They had these chocolate mudslide things that were available in the coffee shop that were dense, chewy, brownie-ish treats with delicious chunks of various goodies in them. And the oatmeal, coconut, and chocolate chips were all very tasty too.

 

I’m not a coffee drinker, but the partner is, and he said the coffee was fine. I love tea, though, and they had a REALLY nice selection of teas – green, chamomile, various blacks, all free, all the time, in the coffee shop.

 

The muster drill was awesome, too – no lifejackets, just hanging out in the dining room listening to instructions. We actually made the first of many friends just by plopping down at a random table and introducing ourselves, and that probably wouldn’t have happened if we were all encumbered by lifejackets, hot, and sweaty.

 

The pools were nice, particularly that there was ALWAYS one open (also always at least one hot tub open). I thought, when booking, that this would hands-down win me over to Royal Caribbean (I’m a total water bug). The problem that I bumped into was the same problem I had with the ship as a whole – the pools were squeezed into the middle of the ship, like being in the center of a giant aquarium, and so I found that I didn’t care to lounge in them like I had expected. (To contrast, on Carnival, there were hot tubs to the back of the ship that looked out over the water where you could see moonlight / stars / feel the wind – I closed those out almost every night, hanging out until they asked me to hop out.) So it wasn’t as exciting as I’d thought it would be.

 

The spa was really cool, too. For Atlantis, they turned the women’s locker room/steam room/sauna into a co-ed after 5 PM. The steam room and sauna were both large and nice, though for some reason the sauna was often turned off on one side or the other. Nice big fluffy towels, and lots of big showers, but eety bitty lockers for some reason. We wandered through the gym, but didn’t use it. One cool thing about the steam room/shower/sauna area was that it opened off to the side to an outdoor sitting area (as long as you propped the door open with a towel so you could get back in). It was very pretty, but again, RC walled the entire thing off with glass panes, so there was no breeze at all, unless you stuck your head out one of the several window-sized openings.

 

 

The crew was hit or miss (keep in mind that this was a gay charter, so that may have influenced the general attitude). I really enjoyed chatting with Celinas at the coffee shop – she let me practice my Spanish with her whenever I ordered, and I made sure to mention her by name on the survey at the end of the ship (apparently name-dropping is very important if someone provides excellent service). Others were cordial, and many were reserved and almost sullen. I didn’t get much in the way of warmth from most crew members, but there weren’t any actual issues – just a general coolness. By contrast, on Carnival (both trips), almost everyone I bumped into had a warm, friendly smile and a hello for me, and the staff that I saw regularly were really nice and left a happy and welcoming impression. Big difference, but again, nothing really WRONG with RC’s crew – they just were chilly.

 

I’m not a drinker, so I can’t comment on the strength/quality of the drinks, though we did go out to the pub on the final night, and my partner ordered a round for us. He went in to get it (we were sitting at a table outside on the promenade) and tried to add an extra bit on for a tip (he’s from the service industry, so always tips high). The man who was ringing him up, though, apparently got very harsh because he couldn’t quite read the tip amount, and demanded that the partner re-write and resign everything. He didn’t say thank you for the tip, he didn’t give any reasoning, he just threw a bit of a hissy fit and sent the partner back on his way. Take that for what you will.

 

Room: We had an interior stateroom, and it blew Carnival’s out of the water (granted, our ships on Carnival were much older). The shower was excellent – sliding doors instead of the customary curtain. Really nice. What wasn’t as nice as Carnival was the one-stop shower gel – it felt like Suave. But fine for a few days – it just didn’t have the indulging feeling of the typical spa-like toiletries. The other random thing that was really cool about the room was the mirror placement. You could stand in the middle of the room and see yourself from EVERY angle. Which can be great, if you are feeling sexy, or can be freaky, if you ate too much at lunch and know there is a whole ship of beautiful men waiting outside your door. There was plenty of closet room and drawer space, and a roomy little fridge (have housekeeping empty it of high-cost goodies for you).

 

Food: Some very goods, and some really bads. The buffet area had an awesome salad bar, which is what we ended up having most nights. Sprouts, cucumbers, peppers, cubed chicken, various cheeses, fresh mushrooms, tomatoes, etc. Awesome if you’re a veggie person. And fun random desserts, though nothing close to the deliciousness of the cookies (note that the cookies in the buffet are NOT the same as the ones in the coffee shop). Also, the French fries were really good – almost like a seasoned fry without the seasoning. I’d read complaints about the burgers not being grilled – they weren’t, but I still thought they were good. The best prepared dinner dishes were the Indian curries – without fail, they were very, very good. (I love Indian food, so I’ve had some exposure.) I asked one of the staff members, and he said all of the cooks are Indian, so that explains it. Also there was plenty of fresh fruit – one day they even had a bowl of kiwi, which I raided and stocked my room up with. If you’re used to the standard American diet, though, I think you’ll be disappointed – a lot of the meat, pizza, and various other prepared dishes I tried were gross enough that I didn’t finish them. I pretty much stuck to chicken breasts, salads, burgers, and fries, but tried a little of almost everything.

 

We only dined in the main dining room twice. The first night, “Night Two,” I started with lobster bisque and escargot (the first time I had escargot was on Carnival, and it was really, really good – buttery and garlicky and a great texture). This, however, was really, really gross. The texture was pure rubber, and it tasted like it was floating in margarine. The lobster bisque was inedible (and I don’t say that lightly – I LOVE lobster bisque all ways – from cheap imitation lobster soup in a can to high-end chunky); it literally tasted like they had boiled lobster shells and added a teeny bit of cream to the broth. Seriously, it was like shell water, and probably the most disgusting thing I have ever tasted (and I really mean that literally– I can’t believe they were serving that to guests). For dinner I had the Eggplant Tower, which was ok – the mozzarella wasn’t great, or horrible. I think I had a scoop of sugar free ice cream for dessert, which was fine.

The presentation of the food compared to Carnival (which was about five years ago, in all fairness) was very lackluster (as opposed to the dining room, which was GORGEOUS on RC but quite funky –bad funky-on Carnival. Though Carnival’s dining rooms had very lovely sea views.) The partner had truffle pasta, which was mostly creamy mushroom flavored goo.

 

The service was very flustered, as though they weren’t sure how to handle the “Seat as you choose” timing. We felt rushed, and had servers hanging over our shoulders waiting for our order – it was very, very chaotic. And I’m not at all picky about service. My partner ran a restaurant (local, family owned, casual-upscale) for ten years, and was horrified at the service, and very uncomfortable. I have no idea if this is a RC issue or just a “getting used to random dining times” thing, but either way, it was very, very distracting.

 

So here, let me just interject that dinner on Carnival was one of my favorite parts of the trip (both trips). I love to cook when I’m at home, and LOVE it when I don’t have to, and love to try new and different things, and NOTHING on Carnival that I tried grossed me out. Some things I wasn’t fond of, taste-wise, but there was nothing that was repulsive or inedible (the lobster bisque and the escargot). And that was eating all seven nights of both trips in the formal dining room, trying multiple entrees, appetizers, and desserts each night. For the first dinner experience to be bad enough that I did not care to try it again for the entire cruise should say something significant. Between the food, the service, the presentation, and the chaos of the free-for-all seating, it felt like an enormous waste of time. And I say that without a bad attitude or hostility – it just felt like a really dumb way to spend vacation time. So for the next four days we ate in 20 minutes at the buffet (another comparison note – Carnival’s buffet area had lots of outside seating, which I LOVED – it was my favorite place to eat lunch or late night snacks, while RCL’s was all inside), and were perfectly happy.

 

On the final night, we ventured back into the lion’s den, not because we wanted to give it another chance, but because we had made some wonderful new friends that we wanted to dine with. We tried to get Portofino’s reservations, but they were full, so main dining room it was. (The partner is vegetarian, so Chops obviously wouldn’t have been all that fair). This night the food was definitely ok – edible and tasty in a wedding banquet kind of fashion. BUT, we also asked the server what dish he recommended (NY Strip) and all ordered that (except the partner, who ordered the Rice Briyani). It still wasn’t as good as Carnival’s food was, but it was fine. The service was on the absolute other end of the spectrum – instead of being rushed, it was slow slow slow. Which was fine for us, because we were enjoying the conversation and time to get to know new friends. It was a decent enough experience that, if I were to sail RCL again, I would give the dining room another chance.

 

The other major thing that happened, though, that was unfortunate, was a wine issue. We ordered a $65ish bottle of wine for our table (the partner ordered, and I watched him do it). He said it by name, AND pointed to it on the wine menu. And the reason I watched him was because we’d borrowed a wine list before hand to go over it to try and figure out which one we wanted to treat our new friends to. So we ordered the wine, and the server brought it to the table, opened it, and passed it around, and we thought nothing more. Actually, I thought nothing more of it until three hours later when we finished dinner. My PARTNER, however, thought nothing more of it until the bill came and was for $167. Because the server had served us the extremely pricey Reserve bottle. Now, maybe this is just us, but I would have responded the same way my partner did if this had happened to me at a dinner with new friends, when you are treating them to a bottle of wine: I would have signed the receipt and not said a damn thing. And that’s what he did. But, telling me about it later, he said that it is well known within the server industry that you most often will get away with sneaking an expensive bottle in in place of the same-label cheaper version.

 

Ultimately we didn’t complain to anyone, mainly because the partner and our friends really had enjoyed the wine (apparently it was quite good – my wine palate isn’t so experienced, so I couldn’t say for sure), and we didn’t want to add any more drama to the experience. So we were fine with paying for it. But it happened, and I think that is something to be aware of for those who are reading reviews. And there is NO WAY that it happened by accident.

 

I tried the flowrider, but not the rock climbing wall – I’m not really sure why I didn’t, because I love rock climbing at home. I think I was having more fun meeting people in the Atlantis crowd, and the sports activities were less important. My main impression, though, was that it was a great setup for kids and families, but not so great for those into being on a ship or watching the water. It was prime real estate used up – it takes up the entire rear of the ship. So, make sure you select a ship based on what you enjoy.

 

We did one RC excursion, to the ruins at Tulum, and it was very nice – organized, well-run, entertaining, and, most of all, beautiful. Tulum, and the beach below it, are absolute paradise. (I can’t contrast any Carnival excursions, because we never took one through the line – they were all private.)

 

Labadee was the other situation where RC really impressed me – not so much because of the island (which was much prettier than Carnival’s), but because of the earthquake. RC mentioned it again and again, and left donation envelopes / forms in the rooms from the first morning on. It was brought up at every gathering that I attended, asking to please help, and noting that a) all excursions purchased at Labadee would 100% be donated to Haiti; and b) RC would match any donation you made. (Atlantis also had similar programs going on.) So I in no way felt like RC ignored the situation. They let us know they were bringing crew and supplies along with us, and asked us again and again to help. I think they did the best they could with the situation.

 

The island itself was pretty – we hiked the trails around to check out the interior. The beaches weren’t as pretty – the prettiest had become a private beach for suite guests (though if you follow the trails you wind up there anyway and bypass the gate). It wasn’t anything spectacular, and I probably wouldn’t get off next time – it was prettier sitting on the top of the ship enjoying the breeze and watching the island’s jungle-covered mountains.

 

In summation, RC didn’t particularly stand out as exceptional as a vacation company, though as a company handling a crisis, they shone. The food was mostly a mess, the crew wasn’t particularly warm or enthusiastic, and the ship felt like a giant mega-resort. Don’t expect to go on the Liberty or its sister ships, or the Allure or Oasis, and feel like you are on the sea. You won’t. You’ll feel like you are in a mall. All that said, though, take everything you read in all of these reviews with a grain of salt – a vacation is as fabulous as you choose to make it, and you are still at a resort where you basically have to do nothing but relax. I had a wonderful time, and even though I would elect a different ship over the Liberty next time, it was still a ROCKIN' vacation!

[OttoCal]

Thanks for your review Roen! I've been looking for one from your week!

 

We were on Liberty the week before your Atlantis cruise and heard from several of the staff that they were a bit nervous for your group charter- mostly because they had several staff meetings where they were really aggressively given specific directions on how to behave during your week- things like don't ask questions of the guests, where as during our week the dining room staff was super friendly and outgoing to us. I think they were nervous. Also told us that there were some major menu changes for the week that worried them a bit, as they wouldn't be able to make recommendations for unfamiliar food. So that's just my take on a bit of the chilly staff reception.

 

Sorry you were dissapointed in the escargot, it's always one of my favorites to order!

 

boo on the wine thing. That stinks! We have had wine issues as well, but got them straightened out.

 

And Portofino and Chops do indeed cater to vegetarians in different ways, and especially if they are given advance notice. No vegetarian would starve in Chops, despite the steakhouse theme.

 

Our Dining Room Bar server was from Haiti and I was amazed at how great his spirits were after he told us that he had injured family members and they were now homeless. :( He said he was just happy they were alive and that was all that mattered. Many on our week also donated money and clothes as well.

 

I think Tulum is really beautiful also. The ocean there is such a beautiful shade of blue!

[Puffinater]

Thanks for the detailed review. I will 100% agree with you on the supposed lobster bisque. It is horrible. Dish water mixed with fish heads.

[RadioRay]

Awesome review. This must have taken hours and your effort is appreciated.

 

The primary reason was because the Liberty did NOT, in any capacity, feel like a ship. I LOVE the sea, and the main thing that I love about cruising is the feeling of being in the middle of such a vast body of saltwater. On the Liberty, though, you had to hunt to find any kind of interaction with the ocean. There were no outside dining areas; the coffee shop (which was otherwise a really cool place to hang out) was buried in the belly of the ship, in the middle of the “Promenade,” a mini-mall of shops and restaurants; almost all of the walking you did funneled you into the middle of the ship; you couldn’t walk along the outside or across the middle unless you were on the topmost deck, and even then, to descend, you had to go back inside and take the elevator or the stairs. (By comparison, on Carnival, I could get almost anywhere without ever going inside.) This might sound like a minor detail, and to some I’m sure it is, but ultimately I felt like I was inside a mega-resort for the bulk of the trip. The front of the ship (the helipad), a beautiful place to sit in the dark and watch the stars, was closed almost like clockwork at nightfall (due to “high winds” which were certainly not in effect every night at 6PM on the nose). The one time I did manage to find it open, I was out there for about 20 minutes when a crewmember came and asked me to leave so they could close it. This was one of the few places to watch the water in front of you and feel the breeze with any kind of sense of quiet – there were a few other places, but they were in the middle of a lot of foot traffic and/or not really set up for sea gazing. Also, there was no place to lounge at the rear of the ship and watch the ocean sail away behind you; the upper decks were taken up by the Flowrider, and the deck below by the Windjammer (buffet). Most of the sides of the ship were glassed in instead of railed – there were very few places to grab a chair and a book, prop your feet up on the rail, and read, listen to the wind, and feel the breeze – the glass panels cut off almost all of the sea air. The pool areas both were walled off with large glass panels, so there was no “open to the sea air” area to swim. And this, to me, really detracted from the experience of being at sea.

 

I did a cruise on Freedom (same class) about a year ago and I totally understand what you're saying. I was lucky on my first leg of my first cruise we were hauling to get to PR on schedule. The weather was good but the seas weren't. 14 foot swells and a 25 MPH headwind. So the net wind on deck was almost 50 MPH. To get to 25 MPH, I think they retracted the stabilizers. That made it even rougher.

 

Everyone WAS feeling the seas. We heard loud bangs sometimes when the bow hit a big wave. Lots of stuff swinging and banging on board. I was on deck 9 and I was feeling the mist from the waves breaking on the bow. Also interesting when a wave breaks over the top of the hot tub and goes all over the deck. Since many people were in their cabin it was like I had the ship to myself. I know this isn't for most people but I really did feel like I was at sea the first couple of days.

 

After that, it was too smooth for me. Boring really after that ride. Here's what I did to compensate: Every night, after dinner, I took a slow walk on deck 4. This is the lowest outside deck that has rails. Dim lighting, nothing high tech, no noise other than the waves. THIS is where it feels like a ship. I made sure I did a couple laps here every day and night. It's also like a step back in time. Yes, the helo pad was closed but with 50 MPH winds, I can understand. It's also too dark there for safety. They can't light that part of the ship because it would be too bright for night vision on the bridge. There were some calmer nights that really should have that area open. We need to complain about that. It's one of the only places you can see stars. Way too much light pollution on the higher decks.

 

About the indoor passage ways, imagine a cruise when there's lots of rain. You would appreciate that you can get from place to place without getting wet. I also suspect they make ships so they can do more northern routes as they get closer to retirement. Also a good reason to keep everyone indoors.

 

Idea for some future ship: A public area at the waterline near the bow. Just a nice sized port hole window to see the sea and the waves hitting the bow. Not for everyone but I would love it. That's where the crew lives so I doubt if it's practical idea, but it would still be cool to be that low with a view.

 

I may respond to more of your review in another message. A lot of great information to take in. Thanks again.

 

A question... do you consider the higher price you paid for the Atlantis trip to be worth the money? I compared the rates and it's way more expensive. Seems like fun but I don't know if it's THAT much more fun.

 

Thanks

 

Ray

[roen]

Hey Otto - thanks for the insight. That is really interesting - they certainly were not interactive at all. I wonder why they were instructed to act that way? There was definitely a reserved quality that felt like they were trying to stay away from us. Hmm...

 

 

Hey Ray! Glad you liked it - I was afraid it was overkill :). The winds on yours sound awesome. The first Carnival one I took was like that - one night I was up on the very top (there was a beautiful isolated spot on the very top front where you could wedge yourself in front of these glass panels and just get slammed by the breeze), it was so windy that I almost had to crawl back in. Not safe, exactly, but exhilarating and beautiful.

I did find deck 4 on Liberty, and that was where I was most nights after spending an hour at the dances. There was a spot in front of the dining room where the walkway bulges out and you're actually exposed to the wind - that was the only place I found to kick back with a book.

 

I've got part two of the review to post in the G&L section of the board (all about the Atlantis experience) - I'm just about done tweaking it :). But, to answer your question, I absolutely think it was worth it for the Atlantis premium. I don't really think Atlantis did that much besides getting all of us guys together, but that alone made for the hands-down best vacation I've ever been on. I don't know that I would ever take a regular cruise vacation again, unless it was a big family group. We're booked on next Feb's RSVP Caribbean (to try out Holland America- the partner was on it many years ago and said it was very regal and shiplike, and to try RSVP to compare the crowds), and I booked that as soon as I knew it was available. I was really depressed for two or three weeks after getting back home, and I'm still trying to figure out ways to recreate some of the social environment that was on the ship. It was incredible :).

 

Feel free to drop me a PM if you have any specific questions - I would love to chat more about it! (Obviously :).)

[RickyandLucy]

Hi roen, loved your review. Your a lovely writer. I'd love to read your Atlantis review but I do not know what G&L is.

 

Lucy

[roen]

Hi roen, loved your review. Your a lovely writer. I'd love to read your Atlantis review but I do not know what G&L is.

 

Lucy

 

Thanks Lucy! :) The G&L board is the Gay & Lesbian area of Cruise Critic. Here's a link to the 2nd half:

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?p=23709567

[OttoCal]

Roen, checked out your other review on the G&L boards- that was great too. As a general FYI, we did see what I would consider an average number of gay couples on our cruise the week before, average meaning more than a few but not a lot. Does that make sense?

 

I can't speculate on why the staff was instructed to be less interactive with the Atlantis group, it either had to come from RCI or at the very least the Liberty upper staff or from Atlantis I guess? I wonder which and why? There are theme cruises all the time. It does sound like it was noticeable though, and that's a bummer. I think it is something you should consider updating Atlantis about :confused:. I think it may be helpful for them to know.

 

Hey Otto - thanks for the insight. That is really interesting - they certainly were not interactive at all. I wonder why they were instructed to act that way? There was definitely a reserved quality that felt like they were trying to stay away from us. Hmm...

 

 

:).)

[RickyandLucy]

Cool. Thanks roen. Your reviews made me feel like I was there.

 

Lucy

[sjb317]

Nice review! I understand how you feel about being out on the ocean, that is my primary reason for cruising, and I think that feeling is lacking on the larger ships. For that reason, we like the Radiance class, they have more of an open feel, and we love the outdoor eating area at the Windjammer. However, I do like the Mariner and Explorer ships for one reason: the helipad at night! My favorite thing to do on a cruise ship is just to sit there and enjoy the stars. We were lucky, the times we have cruised it was open more than closed.

Thanks again for the review!

Sherri:)

[marci22]

I will 100% agree with you on the supposed lobster bisque. It is horrible. Dish water mixed with fish heads.

 

lol, I don't like it either!

[newcruiser80]

Thanks for the detailed review. I will 100% agree with you on the supposed lobster bisque. It is horrible. Dish water mixed with fish heads.

 

I love it! I'm convinced the bisque is reused "lobster sauce" from the shrimp ravioli the night before...

[Manetamers]

Hello Roen.... thanks for the review.... we(3) couples are booked on the Liberty in Sept.2011.. we booked this more for the ports(Spain,France,Italy).... I have never been on this large of a ship(smaller ones and I like Holland America..our friends did not) ... we all have balconies so that will help with seeing the sea and reading etc... knowing about the 4th deck too.... when we cruise we like to do late seating and enjoy the company(will watch the wine bill)... but each cruise lines has good and bad... but the adventure of seeing the world is wonderful... have a great day.... Trudy