New Azamara--What Value Vs. Oceania

[Reggiefan]

Regarding the relative strengths and weaknesses of Azamara and Oceania, there have been in recent years any number of threads on this forum and the Oceania forum.

 

With the recent Azamara, my question--as someone who has never cruised, has thought seriously about an Azamara or Oceania cruise in the past, and is likely to book a 2011 cruise on the one of these two lines--is what value does Azamara currently offer compared to Oceania.

 

Note my question is not whether because of pricing Azamara 12 months ago offered greater value than it does today. Again, the question is, even given the increase in Azamara pricing, does that line offer comparable value to the value offered by Oceania?

 

Based on the price comparisons I have done for two people for a veranda cabin on comparable cruises, Oceania is still per night more expensive than Azamara. On Oceania, the price is in the $800-860 range (with a premium charged for Oceania's new and somewhat larger ship) whereas on Azamara the price seems to be in the range of $760 per night. Additionally, if I understand correctly some of the changes made by Azamara--such as free house wine and gratuities included--those changes might carry a value of $50 per night. If I am wrong, please set me straight because I am trying to make an intelligent selection next year. However, in an apples to apples comparison, it seems that the cost of an Oceania cruise is about a $100 per night more than the cost of an Azamara cruise.

 

Based on what I have simply read, the advantages with Oceania are somewhat better dining and other food choices, more cachet, and a sense of security in that Oceania seems to do some small things (such as delivering information about its cruise products) better than Azamara.

 

Most on this board know far better than I do whether my analysis makes sense. Hence, I pose the question: Despite unhappiness with the Azamara pricing increase, does that line today offer comparable value to that offered by Oceania?

[California Native]

Are you cruising to cruise or are you cruising for the ports

What is your #1 priority experience?

If ports pay a key role could you please mention the itineraries

Since you haven't cruised before..the ports might

seem similiar, but their could be significant reasons

why I would choose one itinerary over the other

Also, are you looking at the same exact cabin on both sailings or just balcony in general

What kind of traveller/tourist are you??

K.

[crzrr]

Like you, we have done a similar comparison as we were looking at booking an Oceania cruise for next year. Because Azamara had taken so long to come out with the European itineraries for 2011 we looked at Oceania. However, once Azamara came out with the itineraries, we immediately booked a b2b European itinerary with them.

 

We are in our late 40's. We have sailed Azamara 3 times and have not sailed Oceania. However, apparently you can't sail on Azamara without having people who have sailed Oceania tell you the differences, or lack thereof.

 

The feedback that we have heard is that they are very comparable. We have been told that the specialty restaurants on Azamara are far superior to Oceania. Some have said that the main dining room on Oceania is superior to Azamara. Once again, food is always so subjective. I have read reviews on the same cruise that we have been on where a poster has stated that the food was awful and we came back 5 lbs. heavier! I think that you would find the food to be comparable on both. We have found the food and beverage people on Azamara to be very open to helping out if you have a need or desire that has not been met.

 

In terms of the physical state of the ships, Azamara knows that there is work to be done and they seem to be addressing the situation. For the most part, the ships are beautiful. However, there are areas like the pool area where a significant amount of work needs to be done. From a posting on this week's Transatlantic on Journey, it would appear that issue is being addressed.

 

One area that we have repeatedly been told that Azamara outshines Oceania in is friendliness of service. Once again, service can be somewhat subjective. We have found the service to be beyond excellent from bartenders who not only remember your name but also your drink preference to waitstaff who are waiting for you at lunch with your favorite diet soda on hand. Plus, they are constantly asking how you are doing and if there is anything that they can do for you. We are pretty easygoing so I'm not sure that they could do anymore for us than they do.

 

As they distinguish themselves from Celebrity we are hoping that areas such as delays in itineraries and consistency of customer service precruise at the main office improves.

 

We are lucky enough to be able to sail with anyone of our choosing. While we have looked at Oceania, Seabourn, SeaDream and RSSC, we keep coming back to Azamara. We have thoroughly enjoyed the cruises that we have taken with them and feel we are getting the same experience for a less per day cost (and we like getting a good deal). That being said, when Azamara makes the changes that they know they need to make and improves in areas where it has been noted by senior management, staff and passengers, that improvement is needed, we feel that we might actually see that price differential become smaller or nonexistant. And we would still sail with them in a heartbeat if the itinerary was right.

 

While I know that this post is not exactly what you asked for, I hope that it helps. IMHO, no cruise is a bad cruise but I think that you will have a wonderful time on an Azamara cruise.

[Reggiefan]

The question as to what type of travel we are interested in is difficult to answer because there are two different people who will be travelling. Italy will be the focus of the trip. Though I have been to Europe before, I have not been to Italy and am more willing to consider a cruise or a tour for this trip than if I were going to another part of Europe.

 

I suspect on any cruise--regardless of cruise line and itinerary--a big part of the trip is the cruise experience, though our emphasis is more on the itinerary than the cruise ship.

 

With regard to the specific itinerary, we are looking for a cruise that begins in one city and ends in another, and anticipate spending some additional time in those two cities. Ideally, we would like the two cities to be Rome and Venice, though I have seen one or two cruises where the cities are Rome and Marseilles/ Nice that are possibilities.

 

It seems that Oceania is charging a premium for sailing on the Marina than on its other ships, though for veranda cabins the premium does not seem substantial. I recognize that the Marina is a new and larger ship with larger cabins, so comparing the value of Oceania and Azamara becomes a tad more difficult. But it seems overall, regardless of the Oceania ship, that Oceania charges about $500 or more for a veranda cabin (not concierge level) than Azamara; that Azamara offers some additional services for the base price that add value to an Azamara cruise; and that overall the Azamara 2011 cruises spend a bit more time in port than do the Oceania cruises.

 

In my original post, I used the word "cachet", and as noted above, that probably was not the term I should have used. It does appear that Oceania has more brand name, which is based in large part in the quality of the product it has delivered in the past.

 

On this forum, there seems to be much criticism about the increase in Azamara's pricing. My sense is that the market niche for Azamara previously was Oceania Lite, a product fairly comparable to, though perhaps a tad less than, Oceania's, but with a markedly lower price. Azamara's price still seems lower, though the difference is no longer substantial.

 

And that's the reason for the original post. Assuming a 5-10 percent difference in pricing between the two lines (with the difference taking into account expenses for which Azamara once charged separately and are now part of the base price), is Azamara good value? It may be that the difference in quality and pricing between the two lines is now so small that cruise decisions will be for the most part itinerary-driven. It may be that the two lines are so similar that a 5-10 percent difference in pricing matters. It may be that a difference in quality between the two lines is such that the slightly higher Oceania pricing doesn't matter. And as I type, I suspect that the first of the three choices--that itinerary is the overriding factor--is the one that most will agree with.

 

One last note: A question was asked about what importance I attach to price in selecting a cruise. The answer is some, though I do not have a stringent budget ceiling and prefer to talk about value. Within reason, if a product is worth it, I don't paying the price. If I don't need a $800 coat, I am not buying it. I don't mind paying $400 for a $400 coat. I do mind paying $200 for a $150 coat. I suspect that I am like many of you.

[California Native]

I've done Italy by land ..a total of 6 weeks, with total immersion

I've done Italy by cruise too many times to remember

If Italy is your focus...

It should be done by land.

Now with that said, how long do you have for your vacation?? and I'm still wondering about the itinerary, port times etc etc..

If you want me to break it down on what itinerary is truly the best I need that.

Your question while seemingly simple is not..

but if you want a simple yes or no

then YES, AZ is a good value.

[Paulchili]

With regard to the specific itinerary, we are looking for a cruise that begins in one city and ends in another, and anticipate spending some additional time in those two cities. Ideally, we would like the two cities to be Rome and Venice, though I have seen one or two cruises where the cities are Rome and Marseilles/ Nice that are possibilities.

 

I think that is a very good way to expand your exploration of Italy.

While I agree with where2next that a land trip is a better way to fully enjoy Italy, the cruise gives you a better value as your costs are more or less "fixed" and you pay in US $s (mostly). If you travel on land, it is likely to cost a lot more, especially paying mostly in Euros.

[California Native]

I think that is a very good way to expand your exploration of Italy.

While I agree with where2next that a land trip is a better way to fully enjoy Italy, the cruise gives you a better value as your costs are more or less "fixed" and you pay in US $s (mostly). If you travel on land, it is likely to cost a lot more, especially paying mostly in Euros.

 

Totally agree with Paulchili...

If you want the same exact hotel and dining experience on land that you will receive on AZ or Oceania

it will probably cost you 3x as much...and that's being generous more likely 4 times as much...

Budget hotels in Rome are running about 200 Euros this November and that's LOW SEASON..if you want to sit down at a table to eat your food and not a park bench or pigeon pooped church step that will cost you A LOT!!! I've seen menus with Pizza Margherita for 20 Euros. You can walk around eating eating a crepe in France for 3 euros, if you want to sit at a table that same EXACT crepe is now 8 euros So imagine the cost if you want the same level as a cruise ship

Now if you want immersion...we are pros at staying on a

budget while having a PHENOMENAL and AUTHENTIC experience and still avoiding hostels and top ramen.

that's why on other threads I've expressed frustration with people complaining about AZ raising their prices.

[Reggiefan]

Because we are talking about value and because I started this thread, I will respond regarding now the cost of a cruise versus the cost of a land cruise. My comments presuppose the following:

 

1. With a cruise, the cruise line will be Azamara or Oceania.

 

2. With a cruise, a standard veranda cabin will be booked. No concierge level. No suite. But a balcony.

 

3. With a land tour, the cost of train travel obviously has to be factored in. But with a land tour, I have no intent to travel by train any distance to a new destination every second day. Say three main destinations over a 10 day period. Some travel from each main destination site, but travel comparable to what would be done from several cruise ports.

 

4. With a land tour, our dining selections out of choice will frequently be less grand than they will be on an Azamara or Oceania cruise. In fact, the intent is not to gain 10 pounds.

 

With alcohol, gratuities and the costs incurred with land travel during the cruise, it looks as though the cost of a cruise for two is close to $900-1,000, if not greater, per night on Azamara or especially Oceania. If I am showing my ignorance, please correct me. But I have difficulty believing that land travel is substantially more expensive than $900 per night.

 

I don't claim to be an experienced European traveler, but last summer I was in London, Paris, Vienna and Salzburg, and we found very nice lodging--for four. I have no question that the rooms at the hotels I stayed at in Paris and Salzburg (we rented an apartment in London) are nicer than a veranda cabin on Azamara or Oceania and probably are going for $275-300 this May.

 

Also, I see what appear to be smaller high quality land tours in Italy that provide four star hotel lodging, many meals, land tours and land transportation for $700 per night.

 

Not trying to be argumentative or disagreeable because I know people responded to my original question with the intent to be helpful--which I do appreciate. But I am not sure I understand the comments about a cruise being considerably less expensive than land travel--at least not within the parameters stated above.

[California Native]

Because we are talking about value and because I started this thread, I will respond regarding now the cost of a cruise versus the cost of a land cruise. My comments presuppose the following:

 

 

Not trying to be argumentative or disagreeable because I know people responded to my original question with the intent to be helpful--which I do appreciate. But I am not sure I understand the comments about a cruise being considerably less expensive than land travel--at least not within the parameters stated above.

 

There was a reason I asked for the SPECIFIC itinerary, on both Azamara and Oceania

knowing the EXACT itinerary which I have asked for allows me to do a proper number crunch, that includes the land

tour you have checked out.

For Example

What it costs to stay in Portifino versus Santa Margherita Ligure can be a 300 Euro difference. However, you can have same experience

with a 11 euro ferry ride...

 

There was a reason I asked for room category, not all balcony categories

cost the same and NOT all them are actually in a great position..

but since you haven't cruised you wouldn't know that

I'm willingly to take my time to assist you,

based on my 35 years of cruising since I was small child and over 500 days at sea..

and while you have been to Europe,

in that category I also have vast more experience with immersion travel travelling to 27 countries and over 80 cities.

not only stay in 2 star hotels but many of the Leading Hotels of the World

You can theorize and surmise all you want, but if you don't provide specific information...

nothing will be accomplished in finding out what are the pros and cons of the quandry you find yourself in

[crzrr]

I think that your figures might be a little high for Azamara. We just booked a b2b for next year (great itinerary if you are looking for Italy/Greek Isles 4/24/2011 and 5/1/2011 on Journey!) We have a veranda cabin (7026) on both legs. Our total for 2 without air works out to $697 per night. We never book air through the cruiseline. If we don't use ff miles, we have found that we can do better pricewise on our own. I did a similar comparison on Oceania and I believe that it was closer to the $900 per night that you mentioned. We have taken both land tours and cruises. We enjoy the cruises because you unpack once and it is just a bit more relaxing.

[Paulchili]

Reggie fan,

If you are going to compare cruise prices to land tours, you must compare apples to apples.

You mention staying in 3 main places over 10 days on a land trip - on a cruise you will see more than 3 places in 10 days. I am not saying that this is better, just that you are not comparing apples to apples. On a cruise you can have a full breakfast, lunch and dinner (with sodas, coffee, some wine, etc). If you do that on a land trip, it will cost plenty (eating in similar “style” restaurants and not in cafes). There is no question that one can eat cheaply and skip lunch, etc but then you cannot compare the cost to a cruise unless you will eat likewise on a ship (i.e. having a very light breakfast and skipping lunch, for example). This would not apply to me – I am sure get my “money’s worth” eating on a cruise ship but think twice before spending 25 -35 Euro/pp on a full breakfast in a hotel..

There are unquestionably differences between land trips and cruises. One allows you to see places in more depth – the other allows you to move from place to place effortlessly, without repacking (among other things). You can control the cost of a land trip more than a fix priced cruise, but you must compare similar things to be fair in your comparison.

Ultimately, only you can decide which type of an experience fits your needs better. Finally, I think that if you can get a good itinerary and a good price on Azamara, you should be well satisfied with the experience and it probably will be a better value (not necessarily a better experience) than Oceania.

JMO

[TraelorMex]

Having sailed both Azamara (Journey) and Holland America, I would recommend you cruise with Holland America...

[Redtravel]

I have sailed on HAL. It doesn't start to compare to Azamara. For me, Azamara is much better than HAL. HAL is great for families. Good entertainment and kids programs, mediocre food, big cabins, and inexpensive excursions and poor service. It's great with a big group. It's usually a good price especially when you take a large group. Azamara is great for couples who like peace and quiet. Leave the family and large group home. Azamara has better food, no kids activities, mediocre entertainment, small cabins, great library,excellent excursions, and great service. If price is your objective, you get a lot of value on HAL. I value the service and relaxed style without kids which is why I value paying more for Azamara. Choice is yours. I pick Azamara not HAL(unless I am bringing the family and paying ..it's cheaper)

[California Native]

The only ship that Holland America has that is somewhat similiar in size to AZ and Oceania is the Prinsendam.

While the Prinsendam has the pedigree of a traditonal cruise ship since it was formerly a Royal Viking ship

 

it's not in the same league from an interior design aspect.

Personally, I love the Prinsendam and I've sailed on her several times when she was with Royal Viking and Holland America

However, I dont think Prinsendam's itinerary will work for this OP, nor do I think

he would be happy with the ship

[Reggiefan]

Several questions and issues raised:

 

1. If I were to travel by land, I am not sure what the itinerary would be, though I am sure it would be different from any cruise itinerary. For example, traveling my land, I would not go to Portofino.

 

However, regarding specific cruise itineraries, here goes:

 

--Oceania has a cruise on Marina departing on April 26, 2011 and the same cruise on another ship departing on June 3, 2011. The April 26 cruise itinerary is as follows: Rome, Monte Carlo, La Spezia, Livorno, Amalfi, Taormina, Corfu, Kotor, Dubrovnik and Venice (one night). The June 3 tour starts in Venice and ends in Rome. For whatever reason, the time in port seems a tad longer on the April 26 tour. The base cost for the least expensive veranda cabin (veranda stateroom 4 on Marina, B2 veranda stateroom on the other Oceania ship)--no air, no insurance, no transfers, nothing else--is for two people $8,028 on the April 26 cruise and $7,948 on the June 3 cruise. The cruise is 10 nights.

 

--Azamara has a cruise departing Rome on April 17, 2011. The cruise is seven nights. The itinerary is as follows: Rome, Sorrento, Taormina, Corfu (one night), Dubrovnik and Venice (one night). I was told the base cost for a veranda cabin for that cruise is $5,340. I do not know the cabin number or the veranda level, and for my purposes at this time, the information that I received is sufficient.

 

2. I concede that the cost on land of eating out if we were trying to replicate one taking full advantage of the dining options on a nice cruise would be considerable. However, were I travel on land, we would eat light for breakfast and lunch, and would not eat an expensive meal every evening. The concern is not cost. I am not interested in returning from Europe 10 pounds heavier. Further, on a cruise ship, I imagine that we would eat light for breakfast and would eat lunch frequently ashore.

 

3. I have considered Holland America. Minor concerns are the formal nights (though I understand there are options for those who do not wish to dress up) and the amount of smoking on Holland America ships (a concern based on hearsay). Minor issues. Bigger issues are that usually with Holland America cruises it appears the embark and disembark cities are the same and there are more sea days. The bottom line for 2011: I simply do not see an itinerary for the April-early June period that I like.

 

To those who have asked questions in the last few posts, I hope this information helps.

[Jade13]

 

I'm willingly to take my time to assist you,

 

based on my 35 years of cruising since I was small child and over 500 days at sea..

 

and while you have been to Europe,

in that category I also have vast more experience with immersion travel travelling to 27 countries and over 80 cities.

not only stay in 2 star hotels but many of the Leading Hotels of the World

 

I actually would have guessed you had been to closer to 100 countries. Do you mostly travel in Europe?

[Jade13]

I think that your figures might be a little high for Azamara. We just booked a b2b for next year (great itinerary if you are looking for Italy/Greek Isles 4/24/2011 and 5/1/2011 on Journey!) We have a veranda cabin (7026) on both legs. Our total for 2 without air works out to $697 per night. We never book air through the cruiseline. If we don't use ff miles, we have found that we can do better pricewise on our own. I did a similar comparison on Oceania and I believe that it was closer to the $900 per night that you mentioned. We have taken both land tours and cruises. We enjoy the cruises because you unpack once and it is just a bit more relaxing.

 

Is that with or with taxes? A 12 night we are looking at is higher on Journey, but it is for August, not April or May.

[Reggiefan]

On Azamara, with taxes. I believe the Oceania fares include taxes, but the numbers come from the Oceania website.

[crzrr]

The figures that I quoted are our exact charges with taxes, no insurance, no air. They do include the $300 per cruise discount for b2b's.

 

Jade - August might be higher because it is holiday in Europe. I think that April/May is going to be fabulous. It looks like nice temperatures at that time and should not be too crowded.

[California Native]

I actually would have guessed you had been to closer to 100 countries. Do you mostly travel in Europe?

 

 

That's just Europe...and we go everywhere

[California Native]

I have gone to the websites and checked out the itinerarys

and specifically not only the ports and the port times

I have visited each of these ports by land and/or cruise ship

Since Marina is a totally different ship I will look at that seperately

Between the AZ April 17 sailing and the O June 3rd sailing

By far Oceania has the BEST itinerary...not only for ports, but for port times...Kotor is a wonderful little town, however you need only 1 day to see it and to travel abit farther a field a go to Perast..which is a MUST!

Logistically by land you will spend at a minimum for a driver to take you to Montenegro for the day from Dubrovnik a couple hundred euro. Factor that in the equation.

The port times for Dubrovnik are really good.

To get to Dubrovnik by land takes either a inter Europe flight from Zagreb or a ferry from Split, Croatia...thats time and money..There is no train that goes to Dubrovnik.

The rest of the port times are just so-so and nothing special

that any other cruiseline out there can provide.

Besides that I think this itinerary is waaaayy over priced. I honestly

don't think you will be getting your monies worth. You are in a port everyday, and except for sail away..your balcony won't be used much for the price you are shelling out.

To me this is not a good value for your money.

Azamara...

Honestly, compared to other sailings that Azamara does..I don't think the port times are that great on this itinerary.

I'm not sure if you realize this ...but if you are in tender port

take off 1 hour of the end of your day...for example in Sorrento it says

departure at 6pm, in reality the last tender leaves at 5pm..

If the ship is docked you need to be back 30 minutes prior.

I'm not convinced that this particular sailing is really giving you enough bang for your buck.

Now I will check out the Marina sailing...

[California Native]

Marina...

absolutely not..

Horrible times for Dubrovnik and Amalfi

Kotor is charming ...you are there way too long.

Also, I want to point out ...

that you should be AWARE of May 1st and where your ship will be if you cruise at that time

May 1st in Europe is equivalent to our Labor Day...

this is all through Europe...

and they take this opportunity to close everything down, strike, rally protest...that life is totally unfair...

of course they do this throughout the year, but May 1st is a definate!

there is also a few saints days in different countries in May, so be aware of that for possible closures

What are your date timeframes? how long can you be gone... what is your objective of the countries that you MUST visit?

[California Native]

I actually would have guessed you had been to closer to 100 countries. Do you mostly travel in Europe?

 

I forgot to add after next year we have 12 more countries to visit in Europe..

but I don't think that list will be crossed of anytime soon...

we need to wait a bit longer on Belarus, Macedonia, and Kosovo

We've been to all the continents except Antartica..

and that my dear..you have me beat on!!! :D

[Susan-M]

The bottom line for 2011: I simply do not see an itinerary for the April-early June period that I like.

 

 

That's a good reason for doing a land trip, unless you are willing to compromise on a cruise itinerary by going to some places that aren't high on your list of interests.

 

We're very particular when it comes to choosing a cruise itinerary, and more often than not, we choose land travel vs. cruising since we can pick our own itinerary.

 

When we do cruise, we like port intensive ones. We've always had a port or two that didn't seem to hold a lot of interest at first glance, but with some research and advance planning, those ports have turned out to be great places to visit.

 

Value is important to us, but rather than comparing exact per day costs of land vs. cruise, I do a more general calculation of what our total costs are going to be, and then look at whether we are getting the most out of our time for the money spent. Rather than comparing eating/drinking costs for the same types of meals on a ship vs on land (since we eat very differently on one vs. the other), I look at what we can accomplish in sightseeing during the same time period.

[Reggiefan]

Where2next, since you have taken the time to review the cruise itineraries--thank you--and have expressed an interest in assisting, I will take you up on your kind offer. My caveat is that I have no definitive plans, though I do have general ideas on which I am trying to gather information and through which I am trying to sift.

 

The general ideas:

 

1. Time. The time frame is fairly fixed. Next year. Probably April through early June. Mid- to late October is a possibility. Because of heat and crowds, I want to avoid late June, July and August. Because of the part of the country where I live, I cannot go from late August to early October because I do not want to be in Europe during hurricane season.

 

2. Place. Definitely the Mediterranean; would like to see Rome and Venice; would like Italy to be a good part of any cruise; and would like Italy to be the focus of any land trip.

 

3. Duration. I have a slight bit of flexibility. But ideally would like the trip to be about 14 to 15 days including the days on which we arrive and depart.

 

4. Interest in cruise. Fairly high, but not a must. This is an anniversary trip. My wife cruised on a large cruise ship in the Caribbean perhaps 28 years ago and did not care for the experience. I have never cruised. A cruise that is port-intensive, that uses a smaller ship, and that does not have formal nights sounds appealing. Eventually we will try a cruise, though again it does not necessarily have to be this trip.

 

5. Trip structure. Except for one-day trips or city walks, I have never used a tour company. However, my wife and I do not speak a word of Italian (whereas last year in France family members on the trip spoke some French and in Germany I know a bit of German). And I (and on any trip I will be the tour guide between the two of us) lack the knowledge of Italy that I have had of other countries I have visited. As a result, I am looking for some level of structure in any trip to Italy and will be looking at smaller tour companies with regard to land travel.

 

6. Interests. Principally the natural beauty, the architecture and the culture of the country. I have a serious interest in history, though not necessarily in classical history or the Renaissance. I have a serious interest in politics, though I am not going to spend any time looking at things governmental in Italy. And we both have only a modest interest in art museums.

 

This is the best I can currently do.

 

So I will ask the general questions:

 

1. Does a cruise sound like a good idea for us? If so, I take it we are looking at the right cruise lines.

 

2. With a Med cruise, what would be your favorite itinerary?

 

Thanks in advance for your help.