Tips on avoiding tips please

[Biro]

Lynn

If you have proof that cruise lines pay waiters $50 dollars a month i will bow to your knowledge i am not arguing with you but arguing with the numerous posts as to the low rate of pay even in this thread a poster states that waiters earn 50 cents a day.

My copy and paste from the jobs site as you point out does not cleary state the wage make up ie company input and gratuities however most posts on wages usually begin with a waiter told me or i have a friend do you think that we are sometimes the victim of a slight con trick.

[Sir Tipalot-Knott]

I am sorry if my post offended anybody - it was just meant to be a little bit of light-hearted fun!!!:o

[asda]

Try Butlins or Blackpool as cruising is obviously not in your budget

 

please dont call butlins or blackpool.we have done both many times. about 10 years ago at butlins we paid over £1000 for 4 nights in premier accomodation, and blackpool now as at least five boutique hotels which are excellent.

[UKBayern]

Lynn

If you have proof that cruise lines pay waiters $50 dollars a month i will bow to your knowledge i am not arguing with you but arguing with the numerous posts as to the low rate of pay even in this thread a poster states that waiters earn 50 cents a day.

My copy and paste from the jobs site as you point out does not cleary state the wage make up ie company input and gratuities however most posts on wages usually begin with a waiter told me or i have a friend do you think that we are sometimes the victim of a slight con trick.

 

I just can't add up: 50/30 is not $0.50, I'm sorry for the confusion.... Being from the hospitality business and knowing people who have applied at the cruiselines and seen job vacancies, yes it is true. The wait staff gets $50 a month from the cruiseline and the rest comes out of tips. The "2200" is just a ballpark-figure they use to lure staff. If the cruiseline could get away with free labour, they probably would. If they pay people $50 it is suddenly work and not slavery. Now they are on the payroll and not stowaways.

 

The word tips is just wrong, why not call it "service charge" or "service tax" or something like that. Unfortunately, travel agencies are not honest about tips. I see ads for cruises here in Germany all the time with the text "tips not included, tips are at your discretion and voluntary". Most Germans go on a cruise believing they do not have to tip and they will not either if travelagents keep behaving this way.

[LynnKnicker]

.... Being from the hospitality business and knowing people who have applied at the cruiselines and seen job vacancies, yes it is true. The wait staff gets $50 a month from the cruiseline and the rest comes out of tips. The "2200" is just a ballpark-figure they use to lure staff. If the cruiseline could get away with free labour, they probably would. If they pay people $50 it is suddenly work and not slavery. Now they are on the payroll and not stowaways.

 

.

 

Lynn

If you have proof that cruise lines pay waiters $50 dollars a month i will bow to your knowledge i am not arguing with you but arguing with the numerous posts as to the low rate of pay even in this thread a poster states that waiters earn 50 cents a day.

.

 

Could not have explained it better UKBayern.

Thanks

[Biro]

Could not have explained it better UKBayern.

Thanks

 

Once again a reply which begins I KNOW PEOPLE what i am trying to establish is evidence of what a wage is not hearsay evidence

[lostinvegas]

Could either Lynn or UKBayern give us a link or show us where they are getting their figures from? I am not saying your not correct but to me it just sounds like more figures being picked out of the air. I work in the entertainments industry but could not tell you how much the entertainments staff on a cruise ship get paid.

 

At least the person who quoted P&O's website had a source for their information. I agree its carefully written so it does not say how much of the pay is made up from tips and how much is basic pay.

 

Bottom line is I think its time the cruise lines came out and gave us some info on this with proof.

 

At the end of the day a tip is just that a tip. If we are supposed to be paying these peoples wages then we should be told. I do wonder how much the laundry staff etc... (who don't get tips) get paid.

 

The whole thing is a no win situation.

 

The only way these staff would get a decent basic wage (if in fact it is only $50 a month) is if all of us stopped tipping. In the end the cruise companies would not manage to get anyone to work for them on such low pay.

 

But then I would feel terribly guilty.

 

I assume while on ship the staff get their accommodation and food etc... paid for which is at least something.

 

I think its time someone like Donald McIntire investigated the situation with wages on cruise ships. I am very suspicious of automatic tipping, do the tips actually go to the staff that earn them? are they distributed fairly? I am not a fan of this system at all.

 

Chris

[LynnKnicker]

I am not saying your not correct but to me it just sounds like more figures being picked out of the air.

At the end of the day a tip is just that a tip. If we are supposed to be paying these peoples wages then we should be told. I do wonder how much the laundry staff etc... (who don't get tips) get paid.

 

 

I think its time someone like Donald McIntire investigated the situation with wages on cruise ships. I am very suspicious of automatic tipping, do the tips actually go to the staff that earn them? are they distributed fairly? I am not a fan of this system at all.

 

Chris

 

Hi Chris. At the end of the day a tip is a tip, you say.

To perople living in North America, they understand that tipping goes with the service. To Europeans, they havnt a clue about tipping. Most dont.

P.S. Who is Donald McIntire ?

[goose30]

It is very true that people always see the world from their prospective. Many folks feel that the crew receive paltry wages. Their wages may be low from the point of view of the commentator. However, it is doubtful that the crew member sees it as paltry. If they did why would they have taken the job in the first place. And don't forget to include what the crew member receives, food, lodging etc. with a land job these would have to be paid out of the workers pocket.

 

That being said. IF YOU CAN AFFORD THE CRUISE YOU CAN AFFORD THE TIPS. SERVICE CHARGE OR WHATEVER YOU CALL IT. IF NOT STAY HOME.l

 

thank you.

[LynnKnicker]

That being said. IF YOU CAN AFFORD THE CRUISE YOU CAN AFFORD THE TIPS. SERVICE CHARGE OR WHATEVER YOU CALL IT. IF NOT STAY HOME.l

 

thank you.

.

Great sentence.

I love it, and agree 100%.

people should not stiff the service staff

[UKBayern]

Could either Lynn or UKBayern give us a link or show us where they are getting their figures from?

 

You ask, I provide....

 

Check here for example: http://www.cruisecritic.com/articles.cfm?ID=1059

or

http://ezinearticles.com/?Why-Americans-Fail-at-Sea&id=1574916

American David Bruns worked on a Carnival ship and wrote a book about it.

or here if you want to read a real heartbreaking story on appaling working conditions and total contempt of the most basic labour and human rights (and yes, the 50 bucks is also mentioned here):

http://www.cruisejunkie.com/ot.html

 

Let me post the most important comments Bruns made in both the book and in other articles online and from this interview with Cruise Critic:

 

"Once you're officially working on the ship, regular shifts are three shifts a day, seven days a week, 80-plus hours a week, with no days off for eight months".

"Tipping is serious stuff. It represents well over 95% of what the crew makes. Carnival gave me something around $60 a month or so when it was all said and done. "Salary" also included the cabin you share, plenty of food and two crew parties a month. There was also an unfulfilled promise of medical care, but I knew several waiters who either got sick or had some sort of chronic condition who were immediately sent home indefinitely without pay. A few women who became pregnant while working onboard were immediately sent home without pay, as well. I don't remember the exact amount, but it was less than $80 for sure."

"Tips were everything. Auto-tips were a Godsend, because anyone who thinks he/she tips enough voluntarily is usually wrong"

 

" Slave Wages Overview: One website offering services to help get hired on ships had the ludicrous statement that wages were comparable to the same job on land. That is a blatant lie. If the wages are the same, why aren't there any Americans working on American ships owned by American companies?"

 

"I was disciplined by Carnival for mentioning the ship pays waiters almost nothing: the 'voluntary' tips of guests are the only money they see."

 

"Sometimes you sign off on the wrong side of the earth and have to make your own way back home. No one talks about how a $1,500 a month salary can be devoured by flying across planet earth twice (more expensive one-way trip tickets, remember)." (With "salary" he means what people make on tips)

 

The other article from Ross Klein is so bad that I could quote the whole article....

[2irisheyes]

UKBayern - Thanks very much for posting the links. I found them very interesting and informative. I'm sure anyone who reads them would look on crew members and tipping differently. Next time I see crew looking miserable I hope I'll be a bit more understanding.

[lostinvegas]

Thank you for posting the links and the extract.

 

I have to be honest and say its put me off cruising abit. I do understand the earlier comments about perspective. I work all over the world and a very small amount of money in the UK is a fortune elsewhere in the world.

 

I disagree with what Lynn says about north Americans knowing about how to tip because a tip should be for outstanding service not just to make up the wages, that why I don't agree with tipping if you get poor service, it defeats the object. That's why I think that the staff should get paid a larger basic wage.

 

The thing is it cannot be too terrible (on P&O anyway) because over the last 7 years we have bumped into the same members of staff who have been working on cruise ships for years, if it was terrible or worse than what is back home they would not do it.

 

I guess we should all be grateful we live in the west and don't have to make a choice to work on a cruise ship as a server.

[Gerrym]

 

 

That being said. IF YOU CAN AFFORD THE CRUISE YOU CAN AFFORD THE TIPS. SERVICE CHARGE OR WHATEVER YOU CALL IT. IF NOT STAY HOME.l

 

thank you.

 

 

That is your opinion and you are perfectly entitled to it.

 

It would seem from your direct language and your use of capitals that you are trying to tell people what they should do.

That you are not entitled to do.

 

If people have a different viewpoint to you then it should be respected if not agreed to.

 

 

 

Cheers

 

Gerry

[bazzaw]

This matter comes up regularly in all the cruise Forums.

 

I am quite happy to pay my way on board the cruises - and wish that ALL the cruiselines would simply apply a compulsory service charge that NOBODY can avoid (just like some restaurants do) and then let us all get on with "tipping" for additional service. ( note that I said "additional" - not just somebody doing their job to a satisfactory standard. )

 

My problem with tipping in the US is my inability to understand who to tip and when. For example, why do taxi drivers get tipped when postal workers don't. Why would I tip the hotel bell hop when I don't tip the hotel receptionist? Why don't Americans tip the checkout girl at the supermarket - but do tip a barman???

 

I can never get an answer to these kind of questions from Americans - I think it is because they don't know the answer themselves. What are their thoughts on "stiffing" the teller in their bank - or the bus driver of their local bus company.??

 

Barry

[2irisheyes]

I assume in the US there are certain jobs where the pay is minimal and it is expected that the salary will be made up from tips. Americans obviously know where this applies. Twenty years ago 10% was expected but now it is more like 15-20%. Living in the UK where there is a minimum wage I, like others on here, would prefer there to be a minimum wage for all on cruiselines but then most of them are American owned. I would hate to have to grovel for my pay.

[Adri204]

This matter comes up regularly in all the cruise Forums.

 

I am quite happy to pay my way on board the cruises - and wish that ALL the cruiselines would simply apply a compulsory service charge that NOBODY can avoid (just like some restaurants do) and then let us all get on with "tipping" for additional service. ( note that I said "additional" - not just somebody doing their job to a satisfactory standard. )

 

My problem with tipping in the US is my inability to understand who to tip and when. For example, why do taxi drivers get tipped when postal workers don't. Why would I tip the hotel bell hop when I don't tip the hotel receptionist? Why don't Americans tip the checkout girl at the supermarket - but do tip a barman???

 

Well to answer some of your questions. Taxi drivers in America are not Federal Employees but Postal workers who are Federal Employees and work for the Federal Government are not allowed to be tipped as I understand it.

 

The whole tiping the bell hop and not the receptionist in Hotels is a difference in Hotel policy. I have indeed stayed in Hotels where I have tiped both the bell hop and the receptionist.

 

As far as not tipping the checkout girl. Some States in America have laws that specifically prohibit this for example in Alaska we dont and are not allowed to tip the check out girl and or person who puts our grocery sacks/bags. But we are allowed to tip the barman/maid.

 

Hope this helps? However here is the thing I dont tip all the time. I dont spend my days tipping. I dont tip in book stores for example or big department stores etc.

 

I do tip in the coffe store when I get my Hot chocolate(I dont drink coffie). I do tip in a restaurant but I dont tip at fast food restaurants like McDonalds, Subway etc. I do tip at the dry cleaners on the rare occasions I use one.

 

 

 

I can never get an answer to these kind of questions from Americans - I think it is because they don't know the answer themselves. What are their thoughts on "stiffing" the teller in their bank - or the bus driver of their local bus company.??

 

Also keep in mind that in America we have Unions and sometimes these Unions specifically prohibit gifts ie tipping. Also we dont tip at banks or bus drivers and that is due partly to custom and partly to unions and other rules and polices that the businesses have.

 

Adri :)

[BigTanya]

I must say I find all this so confusing.

When on a cruise i always tip the Waiter and his Assistant, and then my cabin steward.

After reading the replies here, I cannot understand as to why the crew are not salaried. As one other poster said, its awful to have to grovel for tips.

[lostinvegas]

"a compulsory service charge that cannot be avoided"

 

Just put the price of the cruise up because the above is doing just that.

 

I really like the post about tipping in the US, I also don't have a clue.

 

Also what do you do if you don't have any money to tip fir example the bell hop because you only have a $100 bill in your pocket what do you do then?

[bazzaw]

Hi Adri

 

Thanks for your reply. I think this "tipping" thing must definitely be a cultural matter, that only the people of that culture really understand.

 

For example -- I do tip at the dry cleaners on the rare occasions I use one.I find this to be really "weird" :) - and honestly can't understand why somebody working at the front counter of a dry cleaners would be tipped :)

 

Also , I noticed that you said in a couple of places that " we are allowed to tip, etc" . Now, not wishing to be thought pedantic, I nevertheless wonder what you mean by using the word "allowed" - it is almost as though there is a desire to tip - some "urge" to tip that perhaps other cultures don't feel?? :)

 

Anyway - back to cruising. For the person who asked about being caught with a $100 bill - you only do that once!!!!:) After that you make sure you have a pocket full of $1 bills when visiting the US . I did however read somewhere that it is normal to ask the "tippee" if they can

"break" the large bill - now that , I would find to be very personally embarrassing and would do almost anything to avoid. Maybe I am then just displaying MY cultures inadequacy.

 

Barry

[jocap]

We were on the first package tour which Virgin had from Manchester to Orlando. The V. rep asked us to the meeting next day, saying she had to explain tipping in the USA to us. It was an eye opener, and I think all the other newbies were as concerned as us, at doing the proper thing. The thing which stays with us was the fact that we had to leave $2 in the ashtray each day, or our rooms wouldn't be done properly. This felt like the "backsheesh" of the Middle East. We still have an unpleasant feeling about being told how to tip, as it seems like a type of bribery. We comply with the local rules, however.

On our return, we spent a few nights in a UK hotel, and left £2 in the ash tray, thinking that we'd been ignorant before.....that £2 stayed for 2 days, until we moved it and put it on the used teatray.

In the middle of a recent thread on this site, a cafe worker from Miami admitted that they add 18% to the menu prices, because so many foreigners don't realise they should tip.

It's the expectation we challenge, not the actual paying.

Jo.

[BigTanya]

a cafe worker from Miami admitted that they add 18% to the menu prices, because so many foreigners don't realise they should tip.

 

Jo.

Hi Jo. My Grandaughter Lillie, has shown me how to use the quote feature. Yippie. What a great Silver Surfer I am.

I dont mind service charges being added to the bill. The only problem I have is ensuring that the waiter gets it, and its not going into a tip pool.

[UKBayern]

On our return, we spent a few nights in a UK hotel, and left £2 in the ash tray, thinking that we'd been ignorant before.....that £2 stayed for 2 days, until we moved it and put it on the used teatray.

 

:D We own our own hotel, and the big rule is: do not touch the guests money in the room, unless it was specifically given to you by the guest, or if there is a thank-you note with it, or if the guest has actually checked out. Otherwise the staff can get in nasty situations where a guest claims "the cleaning lady stole from me". Believe it or not, some guests even leave money lying around in the room to see how honest the cleaning lady will be....

[TanyaE]

Hi Adri

 

Thanks for your reply. I think this "tipping" thing must definitely be a cultural matter, that only the people of that culture really understand.

 

For example -- I do tip at the dry cleaners on the rare occasions I use one.I find this to be really "weird" :) - and honestly can't understand why somebody working at the front counter of a dry cleaners would be tipped :)

 

Also , I noticed that you said in a couple of places that " we are allowed to tip, etc" . Now, not wishing to be thought pedantic, I nevertheless wonder what you mean by using the word "allowed" - it is almost as though there is a desire to tip - some "urge" to tip that perhaps other cultures don't feel?? :)

 

Anyway - back to cruising. For the person who asked about being caught with a $100 bill - you only do that once!!!!:) After that you make sure you have a pocket full of $1 bills when visiting the US . I did however read somewhere that it is normal to ask the "tippee" if they can

"break" the large bill - now that , I would find to be very personally embarrassing and would do almost anything to avoid. Maybe I am then just displaying MY cultures inadequacy.

 

Barry

 

It's absolutely a cultural thing and anyone who thinks Canada is the same as the US is mistaken. I have this same problem every time I travel south of the border. It's a problem knowing who to tip and how much. It is especially embarrassing not having the change because you only have big bills from the currency exchange place.

 

I would prefer, like so many other posters, to have the fare raised. It's almost deceptive marketing because the week-long cruise you got for a fantastic deal is actually $70 more. Then again, I think advertised prices ought to include the taxes too.

 

As for sharing tips, I absolutely think they should be shared. The cabin steward could not do his job without the maintenance, laundry and garbage men all doing their jobs. I don't know how it works everywhere, but I know most places here in Canada have policies on tip sharing and tip-outs to ensure staff all get a share.

 

I think tips ought to be for service. In this country we have gone the way of the Americans a little with tips expected in restaurants, hair salons, taxis and probably a host of other places that I, in my ignorance, rudely don't tip. I have always wondered though... my massage therapist shares an office with the chiropractor. I tip for the massage, but to tip a doctor would be an insult. hmm....

[bazzaw]

Tanya

 

my massage therapist shares an office with the chiropractor. I tip for the massage, but to tip a doctor would be an insult. hmm....

 

That last bit gets me thinking. We know that there is class consciousness in the UK( based on more than just money) - but perhaps this tipping thing in the US stems from a kind of "hidden" class consciousness in the US. Because tipping is usually associated with something involving "personal" service - as imposed to "impersonal " service. The US is supposedly an egalitarian society - although there are definite class lines relating to money. Perhaps those in the past who had money felt somehow impelled to "tip" their human equals, who were inferior to them in regards to possession of money - and this has become a habit??

 

Barry