Jones Act

[Pee-ah]

Please help as googling has done little for me.

 

My maternal unit and i are doing a Hawaii crusie next year from San Diego (return stoping in Mexico)and then a return trip back to Vancouver (as the Spirit is doing a repo to position for AK). One of the CC members posted that the B2B is against the Jones Act... From what i know of the act i don't think it is.. but then again i am not an expert!

 

Any assistance is appreaciated!

 

Please find the link to the CC below

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1367532

[Justsyd]

Is this correct? You're leaving San Diego, going to Hawaii, and ending the cruise in Mexico where you begin the second leg from Mexico to Vancouver? I don't see anything wrong with that.

[Pee-ah]

Is this correct? You're leaving San Diego, going to Hawaii, and ending the cruise in Mexico where you begin the second leg from Mexico to Vancouver? I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

The cruise that me and the unit (mother) and I are on stops in Mexico the night before arriving in SD. Then the next cruise is from SD to Vancouver (Home for us).. then the next is Vancouver to Alaska.

The member of the roll call said that the B2B from SD to AK is in violation of the Jones act… so if that is… is mine???? (I cant see either.. but I never studied maritime law)

[Cuizer2]

It does not matter where the ship stops in the middle of a back to back. The rule is fairly simply (though many do not understand it). A foreign flagged ship (not a cruise - a ship) cannot transport people from one US city to another US city without visiting a US port. Since your cruise ends in a foreign country you are not being transported between two US cities. Thus your itinerary will not violate the PVSA (the Jones Act has nothing to do with passenger ships).

 

PVSA - Passenger Vessel Services Act ...

 

http://www.cbp.gov/linkhandler/cgov/trade/legal/informed_compliance_pubs/pvsa_icp.ctt/pvsa_icp.pdf

[Justsyd]

The cruise that me and the unit (mother) and I are on stops in Mexico the night before arriving in SD. Then the next cruise is from SD to Vancouver (Home for us).. then the next is Vancouver to Alaska.

The member of the roll call said that the B2B from SD to AK is in violation of the Jones act… so if that is… is mine???? (I cant see either.. but I never studied maritime law)

 

Ok. I see. The first is fine. I do see a problem with the others: It is important to be aware of the effect that the Passenger Services Act (PSA) has on certain combined itineraries. The Passenger Services Act prohibits ships of non-U.S. registry from embarking and disembarking passengers at two different U.S. ports.

 

Such travel would constitute point-to-point transportation between two U.S. ports, a practice prohibited on foreign flagged vessels. Virtually all cruise vessels are foreign-flagged; therefore must adhere to the requirements of the Passengers Services Act.

 

An exception to this general rule allows passengers to be transported between two U.S. ports if the cruise itinerary includes a port call at a “distant foreign port”. Distant foreign ports do NOT include Canada, Mexico, Central America, Bermuda and most Caribbean islands. South America and the ABC islands (Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao) do qualify as distant foreign ports.

[Pee-ah]

Ok. I see. The first is fine. I do see a problem with the others: It is important to be aware of the effect that the Passenger Services Act (PSA) has on certain combined itineraries. The Passenger Services Act prohibits ships of non-U.S. registry from embarking and disembarking passengers at two different U.S. ports.

 

Such travel would constitute point-to-point transportation between two U.S. ports, a practice prohibited on foreign flagged vessels. Virtually all cruise vessels are foreign-flagged; therefore must adhere to the requirements of the Passengers Services Act.

 

An exception to this general rule allows passengers to be transported between two U.S. ports if the cruise itinerary includes a port call at a “distant foreign port”.

 

Distant foreign ports do NOT include Canada, Mexico, Central America, Bermuda and most Caribbean islands. South America and the ABC islands (Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao) do qualify as distant foreign ports.

 

 

So the B2B originating in SD and finishing in Vancouver is Okay (sorry for askign for over clarification.. i'm a PM and its all about the risk:p)

 

But the B2B originating in SD and in Seattle isn't:confused:

 

(and thank you!!!! for being up and answering)

[more cruises]

It does not matter where the ship stops in the middle of a back to back. The rule is fairly simply (though many do not understand it). A ship (not a cruise - a ship) cannot transport people from one US city to another US city without visiting a US port. Since your cruise ends in a foreign country you are not being transported between two US cities. Thus your itinerary will not violate the PVSA (the Jones Act has nothing to do with passenger ships).

 

PVSA - Passenger Vessel Services Act ...

 

http://www.cbp.gov/linkhandler/cgov/trade/legal/informed_compliance_pubs/pvsa_icp.ctt/pvsa_icp.pdf

 

Maybe I'm confused but I thought it said you can't go from one US port to another without visiting a DISTANT foreign port. Ensenada, Mexico and Vancouver, Canada don't qualify as distant foreign ports.

 

I would call the cruiseline directly. It would be a shame to spend money on flights and hotels for a cruise that they end up canceling on you.

[Pee-ah]

Maybe I'm confused but I thought it said you can't go from one US port to another without visiting a DISTANT foreign port. Ensenada, Mexico and Vancouver, Canada don't qualify as distant foreign ports.

 

I would call the cruiseline directly. It would be a shame to spend money on flights and hotels for a cruise that they end up canceling on you.

 

 

On both my last cruises.. Canada was and is considered a distant port...

 

(they were Alaska- left from Vancouver and the Maritime/New England that left from NYC)

[Justsyd]

Now that I think about it, since Mexico is not included I'm not so sure about SD to Hawaii to Mexico? What's the rest of that itinerary?

 

I figured this out - I think - in SD they bus you to Mexico to board, right? So you leave from Mexico, go to Hawaii, come back to Mexico, and bus back so SD? If so, that's is fine.

[Cuizer2]

There seems to be two different itineraries here. Going from Hawaii to Vancouver is not a violation of the PVSA. Going from Hawaii to Alaska is. If you disembark the cruise in Vancouver then you are fine. If you disembark the cruise in Alaska then you are in violation of the PVSA.

 

I'm not clear which one is your itinerary. Are you taking two cruise (Hawaii to Mexico and San Diego to Vancouver) or three cruises (Hawaii to Mexico, San Diego to Vancouver and Vancouver to Alaska)? If two (ending in Vancouver) you are fine. If three (ending in Alaska) then you are violating the PVSA.

[tea4ular]

PVSA - Passenger Vessel Services Act ...

 

http://www.cbp.gov/linkhandler/cgov/trade/legal/informed_compliance_pubs/pvsa_icp.ctt/pvsa_icp.pdf

 

According to this document: We note here, that the penalty of $300 is assessed against the vessel operator or carrier that has provided the unlawful transportation. Thus, for example, a passenger who embarked on a non-coastwise-qualified vessel at Baltimore, Maryland for a Caribbean cruise scheduled to return and disembark at Baltimore, Maryland could not disembark in Miami, Florida for medical or emergency reasons without there being a violation of the PVSA. The penalty for this unlawful transportation would be assessed against the vessel/carrier.

 

So Carnival would be assessed the fine, not the passenger. Of course Carnival would probably bill you just for the heck of it!

[missesmamax3]

Google found this: http://seatravel.wordpress.com/2008/05/08/passenger-services-act-united-states/

 

This summary of the above act is courtesy of Princess Cruises..

 

It is important to be aware of the effect that the Passenger Services Act (PSA) has on certain combined itineraries. The Passenger Services Act prohibits ships of non-U.S. registry from embarking and disembarking passengers at two different U.S. ports.

 

Such travel would constitute point-to-point transportation between two U.S. ports, a practice prohibited on foreign flagged vessels. Virtually all cruise vessels are foreign-flagged; therefore must adhere to the requirements of the Passengers Services Act.

 

An exception to this general rule allows passengers to be transported between two U.S. ports if the cruise itinerary includes a port call at a “distant foreign port”.

 

Distant foreign ports do NOT include Canada, Mexico, Central America, Bermuda and most Caribbean islands. South America and the ABC islands (Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao) do qualify as distant foreign ports.

 

The Passenger Services Act (PSA) became law in 1886 and has been a part of U.S. cabotage law ever since. The law was designed to protect the United States domestic transportation industries (as applicable to both merchant and passenger vessels). The PSA grants U.S. flagged vessels the right to transport cargo and passengers between U.S. ports.

 

Here are some examples of legal and illegal itineraries:

A cruise originating and terminating in Ft. Lauderdale is permitted since passengers were returned to their original port of embarkation and, thus, no point-to-point transportation occurred. A cruise originating in Ft. Lauderdale and terminating in Los Angeles is permitted providing that the cruise itinerary includes a South American port or one of the ABC (Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao) islands.

 

A cruise originating in Los Angeles or Seattle and terminating in Whittier is NOT permitted since the cruise originates and terminates in different U.S. cities and does not call at a distant foreign port

 

Distant foreign ports do NOT include Canada, Mexico, Central America, Bermuda and most Caribbean islands. South America and the ABC islands do qualify as distant foreign ports.

 

In addition, passengers may travel between 2 U.S. ports if they travel on 2 different ships as Passenger Services Act violations are ship-specific. A violation occurs when a ship (not two ships) transports passengers between two different U.S. ports.

 

Even if the passengers disembark completely from the 1st voyage and then return to the pier to embark the 2nd voyage – it is still a violation of the PSA.

Interesting stuff courtesy of Princess Cruises.

[Pee-ah]

There seems to be two different itineraries here. Going from Hawaii to Vancouver is not a violation of the PVSA. Going from Hawaii to Alaska is. If you disembark the cruise in Vancouver then you are fine. If you disembark the cruise in Alaska then you are in violation of the PVSA.

 

I'm not clear which one is your itinerary. Are you taking two cruise (Hawaii to Mexico and San Diego to Vancouver) or three cruises (Hawaii to Mexico, San Diego to Vancouver and Vancouver to Alaska)? If two (ending in Vancouver) you are fine. If three (ending in Alaska) then you are violating the PVSA.

 

Me and the unit (maternal) are leaving San Diego on April 13th 2102 and arriving back in San Diego on the 28th.. then the ship leaves San Diego and arrives in Vancouver Bc (bring cash) on May 1st

Does this help ?

[Kiln Wood]

Please help as googling has done little for me.

 

My maternal unit and i are doing a Hawaii crusie next year from San Diego (return stoping in Mexico)and then a return trip back to Vancouver (as the Spirit is doing a repo to position for AK). One of the CC members posted that the B2B is against the Jones Act... From what i know of the act i don't think it is.. but then again i am not an expert!

 

Any assistance is appreaciated!

 

Please find the link to the CC below

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1367532

 

You may also want to see the thread "Violation of Passenger Services Act"

started by "tea4ular"

[missesmamax3]

There seems to be two different itineraries here. Going from Hawaii to Vancouver is not a violation of the PVSA. Going from Hawaii to Alaska is. If you disembark the cruise in Vancouver then you are fine. If you disembark the cruise in Alaska then you are in violation of the PVSA.

 

I'm not clear which one is your itinerary. Are you taking two cruise (Hawaii to Mexico and San Diego to Vancouver) or three cruises (Hawaii to Mexico, San Diego to Vancouver and Vancouver to Alaska)? If two (ending in Vancouver) you are fine. If three (ending in Alaska) then you are violating the PVSA.

 

The problem is the ship. If she is on the same ship for both cruises, then yes, it is in violation of the PVSA. If it's two different ships, she *should* be fine, at least this is what I'm getting from the info.

[Cuizer2]

According to this document: We note here, that the penalty of $300 is assessed against the vessel operator or carrier that has provided the unlawful transportation. Thus, for example, a passenger who embarked on a non-coastwise-qualified vessel at Baltimore, Maryland for a Caribbean cruise scheduled to return and disembark at Baltimore, Maryland could not disembark in Miami, Florida for medical or emergency reasons without there being a violation of the PVSA. The penalty for this unlawful transportation would be assessed against the vessel/carrier.

 

So Carnival would be assessed the fine, not the passenger. Of course Carnival would probably bill you just for the heck of it!

 

That is correct, the carrier gets the bill, not the passenger. Of course the carrier can pass that bill onto you. Most of the time they do. But sometimes they don't.

[Justsyd]

The problem is the ship. If she is on the same ship for both cruises, then yes, it is in violation of the PVSA. If it's two different ships, she *should* be fine, at least this is what I'm getting from the info.

 

That is correct - it is per ship - TWO different ships are fine!

[Cuizer2]

Me and the unit (maternal) are leaving San Diego on April 13th 2102 and arriving back in San Diego on the 28th.. then the ship leaves San Diego and arrives in Vancouver Bc (bring cash) on May 1st

 

Does this help ?

 

If you are going from San Diego to Vancouver then this is not a violation of the PVSA because the ship is transporting you from San Diego to Vancouver, which is in Canada (at least that is where it was when I was there).

[missesmamax3]

The cruise that me and the unit (mother) and I are on stops in Mexico the night before arriving in SD. Then the next cruise is from SD to Vancouver (Home for us).. then the next is Vancouver to Alaska.

 

The member of the roll call said that the B2B from SD to AK is in violation of the Jones act… so if that is… is mine???? (I cant see either.. but I never studied maritime law)

 

If this is all on the same ship, then yes, regardless of whether you disembark and embark again. B2Bs have to begin and end in the same port if it is on the same ship, unless you go to South America or something.

[Pee-ah]

If you are going from San Diego to Vancouver then this is not a violation of the PVSA because the ship is transporting you from San Diego to Vancouver, which is in Canada (at least that is where it was when I was there).

 

Its still there...

 

So my B2B is okay?

(and can i buy you a drink when i am in La in the fall);)

[Cuizer2]

The problem is the ship. If she is on the same ship for both cruises, then yes, it is in violation of the PVSA. If it's two different ships, she *should* be fine, at least this is what I'm getting from the info.

 

As long as no foreign flagged ship (not ships - ship) transports someone from one US city to another (without stopping at a distant foreign port) then there is no violation of the PVSA. A person could go on twenty different ships as long as no one ship transports that person from one US city to another without stopping at a distant foreign port. Or, a person could go on one ship, visit every city in the US (which would be a big news in Phoenix) and end the cruise in Vancouver, Canada and be fine.

[Pee-ah]

as long as no foreign flagged ship (not ships - ship) transports someone from one us city to another (without stopping at a distant foreign port) then there is no violation of the pvsa. A person could go on twenty different ships as long as no one ship transports that person from one us city to another without stopping at a distant foreign port. Or, a person could go on one ship, visit every city in the us (which would be a big news in phoenix) and end the cruise in vancouver, canada and be fine.

thank you!!!!!!!

[Justsyd]

If you are going from San Diego to Vancouver then this is not a violation of the PVSA because the ship is transporting you from San Diego to Vancouver, which is in Canada (at least that is where it was when I was there).

 

Canada is not a foreign port.

 

An exception to this general rule allows passengers to be transported between two U.S. ports if the cruise itinerary includes a port call at a “distant foreign port”. Distant foreign ports do NOT include Canada, Mexico, Central America, Bermuda and most Caribbean islands. South America and the ABC islands (Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao) do qualify as distant foreign ports.

[Cuizer2]

Its still there...

 

So my B2B is okay?

(and can i buy you a drink when i am in La in the fall);)

 

Yes your B2B is fine. It gets very easy when you begin or end in a foreign city, because that alone is enough to avoid the issue the PVSA deals with. Only when you take multiple cruises between two different US cities does a problem potentially develop.

[missesmamax3]

As long as no foreign flagged ship (not ships - ship) transports someone from one US city to another (without stopping at a distant foreign port) then there is no violation of the PVSA. A person could go on twenty different ships as long as no one ship transports that person from one US city to another without stopping at a distant foreign port. Or, a person could go on one ship, visit every city in the US (which would be a big news in Phoenix) and end the cruise in Vancouver, Canada and be fine.

 

 

No, I think you have it wrong. It's the other way around. You can begin and end in different ports if you stop at a distant port (and Canada and Mexico do not count).

 

Edit: I apologize, I read it wrong. That's what 2 days without more than an hour of sleep thanks to a 5 month old can do to you :)