Jones Act

[H82seaUgo]

the jones act pertains to cargo only.

 

you want to discuss and research the passengers services act.

 

putting that in your title might help your search.

[PAPERBKWRITER]

Sounds like the Jones Act needs a little updating. The information on this thread is confusing. I thought that ships sailing (foriegn flagged) from an American port had to stop at a foriegn port to comply with the law. Someone said that the ship couldn't shuttle passengers between American cities, that's exactly what Panama Canal cruises do, but they do stop at foreign ports.

[tracyvansmith]

Okay, lets make sure we are all talking the same language here.

 

The PVSA is a US rule. It is not a Canadian rule. Canada may have a similar rule, but if it does it is not the PVSA. So, any port outside the US is a foreign port.

 

That said, there are NO "distant foreign port" in North or Central America. Canada is in North America. Thus there are no "distant foreign ports" in Canada.

 

Beginning or ending a cruise in a foreign port is the easiest way around the PVSA. That is why cruises that begin or end in Hawaii begin or end in either Ensenada or Vancouver.

 

However, if you are on a ship that goes from Hawaii to Ensenada to San Diego to Vancouver and you board the ship in Hawaii and do not disembark until you reach Vancouver, then you are disembarking in a foreign port and thus you are not being transported between two US ports. Thus you have not violated the PVSA.

 

The important issue is where did you embark the ship and where did you disembark the ship. If one of those two is a foreign port, then you cannot be in violation of the PVSA.

 

Cuizer2 is right. PVSA does not matter what stops you make in the middle it only cares about where you Sart and End your cruise.

 

You can not Start your cruise in one US city and End your cruise in another US city with out visiting a Distant Foreign port.

 

If you start your B2B in a US city but end it any where but the US it is fine. So if you start in San Diego (US city) and end it in Vancouver (none US city) you are fine.

 

I am a TA so I do know what I am taking about.

[tracyvansmith]

the jones act pertains to cargo only.

 

you want to discuss and research the passengers services act.

 

putting that in your title might help your search.

 

Sounds like the Jones Act needs a little updating. The information on this thread is confusing. I thought that ships sailing (foriegn flagged) from an American port had to stop at a foriegn port to comply with the law. Someone said that the ship couldn't shuttle passengers between American cities, that's exactly what Panama Canal cruises do, but they do stop at foreign ports.

 

The Jones act for cruise ships has more to deal with the workers. If the ship is a foriegn flagged ship it has to have one foriegn port (not distant so mexico and canada are good in this one) or the ship must have (I think not 100% sure on the % of workers) 75% of it workers be US citizens. The only cruise ship that I know of that does this is NCL that sails around Hawaii. That is why you will see so many US workers on it compaired to other cuise ships.

[babyblue78]

Sounds like the Jones Act needs a little updating. The information on this thread is confusing. I thought that ships sailing (foriegn flagged) from an American port had to stop at a foriegn port to comply with the law. Someone said that the ship couldn't shuttle passengers between American cities, that's exactly what Panama Canal cruises do, but they do stop at foreign ports.

 

I think that the Panama Canal crossings include a stop in Aruba, Cartegena, etc (distant foreign port) to comply with the PVSA.

[big_duck]

So the B2B originating in SD and finishing in Vancouver is Okay (sorry for askign for over clarification.. i'm a PM and its all about the risk:p)

 

But the B2B originating in SD and in Seattle isn't:confused:

 

(and thank you!!!! for being up and answering)

 

Correct.

 

On both my last cruises.. Canada was and is considered a distant port...

 

(they were Alaska- left from Vancouver and the Maritime/New England that left from NYC)

 

The problem is the ship. If she is on the same ship for both cruises, then yes, it is in violation of the PVSA. If it's two different ships, she *should* be fine, at least this is what I'm getting from the info.

 

Incorrect. Vancouver to Alaska - Vancouver as the origin port - Jones Act does not apply.

 

Maritime/New England from NYC - Closed loop cruise departing and ending in same port - Jones Act doesn't apply (or else all CTNs would be illegal).

[KarenMF]

Originally Posted by missesmamax3 View Post

The problem is the ship. If she is on the same ship for both cruises, then yes, it is in violation of the PVSA. If it's two different ships, she *should* be fine, at least this is what I'm getting from the info.

 

Correct.

 

Incorrect. Vancouver to Alaska - Vancouver as the origin port - Jones Act does not apply.

 

 

But you missed the part where the SHIP started in SD, STOPS in Vancouver (for less than 24 hours) and then goes on to Alaska. So a passenger who gets on that ship in SD and continues to Alaska IS in violation of the Passenger Services Act, even if though it is two separate sailings and even if they got off the ship and re-embarked.

[big_duck]

Originally Posted by missesmamax3 View Post

The problem is the ship. If she is on the same ship for both cruises, then yes, it is in violation of the PVSA. If it's two different ships, she *should* be fine, at least this is what I'm getting from the info.

 

 

 

But you missed the part where the SHIP started in SD, STOPS in Vancouver (for less than 24 hours) and then goes on to Alaska. So a passenger who gets on that ship in SD and continues to Alaska IS in violation of the Passenger Services Act, even if though it is two separate sailings and even if they got off the ship and re-embarked.

 

I didn't miss anything. The Law doesn't know from bookings, only starting point and finish point.

 

If they changed ships, or disembarked in Vancouver and spent a night in a hotel there would be no issue.

[cajunchick]

I'm sure it's safe to say that the cruise line is well aware of what they can or cannot do. :D

[tallyho8]

But then isn't every cruise that goes from Seattle to Whitter or Whittier to Seattle in violation? 2 different US ports without a distant foreign port in between? It wouldn't even matter if it was a B2B or not.

 

That would be a violation. This is why there are NO cruises that go from Seattle to Whittier or from Whittier to Seattle.

[KarenMF]

Originally Posted by KarenMF View Post

Originally Posted by missesmamax3 View Post

The problem is the ship. If she is on the same ship for both cruises, then yes, it is in violation of the PVSA. If it's two different ships, she *should* be fine, at least this is what I'm getting from the info.

 

But you missed the part where the SHIP started in SD, STOPS in Vancouver (for less than 24 hours) and then goes on to Alaska. So a passenger who gets on that ship in SD and continues to Alaska IS in violation of the Passenger Services Act, even if though it is two separate sailings and even if they got off the ship and re-embarked.

 

I didn't miss anything. The Law doesn't know from bookings, only starting point and finish point.

 

If they changed ships, or disembarked in Vancouver and spent a night in a hotel there would be no issue.

 

Apparently there is if it is booked as B2B....

[salty dingo]

Make sure you do NOT book a B2B. Pack up and leave the ship like any other passenger after the first leg. Do not make the two legs linked in any way. Two bookings, two deposits, two final payments, etc. per person.

 

Got it?

[Cuizer2]

But then isn't every cruise that goes from Seattle to Whitter or Whittier to Seattle in violation? 2 different US ports without a distant foreign port in between? It wouldn't even matter if it was a B2B or not.

 

There are no one way cruises from Seattle. All the one way cruises begin or end in Vancouver.

[Cuizer2]

Sounds like the Jones Act needs a little updating. The information on this thread is confusing. I thought that ships sailing (foriegn flagged) from an American port had to stop at a foriegn port to comply with the law. Someone said that the ship couldn't shuttle passengers between American cities, that's exactly what Panama Canal cruises do, but they do stop at foreign ports.

 

There are two kinds of cruises and the rules for each are different.

 

1) Closed loop or round trip cruises (begin and end in the same port). These cruises are either cruises to nowhere (CTN) or if the ship stops at any port, then at least one port must be a foreign port - any foreign port.

 

2) If the ship leaves from one US city and ends in a different US city, then the ship must make at least one stop at a DISTANT FOREIGN PORT. There are no distant foreign ports in North or Central America.

[Cuizer2]

Originally Posted by missesmamax3 View Post

The problem is the ship. If she is on the same ship for both cruises, then yes, it is in violation of the PVSA. If it's two different ships, she *should* be fine, at least this is what I'm getting from the info.

 

 

 

But you missed the part where the SHIP started in SD, STOPS in Vancouver (for less than 24 hours) and then goes on to Alaska. So a passenger who gets on that ship in SD and continues to Alaska IS in violation of the Passenger Services Act, even if though it is two separate sailings and even if they got off the ship and re-embarked.

 

The problem is people are talking about at least three different itineraries and believe the OP is on all of them. At this rate the OP will need to spend six months on the ship to complete all the different cruises that everyone thinks the OP is on.

 

Here is the OP's itinerary - from the OP's post - Post # 13 ...

 

Me and the unit (maternal) are leaving San Diego on April 13th 2102 and arriving back in San Diego on the 28th.. then the ship leaves San Diego and arrives in Vancouver Bc (bring cash) on May 1st

[Cuizer2]

I'm sure it's safe to say that the cruise line is well aware of what they can or cannot do. :D

 

That may be true of the cruise lines - but not the cruise line employees. Even John Heald got this wrong in one of his blogs.

[Cuizer2]

Make sure you do NOT book a B2B. Pack up and leave the ship like any other passenger after the first leg. Do not make the two legs linked in any way. Two bookings, two deposits, two final payments, etc. per person.

 

Got it?

 

We went through this with you in a prior PVSA thread. You were wrong then and you are wrong now. It does not matter if it is one cruise or twenty. The PVSA applies to the ship - not to the number of cruises.

[salty dingo]

We went through this with you in a prior PVSA thread. You were wrong then and you are wrong now. It does not matter if it is one cruise or twenty. The PVSA applies to the ship - not to the number of cruises.

It's not a question of right or wrong. It is a matter of practicality.

 

Do you think Carnival or the US authorities have any way to know a violation of the Jones Act exists, when there are two separate bookings?

 

Forget the technicalities, if they cannot enforce it then it is not going to be a problem!

[Cuizer2]

It's not a question of right or wrong. It is a matter of practicality.

 

Do you think Carnival or the US authorities have any way to know a violation of the Jones Act exists, when there are two separate bookings?

 

Forget the technicalities, if they cannot enforce it then it is not going to be a problem!

 

Yes, they do have that ability.

 

Your logic seems to be it is okay to break the law as long as you don't get caught.

[Pee-ah]

Thank you everyone I now have a much better understanding :D

[friedshrimp]

There are no one way cruises from Seattle. All the one way cruises begin or end in Vancouver.

 

And this is what I didn't know. I had seen there were cruises from Seattle, I didn't know they were all round trip from/to Seattle.

[fleckle]

.......

Do you think Carnival or the US authorities have any way to know a violation of the Jones Act exists, when there are two separate bookings?....

Yes they most certainly do.

 

The reason I can state this with certainty is because it happened to us several years ago when we had two separate bookings under similar circumstances. We had both legs booked and paid in full and thought we were all set to go.

Then, shortly before we were ready to leave, we got the bad news telling us we could not do it.

 

That is how we first learned about the Passenger Vessel Services Act (which is commonly called the Jones Act, but it really is not).

 

The routine checking of the manifest reveals whether or not the same people are booked on each leg. That is done close to sailing, which is why it is possible to book the two segments separately and pay for them, but not have it detected until much later.

[crzndeb]

Salty Dingo,

 

Why do you keep referring to it by the incorrect name (Jones Act)? Just wondering? Just to be onery? LOL!!!

[fleckle]

Please help as googling has done little for me.

 

My maternal unit and i are doing a Hawaii crusie next year from San Diego (return stoping in Mexico)and then a return trip back to Vancouver (as the Spirit is doing a repo to position for AK). .......

The cruise that me and the unit (mother) and I are on stops in Mexico the night before arriving in SD. Then the next cruise is from SD to Vancouver (Home for us).. then the next is Vancouver to Alaska............

Pia, I just looked back at your original posts and it is not clear whether you are planning to take 2 cruises or 3.

 

(1) Do you intend to end your cruise in Vancouver?

 

or

 

(2) Do you intend to continue on to Alaska on the same ship?

 

If the answer to (1) is Yes, you have absolutely no problem and can entirely ignore everything that has been posted on both threads on this subject.

None of it will apply to you at all.

 

However, if the answer to (2) is Yes, then the Passenger Vessel Services Act would apply, but only to the Alaska part.

 

By the way, that Spirit cruise to Alaska ends in Seattle, not in Alaska, but the PVSA still applies because it ends at a U.S. port.

 

Either way, you can safely ignore most of what has been posted on both threads since most of it discusses various requirements that do not pertain to your situation.

 

Since Vancouver is home for you, you are in a very fortunate position. You can get right off the ship and go home. Living in Vancouver, you can easily take another Alaska cruise whenever you like.

[Cuizer2]

Pia, I just looked back at your original posts and it is not clear whether you are planning to take 2 cruises or 3.

 

(1) Do you intend to end your cruise in Vancouver?

 

or

 

(2) Do you intend to continue on to Alaska on the same ship?

 

If the answer to (1) is Yes, you have absolutely no problem and can entirely ignore everything that has been posted on both threads on this subject.

None of it will apply to you at all.

 

However, if the answer to (2) is Yes, then the Passenger Vessel Services Act would apply, but only to the Alaska part.

 

By the way, that Spirit cruise to Alaska ends in Seattle, not in Alaska, but the PVSA still applies because it ends at a U.S. port.

 

Either way, you can safely ignore most of what has been posted on both threads since most of it discusses various requirements that do not pertain to your situation.

 

Since Vancouver is home for you, you are in a very fortunate position. You can get right off the ship and go home. Living in Vancouver, you can easily take another Alaska cruise whenever you like.

 

See post # 13.