Strangers photographing your children

[karatemom2]

There is a thread right now on the Princess Board that really disturbed me. The thread is about kids in adult only areas. Someone posted a photo that they took of three young girls who appear to be tweens or very young teens. They are at one of the adult only pools in their bathing suits, one in a bikini.

 

I seriously find it disturbing that someone would even take a photo like that of someone elses children in the first place, but then to post in on a public forum like Cruise Critic without the parent's having knowledge or giving permission seems completely out of line. I get the impression that some fellow posters there might think I'm overreacting, but it has my really bothered.

 

Just wondering how others here on the Family Board feel about this. Am I being too sensitive?

[cb at sea]

Sensitive???? I don't know....the parents should be keeping a closer watch on their kids, if they don't want them photographed. Lots of folks take photos of the ship's spaces, and sometimes, there are other folks there....no "permission" needed.

 

Kids should NOT be in the "adult only" areas....perhaps the poster was trying to make a point of that????

 

Perhaps that person should not have posted pictures of other people's kids, but where were the parents? The photo is hardly salacious!

[Camlott]

If you had said these were pictures of kids on a "private" balcony or some similar place I would have serious problems with it!

 

From what you described, they were in a public space and one that they apparently didn't belong. So I would say that is fair game.

 

I haven't looked at the thread but I'm guessing the pictures were posted to prove some point about children in "adult only" areas. I may be in the minority on this, but I don't see a problem as you described it.

[karatemom2]

I agree that children should be supervised, but it is hard to have your eyes glued to them every second. I always accompany my daughter to the pool and generally park myself in a deck chair and read while she swims. She will get in and out to get a snack or drink and I could not possibly know at every second if someone is aiming a camera at her.

 

I understand that kids could get caught in the background of photos inadvertently, but in this photo posted, clearly the camera was aimed directly at the girls and they were the subject of the photo. I just think it is inappropriate and frankly a little weird to take photos of young girls in their swim wear and then turn around and post them on a public forum. It just seems wrong.

[chipmaster]

My rules are pretty simple for others of mine:

1) In a public place and not sneaking around a few pictures is no big deal

2) If I see someone taking a LOT pictures of my kids I'll generally ask why.

 

I've on occasion been asked by a random person if they could take a picture of my kid, that was fine.

 

As a photographer I also take lots of pictures of others, thousands actually. I have no problem not taking or posting of others. I have also have yet to have an issue from anyone shooting their girls either. If you were to look at the pictures in context wouldn't worry, but out of context who knows what paranoid people think these days!

 

With the web and cameras everywhere in every smartphone be prepared if you do something stupid or embarrassing it will be caught and distributed everywhere immediately there are two sides to the convenience of the WEB and technology.

[karatemom2]

The internet certainly has been a mixed blessing and for parents it has given us all another thing to be cautious about with our children. The post and the photo as well as the ensuing discussion have been removed by the moderator for which I am grateful because that photo should have never been posted. I do find it interesting that while the conversation lasted most seemed to think nothing of it with the exception of a few fellow parents who were right there with me on this subject. I guarantee it has raised my level of awareness, however, and I will be even more vigilant in keeping an eye on my daughter, especially when she is swimming. But really, how sad that I even have to worry about someone taking inappropriate photos and posting them online. Kids should be free to have fun without these burdens.

[SingleFatherofDD]

As a father of a young daughter I understand where you are coming from. I have read your post both on the other board and this board. Some of your feelings I do agree with but others I see some flaws. A person has a right to take pictures of anything he or she wants. That person should ask permission of a person if they are taking pictures of a specific person. However, if they are taking a picture of the pool there are going to be people in the pool. These people will be a mixture of children and adults wearing different types of bathing suits. Then that person will sometimes put pictures on their own websites and these people will be seen by anyone on the web.

 

I am not sure if you know but on your contract you agree to before you sail you give the cruise line the permission to use any pictures or recordings of yourself and your children. These things are used for advertisements and other things. Sometimes they will take pictures of families in the water at the beach and stuff and the kids are in bathing suits.

 

This is a copy from HALs contract:

12. Personal Information; Authority to Use and Sell Pictures, Video Images and Audio Recordings: Personal information we collect from you may be used by us or our affiliates for marketing purposes; it will not, however, be sold to unaffiliated third parties. In addition, some governmental and quasi-governmental agencies require or request that we provide them with your personal information. You authorize us to use and/or provide to others your personal information as described above and acknowledge that we do not assume any liability to you for our doing so. We periodically photograph or otherwise film people participating in Cruises, Cruisetours and/or HAL Land Trips for retail, marketing, promotional, publicity and training purposes. Without any requirement that we compensate you or obtain any additional approvals from you, we are authorized to include photographic, video recordings and other visual portrayals of you, as well as voice recordings included with any videos, in photographs, videos, DVDs or other mediums that we sell at retail or utilize for marketing, promotional, publicity and/or training activities

 

Finally, how would you approach a person you think was taking pictures of your child. It is their word against yours. I would not want to cause a scene. Its a slippery slope.

[karatemom2]

I do understand the legality of people taking photos in public places and I am aware of the language in the cruise agreement that allows use of photos. I tend to believe that a cruise line would not take recognizable photos of young girls in wet swim wear to use in promotional materials. Probably not a good marketing move. I really don't have an issue with passing photos of families having fun, especially in large group settings that don't zone in on a particular individual.

 

And as far as people taking photos in public places I get that too. Again incidental inclusion in a photograph is a chance we all take when we are in public settings.

 

What bothers me is people who would without permission specifically zone in and take photos of young girls or any child for that matter where said child is the focus of the photo. That was the case in the photo posted. It wasn't a photo of the pool, the pool was not the focal point. It was a photo of those unsuspecting girls who were clearly not aware they were the subject of a camera lens. That in and of itself is bad enough, but that the photo would be posted on an open online forum where anyone could view it and copy it is not right. I'm not debating the legality but I sure am debating the morality.

[Scrapchick]

As a father of a young daughter I understand where you are coming from. I have read your post both on the other board and this board. Some of your feelings I do agree with but others I see some flaws. A person has a right to take pictures of anything he or she wants. That person should ask permission of a person if they are taking pictures of a specific person. However, if they are taking a picture of the pool there are going to be people in the pool. These people will be a mixture of children and adults wearing different types of bathing suits. Then that person will sometimes put pictures on their own websites and these people will be seen by anyone on the web.

 

I am not sure if you know but on your contract you agree to before you sail you give the cruise line the permission to use any pictures or recordings of yourself and your children. These things are used for advertisements and other things. Sometimes they will take pictures of families in the water at the beach and stuff and the kids are in bathing suits.

 

This is a copy from HALs contract:

12. Personal Information; Authority to Use and Sell Pictures, Video Images and Audio Recordings: Personal information we collect from you may be used by us or our affiliates for marketing purposes; it will not, however, be sold to unaffiliated third parties. In addition, some governmental and quasi-governmental agencies require or request that we provide them with your personal information. You authorize us to use and/or provide to others your personal information as described above and acknowledge that we do not assume any liability to you for our doing so. We periodically photograph or otherwise film people participating in Cruises, Cruisetours and/or HAL Land Trips for retail, marketing, promotional, publicity and training purposes. Without any requirement that we compensate you or obtain any additional approvals from you, we are authorized to include photographic, video recordings and other visual portrayals of you, as well as voice recordings included with any videos, in photographs, videos, DVDs or other mediums that we sell at retail or utilize for marketing, promotional, publicity and/or training activities

 

Finally, how would you approach a person you think was taking pictures of your child. It is their word against yours. I would not want to cause a scene. Its a slippery slope.

 

You raise valid points. But in this particular case, did you SEE the picture Karatemom was so upset about??? I did. And I didn't really get her point until I saw it. It wasn't a general shot with various people captured in it, as frequently happens. I take pics like all the time. This shot was a close up of three pre-teen girls in wet swimsuits on the edge of the pool. There is no reason for ANYONE other than a member of those girls families to be taking shots like that of young girls, and it was downright creepy that a stranger not only took the pic, but kept it and then uploaded it onto a public website like CC, where it did NOTHING to bolster his argument that the girls in question were unsupervised at the pool. The only subjects visible in the picture were the three girls. The photographer was LUCKY he was on a ship and no-one challenged him about it. The police would have been called in the UK if someone complained about it over there. Taking pictures of other people's kids is a hugely risky thing to do in this day and age, when we're all so concerned about protecting our young from predators and molesters and general creeps who get off on things like that.

 

No, you can't stop or control who takes pics if you don't see it and you're not there. But it doesn't make what this guy did right. It's bad enough he took the pic, but to post it on the web?? I don't post pics of even my friends kids without their permission. It just isn't a good thing to do.....

[SingleFatherofDD]

Scrapchick,

 

I did see the picture that Karatemom is talking about. I would have to agree that it is a little suspicious why this person took this picture in the first place and then again why he put it online. I guess he thought he could possible show that these children were breaking the rules. However, we don't know what was in the mind of this person when he was taking the pictures or even placing them online.

 

One thing that came to mind is that the parents might not even be around. I hope they were but sometimes children around the ages of the children in the picture roam the ships alone. These children might not have known pictures were taking of them. It's just a very gray area that photography covers.

 

My DD wears both a one piece or two piece bathing suits when she goes on vacations. She even likes two pieces better. In todays world we have to be careful and watchful. I educate her about strangers and such. We can't be 100 percent protective of them but we hope people have good judgement when posting pictures of other people.

[Scrapchick]

And, as parents, that is all we can hope for.... We all want to protect our precious children, while recognising we live in modern times and cannot control everything. Between creeps with cameras and TSA "enhanced patdowns", it is getting harder and harder all the time to preserve our children's innocence. I personally do not care for girls in tiny bikinis, but that's just me. I don't let my DD swim unsupervised no matter what her swimsuit, but neither is it okay for strangers, especially male ones to be zooming in on my DD in her wet swimwear by a pool, on a ship or not.

 

I think you and I agree on far more than we disagree!

[Onessa]

As Single Dad points out, confronting someone taking pics of your kids could be problematic; but I am more concerned about educating the people taking the pics. The photographer may have believed that their vigilantism dealing with kids "out of bounds" is an appropriate way to deal with rule breaking -- we need to let them know that it is not appropriate. If this yahoo has a problem with kids somewhere where they are not supposed to be, he/she needs to address the issue with ship's personnel.

 

My nearly 20YO niece was confronted while reading in the pool area on an RCCI ship restricted to guests 16YO and older -- a 50-something dude started screaming at her that she was not allowed in the area. She was 19+YO. There were pool attendants (who thankfully handled the situation - DN stayed while 50+dude was escorted out of the area). We've been on AK cruises where pax were complaining about kids in the Solarium pool area - when it was clearly posted that accompanied children were allowed in the area during posted times due to the inclement weather at the outdoor pools.

 

Too often these vigilantes think they know what is up and they do not.

[Bound4Bermuda]

I didn't see the photo, but I agree it's creepy. It seems like some people go out of their way to be the "cruise police" and take pictures of "rule breakers" and post it on CC as "evidence"...of I don't know what. On a completely different topic, someone the other day posted pictures of people wearing jeans and caps in the MDR. It turned out that they were taking pictures for other reasons and then cropped and kept pictures of these people as some sort of "proof" that people wear jeans in the MDR--or pointing out how inappropriate it is...I'm not really sure what the person's point was. But perhaps this was an overzealous CC member who thought, "Aha! I'm going to show that kids are sneaking in the solarium!" but not thinking that they're coming off as a creepy ped0ph!le (altering spelling for work computer:o). But, I think there should be some sort of CC rule against posting photos of other passengers. Obviously, you might get people in the background, and you can't expect the moderators to go around asking for proof that it's your own family in the photo. But if someone is very clearly and specifically taking a picture of other people--especially children--they shouldn't be "allowed" to post it on the Internet...especially something like children in bathing suits. Granted, it's a "normal," and harmless picture to most people, but in the wrong hands...{shudder}.

[junglejane]

I agree that this sounds very creepy. I didn't see the photo, so am I right in assuming the moderators took it down? I would definitely object if I saw some other passenger going out of his way to photograph my kids, and I'd really be upset if I found those photos uploaded on some public website. Sounds like this guy definitely crossed the line. Onessa is right to call these people vigilantes.

[Scrapchick]

Well, what was extra creepy was that the pics was posted as a pdf. Much of the thread was subsequently removed, including the pic, but later that day when I was downloading something onto my computer I found the pdf of the pic sitting right there in my Downloads folder on my computer, completely unbeknownst to me. When I opened the link on CC, it triggered the pdf download to my hard drive.... So I now have the pic on my computer, which I most definitely did NOT want to happen...

 

I thought that was an extra dose of creepy on top of what was already creepy enough. The pic should never have been taken, let alone posted on a public forum...

[crusinmama06]

I didn't see it and obviously it must have been removed. I have a different take on this only because of my background. I've worked in media for almost 20 years now (wow that makes me sounds really old :eek:). But I started in television news. The rules of media and photojournalism, I can shoot anywhere that can be seen from a public street.

 

And guess what's scary? If I can see you in your house from the street, then I can shoot it and it can air on the news. I do not need your permission to air it.

 

I no longer work specifically in news -- I moved into the public relations/marketing side of media about 10 years ago. But the amount of people that exploited their children for a news story was scary.

 

The rules on this web site are different. If the mods deem it to be against TOS, then they can and will remove something. It is a web site owned by a private company. So the rules of free press/speech do not apply. :D

[In2why]

I am with Cruisemama on this....I dabble in photography and everyone needs to know that anything in public is not private. Our expectations are much higher than the reality. Children and the elderly are some of the best subjects to photograph because they are not as camera aware. That can be a good thing and a bad thing.

 

I see the issue from both sides, as someone who take lots of photos, I often ask if the parent is around or it is obvious that I am taking a picture of their child to alleviate some of the creep factor. But usually I use a zoom lens, so that the subject doesn't change their actions. I am also lucky that I am a woman so that I am not automatically thought of as a pervert. I feel horrible for the men in the world that have to guard everything they do so they are not thought of as a creep. It is almost to the point that good decent men are afraid to be alone with any child. But as a parent I get your concerns. In fact I don't freak if my children talk to 'strangers' but they do know that they aren't allowed to accept food, candy, or toys from anyone without asking me first, and they aren't allowed to let anyone take their picture if asked because those are often 'baiting' behaviors. As for a stranger that takes their picture in a public place....there isn't anything to be done about it, and I think we all need to take a deep breath and realize that the vast majority of people aren't perverts and shouldn't be punished because of the ones that are. Sometimes in our efforts to protect, we can cross into hysteria.

As far as posting a picture.....that can be touchy. Anything that sexualizes a minor is obviously off limits and even if it is not the intention when I took it, if I see it I delete it. Yet at the same time that can be in the eye of the beholder. For one person a photo of a young girl can be to focus on her joy and smile whereas another person might be looking at other 'assets' in the same picture, or in the case you posted about, the setting. I think the main thing is to realize that anytime you or your family is in public...you are in public. If you don't want it captured forever, then don't wear it, or do it in public.