Jones Act

[Cuizer2]

Canada is not a foreign port.

 

Canada is a country - a foreign country (at least as far as the USA is concerned). Thus any port in Canada is a foreign port. However, there are no ports in Canada that the PVSA considers to be a "distant foreign port".

[missesmamax3]

Its still there...

 

So my B2B is okay?

(and can i buy you a drink when i am in La in the fall);)

 

 

Are you on the same ship the entire time? Every leg of the journey? Then no, it's not.

 

Canada and Mexico are not foreign ports.

 

You can't be transported between two different US cities on the same ship without visiting a (distant) foreign port.

[Pee-ah]

Canada is a country - a foreign country (at least as far as the USA is concerned). Thus any port in Canada is a foreign port. However, there are no ports in Canada that the PVSA considers to be a "distant foreign port".

 

i agree.. I have an election in May.. when is yours:rolleyes:

[Justsyd]

Are you on the same ship the entire time? Every leg of the journey? Then no, it's not.

 

Canada and Mexico are not foreign ports.

 

You can't be transported between two different US cities on the same ship without visiting a (distant) foreign port.

 

Thank you! :D

[Justsyd]

Canada is a country - a foreign country (at least as far as the USA is concerned). Thus any port in Canada is a foreign port. However, there are no ports in Canada that the PVSA considers to be a "distant foreign port".

 

Oh c'mon - stop nit picking! LOL. You knew exactly what I was saying - that Canada is not considered a distance foreign port...you can get that from this entire thread conversation. :D

[Pee-ah]

Are you on the same ship the entire time? Every leg of the journey? Then no, it's not.

 

Canada and Mexico are not foreign ports.

 

You can't be transported between two different US cities on the same ship without visiting a (distant) foreign port.

 

Okay so..

Last year i took a cruise that left NYC

Visited Halifax (Canada)

Then St John (also Canada)

Then Portland MA (went through Customs)

The Boston

 

So i guess i was in voilation then too and every one else on the ship;) as no one visited a foreign port. :rolleyes:

[Cuizer2]

On both my last cruises.. Canada was and is considered a distant port...

 

(they were Alaska- left from Vancouver and the Maritime/New England that left from NYC)

 

Okay, lets make sure we are all talking the same language here.

 

The PVSA is a US rule. It is not a Canadian rule. Canada may have a similar rule, but if it does it is not the PVSA. So, any port outside the US is a foreign port.

 

That said, there are NO "distant foreign port" in North or Central America. Canada is in North America. Thus there are no "distant foreign ports" in Canada.

 

Beginning or ending a cruise in a foreign port is the easiest way around the PVSA. That is why cruises that begin or end in Hawaii begin or end in either Ensenada or Vancouver.

 

However, if you are on a ship that goes from Hawaii to Ensenada to San Diego to Vancouver and you board the ship in Hawaii and do not disembark until you reach Vancouver, then you are disembarking in a foreign port and thus you are not being transported between two US ports. Thus you have not violated the PVSA.

 

The important issue is where did you embark the ship and where did you disembark the ship. If one of those two is a foreign port, then you cannot be in violation of the PVSA.

[missesmamax3]

Okay so..

Last year i took a cruise that left NYC

Visited Halifax (Canada)

Then St John (also Canada)

Then Portland MA (went through Customs)

The Boston

 

So i guess i was in voilation then too and every one else on the ship;) as no one visited a foreign port. :rolleyes:

 

First of all, was it a US flagged ship? If it was, you were fine.

 

 

 

It is important to be aware of the effect that the Passenger Services Act (PSA) has on certain combined itineraries. The Passenger Services Act prohibits ships of non-U.S. registry from embarking and disembarking passengers at two different U.S. ports.

 

Such travel would constitute point-to-point transportation between two U.S. ports, a practice prohibited on foreign flagged vessels. Virtually all cruise vessels are foreign-flagged; therefore must adhere to the requirements of the Passengers Services Act.

 

An exception to this general rule allows passengers to be transported between two U.S. ports if the cruise itinerary includes a port call at a “distant foreign port”.

 

Distant foreign ports do NOT include Canada, Mexico, Central America, Bermuda and most Caribbean islands. South America and the ABC islands (Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao) do qualify as distant foreign ports.

 

The Passenger Services Act (PSA) became law in 1886 and has been a part of U.S. cabotage law ever since. The law was designed to protect the United States domestic transportation industries (as applicable to both merchant and passenger vessels). The PSA grants U.S. flagged vessels the right to transport cargo and passengers between U.S. ports.

 

Here are some examples of legal and illegal itineraries:

 

A cruise originating and terminating in Ft. Lauderdale is permitted since passengers were returned to their original port of embarkation and, thus, no point-to-point transportation occurred. A cruise originating in Ft. Lauderdale and terminating in Los Angeles is permitted providing that the cruise itinerary includes a South American port or one of the ABC (Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao) islands.

 

A cruise originating in Los Angeles or Seattle and terminating in Whittier is NOT permitted since the cruise originates and terminates in different U.S. cities and does not call at a distant foreign port

 

Distant foreign ports do NOT include Canada, Mexico, Central America, Bermuda and most Caribbean islands. South America and the ABC islands do qualify as distant foreign ports.

 

In addition, passengers may travel between 2 U.S. ports if they travel on 2 different ships as Passenger Services Act violations are ship-specific. A violation occurs when a ship (not two ships) transports passengers between two different U.S. ports.

 

Even if the passengers disembark completely from the 1st voyage and then return to the pier to embark the 2nd voyage – it is still a violation of the PSA.

Interesting stuff courtesy of Princess Cruises.

[Kiln Wood]

Oh c'mon - stop nit picking! LOL. You knew exactly what I was saying - that Canada is not considered a distance foreign port...you can get that from this entire thread conversation. :D

 

Even though it's late and I'm tired, you do sound quite knowledgable on this subject! In theory would I be able to sail on the Spirit from Seattle to Vancouver on the first cruise; then from Vancouver to Honolulu on the second cruise; and finally from Honolulu to Sydney on the third cruise?

That would be B2B2B. I am an American citizen.

[ferfoodle]

I posted this in the other thread too. But this thread is more active, so I am reposting here.

 

So what if a cruise goes from Los Angeles to Ft. Lauderdale via the Panama canal. They are unable to make their call say in Aruba (assuming Aruba is more South America than Central America or Caribbean). Does everyone on board then get charged a penalty because of the missed port? Because all other ports of call are Mexico, Central America and Caribbean.

[Cuizer2]

Canada and Mexico are not foreign ports.

 

Canada and Mexico are countries. Both are foreign countries as far as the USA is concerned. ANY port in either Canada or Mexico is a foreign port. However, there are no "distant foreign ports" in either Canada or Mexico.

[missesmamax3]

I posted this in the other thread too. But this thread is more active, so I am reposting here.

 

So what if a cruise goes from Los Angeles to Ft. Lauderdale via the Panama canal. They are unable to make their call say in Aruba (assuming Aruba is more South America than Central America or Caribbean). Does everyone on board then get charged a penalty because of the missed port? Because all other ports of call are Mexico, Central America and Caribbean.

 

I think that would be fine because the INTENDED port of call on the itinerary is in Aruba (Aruba is part of the ABC islands which PVSA says is considered "distant foreign ports"). Maybe they would stop at another port just to make sure they cleared? $300 x 3000+ passengers = not taking chances lol

[Kethry88]

Oh c'mon - stop nit picking! LOL. You knew exactly what I was saying - that Canada is not considered a distance foreign port...you can get that from this entire thread conversation. :D

 

 

I think you may be misunderstanding. :o The cruise the OP is talking about (if you count the entire voyage) BEGINS in SAN DIEGO and ENDS in VANCOUVER. This isn't any different from the single voyage repositioning cruises that do the same thing, or the ones that sail from Honolulu to Ensenada or Vancouver.

 

The OP's cruise is not beginning in a US city and ending in a different US city. It's beginning in a US city and ending in a Canadian city. It's fine, and doesn't violate the Passenger act.

[missesmamax3]

Canada and Mexico are countries. Both are foreign countries as far as the USA is concerned. ANY port in either Canada or Mexico is a foreign port. However, there are no "distant foreign ports" in either Canada or Mexico.

 

 

Okay, they are foreign ports that DON'T COUNT in the PVSA.. Lay off it.

[Cuizer2]

Okay so..

Last year i took a cruise that left NYC

Visited Halifax (Canada)

Then St John (also Canada)

Then Portland MA (went through Customs)

The Boston

 

So i guess i was in voilation then too and every one else on the ship;) as no one visited a foreign port. :rolleyes:

 

Did the ship go round trip from NYC to NYC? If so, then it is not a violation of the PVSA because no one was being transported between two US ports. NYC is NYC whether you are coming or going. So if the ship left NYC, then went to Halifax, then went to St. John, then went to Portland, then went to Boston and then returned to NYC, then that is a round trip or closed loop cruise.

 

The rules for round trip or closed loop cruises are different. Then all the ship has to do is either not visit any port (a cruise to nowhere - CTN) or visit at least one foreign port (like the two that are in Canada). A visit to a "distant foreign port" is not required for a closed loop cruise.

[Cuizer2]

Even though it's late and I'm tired, you do sound quite knowledgable on this subject! In theory would I be able to sail on the Spirit from Seattle to Vancouver on the first cruise; then from Vancouver to Honolulu on the second cruise; and finally from Honolulu to Sydney on the third cruise?

That would be B2B2B. I am an American citizen.

 

Yes, you are ending in a foreign country, so you have not been transported between two US ports. Thus it is not a violation of the PVSA.

[Cuizer2]

I posted this in the other thread too. But this thread is more active, so I am reposting here.

 

So what if a cruise goes from Los Angeles to Ft. Lauderdale via the Panama canal. They are unable to make their call say in Aruba (assuming Aruba is more South America than Central America or Caribbean). Does everyone on board then get charged a penalty because of the missed port? Because all other ports of call are Mexico, Central America and Caribbean.

 

Given the scenario you have posted the cruise line could be fined $300 per person. Since the passengers are not at fault the cruise line would be unable to pass this fine along to the passengers.

 

However, CPB can waive or reduce the fine. It is like speeding while trying to get someone to the hospital. Yes you broke the law, but the fine can be waived given the circumstances. The same happens with cruise ships.

 

The latest that I know about is a cruise that left from Galveston but could not return to Galveston because of a hurricane. The passengers were dropped off in Florida and New Orleans. The passengers were not fined. I don't know if the cruise line was, or if the cruise line ended up with a reduced fine. Ask Carnival - it was their cruise.

[missesmamax3]

I think you may be misunderstanding. :o The cruise the OP is talking about (if you count the entire voyage) BEGINS in SAN DIEGO and ENDS in VANCOUVER. This isn't any different from the single voyage repositioning cruises that do the same thing, or the ones that sail from Honolulu to Ensenada or Vancouver.

 

The OP's cruise is not beginning in a US city and ending in a different US city. It's beginning in a US city and ending in a Canadian city. It's fine, and doesn't violate the Passenger act.

 

 

I believe the OP also said in one of the posts that someone said the trip from SD ending in Alaska was against PVSA, I thought that's what they were talking about. I completely missed the not ending in Alaska part. The wording was confusing.

[Kiln Wood]

Yes, you are ending in a foreign country, so you have not been transported between two US ports. Thus it is not a violation of the PVSA.

 

Thank you!!!

[missesmamax3]

My apologies :o

 

I saw SD to AK and thought that's what OP was doing. I'm sleepy.. Sorry guys :o

[richkinkade]

I think everyone is misunderstanding the problem. The first cruise is SD, Ensenada Hawaii ending in SD. Ignore it. It has no bearing on the problem.

 

The second cruise is SD to Vancouver and the third is Vancouver to Alaska. "Then the next cruise is from SD to Vancouver (Home for us).. then the next is Vancouver to Alaska."

 

Together those two constitute a cruise from SD to Alaska, not stopping at a distant foreign port. Assuming they are on the same ship, and the cruise ends in Alaska (or Seattle) this is a violation of the PVSA.

 

The problem is not a fine. the problem is that, when the cruise line discovers it (which they will), they will cancel the booking.

[JLC@SD]

Are you on the same ship the entire time? Every leg of the journey? Then no, it's not.

 

Canada and Mexico are not foreign ports.

 

You can't be transported between two different US cities on the same ship without visiting a (distant) foreign port.

 

OP's ticker indicates they are going start from a US port (San Diego) and will end at a foreign port (Vancouver, Canada) they are not being transported between two different US ports. A distant foreign port is not required.

 

They are taking an 18 day trip (on one ship the Spirit) from SD to Vancouver.

[fleckle]

I think everyone is misunderstanding the problem. The first cruise is SD, Ensenada Hawaii ending in SD. Ignore it. It has no bearing on the problem.

 

The second cruise is SD to Vancouver and the third is Vancouver to Alaska. "Then the next cruise is from SD to Vancouver (Home for us).. then the next is Vancouver to Alaska."

 

Together those two constitute a cruise from SD to Alaska, not stopping at a distant foreign port. Assuming they are on the same ship, and the cruise ends in Alaska (or Seattle) this is a violation of the PVSA.

 

The problem is not a fine. the problem is that, when the cruise line discovers it (which they will), they will cancel the booking.

BINGO!

Richkinkade nailed it right there!

 

In summary, there is no problem at all with this itinerary if they end the cruise at Vancouver.

There is only a problem if they want to continue on the same ship to Alaska because the ship would then be transferring them between a California port and an Alaska port, which is a no-no. But fortunately, it is easy to work around this problem.

 

When we encountered a similar situation a few years ago, we were told that the only way we could legally do the entire itinerary on the same ship would be if the ship remained in Vancouver for more than 24 hours before continuing on. (Somehow I don't think the passengers will be able to convince the captain to keep the ship docked in Vancouver for 24 hours if it is scheduled to leave for Alaska that night).

 

The other, more likely option would be to disembark in Vancouver and board another ship to Alaska. As long as it is a different ship, there would be no time restriction. They may even be able to disembark the first ship at Canada Place, walk right across the pier and get on the next ship.

 

But my personal preference would be to get off the ship and spend at least a few days in Vancouver before continuing on to Alaska. I admit that I am biased because Vancouver is one of my favorite cities in the world.

 

There are plenty of Alaska cruises out of Vancouver offered by multiple cruise lines, so finding another ship for that last segment should not be hard to do.

 

I hope the OP has a wonderful trip and comes back here to let us know how it all worked out.

[missesmamax3]

OP's ticker indicates they are going start from a US port (San Diego) and will end at a foreign port (Vancouver, Canada) they are not being transported between two different US ports. A distant foreign port is not required.

 

They are taking an 18 day trip (on one ship the Spirit) from SD to Vancouver.

 

Yes, I already apologized for this- OP also mentioned Alaska in a further post down and that confused me.

[friedshrimp]

I believe the OP also said in one of the posts that someone said the trip from SD ending in Alaska was against PVSA, I thought that's what they were talking about. I completely missed the not ending in Alaska part. The wording was confusing.

 

But then isn't every cruise that goes from Seattle to Whitter or Whittier to Seattle in violation? 2 different US ports without a distant foreign port in between? It wouldn't even matter if it was a B2B or not.