Disappointed with RCI

[zachnlucy]

Okay, I will admit that they do slightly grow up. My oldest son is now 20 and has recently amazed me by thanking me for being such a disciplinarian all these years. My oldest daughter (the ridic girl) is 17 and does not thank me for much of anything. She came home the other day with a Mohawk. She and I ushered at church the following Sunday and you would not believe the people who were complimenting her hairstyle. :eek: She thanked them and then rolled her eyes at me. Our three smallest, boy/girl twins, 8, and another son, 10, still think I'm alright, but I know the clock is ticking, and their time is coming, and I am ready.

[zachnlucy]

Here is the conversation I just had with my 15 year old...

 

Him: Wah we hah fa duh?

You want to hear something really sad? I knew exactly what he was asking the second I read it.

[dc-snoopy]

Snoopy' date=' I'm not really sure they [i']do[/i] grow out of it. Certain mistakes have become so rampant, even among tv and radio announcers and in scripts (such as the phrase "she gave it to her and I") that people think the poor grammar is actually the correct grammar, and they will pompously correct you if you say "she gave it to her and me". I seldom see an e-mail or post where there aren't multiple misspellings, grammar gaffes, and and examples of a usage faux pas.

 

Not to be disrespectful, but there were three errors in your post, and you are far more articulate than the average person. Normally, I would absolutely never correct someone else's spelling, grammar, punctuation, or usage, but I'm only using your post to attempt to prove a point.

 

I taught high school English for 16 years and then worked as a general manager in large bookstores for 13 years after I left teaching. Most of my employees were college students and, each year, I became more and more dismayed at how ignorant and incompetent they were in using their native language.

 

Allen

 

Allen, you are correct. I was responding quickly and didn't proof my own post before posting (something I've done a lot of lately). In my defense, if I were writing something where the writing quality mattered more, then I would proof and correct such things as "its" instead of "it's" and the tense of seems, but I didn't for a board posting. Having had to do enough technical writing, publication writing, and proof-reading in my last 20-25 years, I find that I tend to be more careful of such things on my second pass. With my postings, I just usually don't make a second pass.

 

And you are also correct on your point that there may be more grammatical and spelling errors these days that in former days, but I don't think it is quite as rampant as some people feel...I do think that many of the "illiterate" teens and twenty-somethings learn as they go. Many learn when they finally have to do some sort of writing for a living...

[bpear1600]

You want to hear something really sad? I knew exactly what he was asking the second I read it.

 

Is this a regional thing? I don't hear any of the neighborhood kids talking like that. We also had our granddaughters, 14 and 17, down from CT for a week and neither talks like a "valley girl" or a "gangsta". They're not nerds either. They're pretty girls who get excellent grades, play sports, dance and are very popular.

 

If you think your kids are bad you should listen to Michelle Wie, the golf phenom from Hawaii. She's supposedly an A student but she can barely put three words together without a "you know" or a "like" and I believe at least one of her parents is a college professor.

 

I don't get it as Tom Hanks would say.

[LoriLinay]

My kids don't talk "gangsta" in my house. They both know better. They just mumble. Or like so many teen girls, my daughter talks at the speed of light! So much of it is just maturing and learning. I have to tell my son a LOT to not ask something as he's walking away, with his head down, and mumbling...ARRGGHHHH!!!

 

But for the most part, they are GREAT kids. I'll put up with this little bump in the road!

[ginadis2002]

Today, reading is probably the only consistant way children learn proper grammar. Proper sentence structure becomes second nature if you see the same grammatical construction over and over again even if you don't know the rule governing the construction. I'll venture a guess that not many children are reading regularly anymore. They seem to have too many other important distractions.

 

Parsing sentences also gives children a good understanding of the role of each word in a sentence. I haven't seen a child parse a sentence in 35 years.

[WeBeCruisin']

Today, reading is probably the only consistant way children learn proper grammar. Proper sentence structure becomes second nature if you see the same grammatical construction over and over again even if you don't know the rule governing the construction. I'll venture a guess that not many children are reading regularly anymore. They seem to have too many other important distractions.

 

Parsing sentences also gives children a good understanding of the role of each word in a sentence. I haven't seen a child parse a sentence in 35 years.

 

I read somewhere recently that the average adult in America doesn't read even one book a year. Also, fewer and fewer read newspapers anymore.

 

I was eleven before we got our first television, and my major entertainment, when not outdoors athletically playing, was reading. In highschool, I hated English and grammar, but (probably from my extensive reading, intutitively knew what was right and what was wrong). After three years in the Army and four years as a civilian in Alaska, I went back to college and was amazed to find myself becoming an English teacher. I still didn't know the rules, and had to learn them to be able to explain the logic of the language to highschool students. I also learned, finally, how to diagram sentences, since I had just stayed home "sick" in high school until they finished that unit :cool: . Those students whom I taught who actually had the intelligence and patience to learn how to diagram a sentence, never made another grammatical mistake, because they knew how the language was constructed and the role each part of speech played. One of my grammar tests required the students to diagram the following two sentences:

 

"2 + 2 = 4" and " 'Twas brillig and the slithy toves did gyre and gimbol in the wabe."

 

Their first reaction was to think that I had finally lost it, but then, when they actually thought about it, you could see the light bulb go off, and they had huge smiles on their faces as they raced to start diagramming. Fifteen years later, I had students still telling me how that was the most memorable moment they had in a high school classroom, and that it was an epiphany (my word, not theirs :D ) which enabled them to realize what they were capable of achieving with logical thought and by thinking a little "outside the box".

 

And 90 per cent of them did it right.:)

 

Allen

[first timer with teens]

Want your kids to be better speakers and writers of English? Here are some suggestions.

 

1. They should spend a lot of time around people who speak correctly. If that's you, great. If you don't speak correctly, learn. Kids learn by modelling their parents first.

 

2. They should read often and extensively. Limit the television. Not only does it take away from time which they could use for reading, but the language usage on TV is ATROCIOUS. And that is the NICEST thing that I can say about it.

 

3. They should study a foreign language, preferably Latin. Learning how another language works and is constructed is often that epiphany for children that Allen mentioned. Learning the vocabulary roots is also invaluable, and seeing the interconnectedness of English with other languages adds to the educated mind.

 

4. Don't hold your breath waiting for an English teacher like Allen to come along into your child's life.

[Ocean Boy]

I agree, study a foreign language. I can remember back in high school taking tests in english class and thinking in italian in order to get the answers. My italian teachers did a much better job teaching the workings of the language then my english teachers ever did.

[la_croisiere_s'amuse]

Ummmm . . . I haven't read this thread in several days, so I just checked back in and read the last couple of pages . . . has anybody else noticed that the last mention of the original topic was on page 4?? :p

 

My, but we are a chatty, opinionated bunch, aren't we? Maybe that's why I feel so perfectly at home here. :D

 

And while I'm at it, here's my two cents: I am functionally trilingual, meaning that while I speak my native language with greater ease than my second and third langauges, I can converse intelligently in just about any context with native speakers of any of the three. And although I was lucky enough to grow up in a home where learning and reading were highly valued, I didn't speak a word of a foreign language until I was 13. In other words: parents, IT'S NOT TOO LATE!! My kids didn't become my kids until they were already teenagers, so I missed out on their prime language acquisition years, but they have still responded to my language influence. A couple of very simple practices have had a tremendous impact in our family. First: since we are Christians we read from the scriptures together, but any good literature would have the same effect. Also, I speak clearly and succintly to them, and if they don't respond in kind, I simply let them know that I didn't understand them, and ask them to try again. It's not done in a judgemental or condescending way, so they don't rebel against it. The greatest thing is that as I've shared some of my experience and knowledge of other cultures, two of them have decided -- with NO prompting from me -- to study one of my languages. Very heartwarming. :)

 

And yes, it would be nice if we could rely on the public school system to do this for us . . . but . . . well I'd better not go there. ;)

[LoriLinay]

My son just corrected my grammar. I just got a Dyson and said "Wow, this doesn't work very good". As soon as I said it, I just cringed. He looked at me and said "doesn't work very well." Does the period go inside or outside of the "? That one always gets me.

 

First Timer...I haven't seen Latin offered in our public schools for at least 20 years. When I was in school in the 70's, Latin was offered as well as about 9 other options. Now the high schoolers (and middle schoolers) can pick from only Spanish or French. But I see now that next year they can also learn Somalian?

 

And WeBe,....I showed your example to my son, and even though he didn't totally understand it, he did have a pretty good grasp of it. I asked how he knew what he did, and he said from me.

 

It's exactly correct that they learn what they live. The NEVER hear "ain't", so they never say it....etc.

 

And to try and stay within the scope of cruising....how many languages do you think will be represented on your next cruise?

[zachnlucy]

My son just corrected my grammar. I just got a Dyson and said "Wow, this doesn't work very good". As soon as I said it, I just cringed. He looked at me and said "doesn't work very well." Does the period go inside or outside of the "? That one always gets me.

I read something years ago about that question. The period is actually supposed to go outside the quotation marks; however, on old typesetters, the period always fell off so they began putting it inside the quotation marks. I don't know if this is true, but I found it interesting.

[la_croisiere_s'amuse]

I read something years ago about that question. The period is actually supposed to go outside the quotation marks; however, on old typesetters, the period always fell off so they began putting it inside the quotation marks. I don't know if this is true, but I found it interesting.

 

Wow, that is interesting! I've always thought it's a bit counterintuitive to put the period inside the quotation marks, but that is indeed the rule. An explanation like that would make sense.

 

Things that make you go "hmmmmm . . . " :D

[Ocean Boy]

Ummmm . . . I haven't read this thread in several days' date=' so I just checked back in and read the last couple of pages . . . has anybody else noticed that the last mention of the original topic was on page 4?? :p

[/quote']

What was the original topic?? :confused: :D

[Shanafan]

My son just corrected my grammar. I just got a Dyson and said "Wow, this doesn't work very good". As soon as I said it, I just cringed. He looked at me and said "doesn't work very well." Does the period go inside or outside of the "? That one always gets me.

QUOTE]

 

Are you talking about the one that is several hundred dollars........and it doesn't work very well?? That really stinks!

[LoriLinay]

Shanafan...Let me TOTALLY take this thread off topic now! LOL!!

 

Yes, the Dyson that I got was $400. I love a clean carpet. I'm not sure if I will be keeping it or not. It is VERY heavy. It's very labor intensive to use the tools and the long hose. Think about those toys called "transformers" and how you have to pull and push and flip and turn to make them into a different shape. It really DOES suck a LOT out of the carpet. WAY more than a regular one. But what really bugs me is that the carpet doesn't LOOK like it's just been vacuumed. Obviously it is has been, but you don't get those lines. If you use the hose attachment, it can suck nap up like nothing I've ever seen, but if you don't use the attachment, the nap doesn't pull up. (like where a chair leg was)

 

Back on topic...I sure will miss my Dyson on my next cruise...

[first timer with teens]

Topic, shmopic. If you are using the Dyson as a substitute for buying an exercise machine, Lori, then keep it. Otherwise, keep your workout and your cleaning functions separate! ;) Who needs an extrememly heavy vacuum cleaner? Take it back, use Consumer Reports to select a nice Hoover (yes, they often are top-rated), and use the change to buy me drinks on our next cruise! THAT'S the way to meet those "nice men" and save on those steward tips!

[WeBeCruisin']

I read something years ago about that question. The period is actually supposed to go outside the quotation marks; however, on old typesetters, the period always fell off so they began putting it inside the quotation marks. I don't know if this is true, but I found it interesting.

 

Before I became an English teacher, I was a typesetter in Fairbanks, Alaska, and worked as a printer's devil in high school in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. I learned how to run a linotype machine, which produced lines of type from hot lead. In this process, the periods could not fall off because each line was a solid piece of lead the width of a newspaper column. In far-earlier times, print was set by hand, with each letter or punctuation mark being a separate piece of type. Falling off might have been possible then, but no more so than a line which ended with a letter. The "galley tray" couldn't differentiate between letters and punctuation marks, and there was also a "chase lock" which bound the page together and prevented anything from coming loose.

 

If what you're quoting is independent and doesn't include its own period, then the period should go outside the quotes. Example: Flagger thought he was so "cool". If what you're quoting is a complete sentence and had a period in the original, then you would keep the period inside the quotes. Example: Bicker said, "You people are being puerile and mean." Some purists would insist that a second period should go on the end of the sentence (after the quotation marks) to show the end of the original sentence. There are also differences in these usages between Americans and inhabitants of the United Kingdom.

 

Even English teachers have trouble agreeing on this issue.

 

Allen