NCL SUN art auction beware

[artistsj]

I just returned form a cruise on the NCL Sun. As an artist I was very interested in the art auction. I signed up for a bidding card even though I had no intention of bidding. It did add my name to the raffle though. DID IT? I noticed two things. First, the winners all were bidders. Second, when the raffle tickets came forward they were in two buckets. One smaller than the other. The actioneer and the poeple in the back,( office support), are in communication via computers. It is the job of the office support to keep track of which bidders have signed in and which have bid successfully. When the actioneer began to draw raffle tickets he put the smaller bucket in the larger one. Gee I wonder why there were to buckets and why he only drew from one of them? :rolleyes:

 

Next if you do intend to buy art please remember that most of the pieces are prints. Most are signed by the artist, this is good. Some are pulled from original plated made by Rembrandt and other historically signifcant artist but they are not pulled by the artist nor are they signed by the artist. Any amount can be made and the value is questionable.

 

I am an origanal snob. If you buy a print you are buying somethig you like, not an investment unless it is signed by a historically significant person. In other words you are buying the signature. All other prints are speculative as to whether the artist will make history. So do your home work as to who is truely worth to price of their signature.

 

Last, this auctioneer on the Sun is a great salesman. He placed a mystery auction up for sale. If you bid on this you do not have to buy it. They are turned backwards so you have no idea what you are bidding on. The auctioneer set the price at $5,800.00 each and insisted that he could not let them go unless 15 people bid on them and assured everyone thay would hate them selves if they missed out. When revealed there were 8 or 9 prints from original plates but not pulled or signed by the artist. And he then said " Did I say $5,800.00? I should have said $6,800.00. Did I really say that? Are you sure? Well, now I am in trouble. Well, it will be alright. Let's take a break right now." What do you think? Did these people save $8 to $9,000.00 by going ahead and making the purchase or was that the slickest sales pitch you ever heard? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Buying all 8 would be a $46,000.00 sale! Nice commission on that sale. And you saved so much due to his mistake!

[Host CMLA]

Buying all 8 would be a $46,000.00 sale! Nice commission on that sale. And you saved so much due to his mistake!

So...You're saying buyer beware? I've been to several on board auctions and I've never been made to believe that I would be buying an original or something so valuable that it's a good thing I took the cruise because I would have missed out on a once in a lifetime piece. It's a business. It's their job to sell you art. It's our job to not let them snow us. ;)

 

Who knows what happened with the raffle. I won a raffle at an art auction on the Dream and I didn't buy a piece of art.

[mbisson]

I'm starting to think my Rembrant might be a reproduction..

 

LOL

-Monte

[Markandrews]

I always have an uneasy feeling about the art auction and Park West in general. When we sailed SFO-HNL on the Pride of Aloha the auctioneer was a retired televangilist. He was (IMHO) sleazy. He was constantly on the PA system making mindless anouncements about the next auction. I would not have bought anything from him or his wife, (who just so happened to run the gift shop). While I realize that Park West Art gallery put him onboard I though he shed a poor light on NCLA. More recently on the Westerdam, the group that ran the art auction pressured us so much to buy art that we avoided passing the gallery area all together. I know that the auctions are a great source of revenue for the cruise lines but I wish they would screen the representatives that Park West puts on ships. I would much rather be hustled for specialty drinks on the pool deck. At least those guys do it with a knowing smile.

[Smooth Sailing]

You only get ripped off when you let yourself get ripped off - if you don't really know about the art and the artist and the signature thing - stay away - don't bid - don't let yourself be taken.

[DJ Dale]

I won the raffle at an art auction and never had a succesful winning bid.

 

There were some nice pieces but I never thought that they were originals. You can tell they are prints. I almost but a couple because the frames were worth what they sold for.

 

The way I look at it is...if someone gets pleasure out of bidding and winning something they like then more power to them.

[artistsj]

I won the raffle at an art auction and never had a succesful winning bid.

 

There were some nice pieces but I never thought that they were originals. You can tell they are prints. I almost but a couple because the frames were worth what they sold for.

 

The way I look at it is...if someone gets pleasure out of bidding and winning something they like then more power to them.

Oh they do tell you these are prints. But the public has been mislead by most galleries into thinking that prints are a good investment. It is my opioion that they are not unless they are signed by Picassio or Degas, etc. And as I do frame my owe pieces I know the framing prices they quote are greatly inflated. Of course you can spend $800.00 on a frame at any good framing gallery. You can also get a great frame direct from the manufacture for 1/4 the cost but you don't have access to that market.

 

I really just want those with no art action knowledge to beware.

[JoanB]

Last year, I purchased two pieces of art on the Dawn, and also paid for an official appraisal document. When the pictures arrived (about six weeks after the cruise), there were no appraisals included. I phoned the art auction house and notified them of their failure to provide the appraisals. They promised immediate shipment. Three weeks later, a second call produced the same promise. Another three weeks passed, and I threaten legal action. Two days later, I received two appraisals, one of which was for a painting I didn't purchase. I returned the faulty appraisal to the auction house, along with a cover letter, photograph, and complete description of the item I had purchased. After a month, no response, so I mailed a second copy of the letter/photograph/description using certified mail. I received the certified receipt card a week later, but have not received the correct appraisal or any other communication from the auction house. At this point, I'm too tired to deal with it any longer. They've won.

[artistsj]

This is just what I am trying to warn the public about. You can have a local gallery appraise the pieces. They have a list of prints and their current value which I have seen. But I really wonder who authored the list and why anyone would think a print by a new artist would be worth that. Have you ever tried to sell a diamond? Can you get any jeweler to pay you the appraised value? Prints are not a good investment in my opinion unless signed by someone quite famous. Even then will their art stand the test of time as Rembrandt has? However, if you like the art and can afford to put it on your wall you got your money's worth.

[newmexicoNita]

I won the raffle and didn't buy anything on one occassion. I think the public is aware they are not buying originals and art, like jewelry is only worth what someone is willing to pay. I did get an appraisal with my art pieces, so ha my daughter. She buys on every cruise, whether it's NCL, Celebrity, RCI or whatever. Just because my wedding ring is appraised at whatever doesn't mean I will ever find anyone buy it for that price, the same with the art. It's fun, you get to learn a little about art and add to your collection if you want. To me that's what it's all about. NM Nita

[zimmerjulie]

I haven't bought or even bid in the art auctions, although my Mom did on our last cruise. She didn't spend tons, and won some prints that she really enjoys. I agree that the cost that she paid for the framed prints was about the same as the cost of custom framing at a place like Michaels, etc, for her particular items.

 

I am one of those who got burned at an early age by a carnie game (sounded like a sure win--there went my hard-earned allowance:D ), so when I hear the hard-sell, I usually head the other direction. I simply don't get the televangalist appeal.

 

Just thought I would put these two, seemingly opposing, observations out there, along with the following quote from an art dealer that gave us a gallery tour in New Orleans when my young bro-in law was looking to invest in art:

 

Speaking in regards to the investment value of prints vs. original works and in a rather haughty voice with an upward tilt to the nose:

 

"One is art, two or more is merchandise".

 

 

P.S. My Mom gave me one of the framed prints that she purchased and I have really been enjoying it. I would only bid with the intent to have a piece that I enjoyed, not for investment value, so I might check it out next cruise.

 

Discouraging to hear of your suspicion regarding the raffle, artistsj. Glad to hear that some others have experienced winning the raffle without being a successful bidder.

 

Thanks for the new topic and the interesting replies.

[Globaliser]

One thing I will say about the art auctions: They are not auctions in the true sense of the word. Normally an auction will sell a specific thing, of which there is only the one. The auction sets the price for it.

 

On the ship, most of the stuff is limited edition prints. The way that Park West works, they've got a warehouse full of almost identical copies of each image. In some cases, they buy the entire run of the same image.

 

The auctioneer will usually be prepared to sell every image at the opening bid. Often, at the art auctions I go to, the opening bid is the only bid for each piece - if the auctioneer is lucky enough to get any interest at all. But the auctioneer will also usually be prepared to sell multiple copies of any image - after all, they're just coming out of the company's stock, like tins of beans off the shelf of a supermarket. You'll sometimes see this when several people are bidding for an image, and the auctioneer stops after a point and says, "OK, I'll be kind to you, you can each have one at that price."

 

So there's really little point bidding against anyone else for one of these prints, and little point offering to pay anything more than the opening bid. Unless you're absolutely wedded to getting a particular image, let the other bidder take the image, then go to the auctioneer afterwards and ask to buy a second copy from stock. He may say yes, he may say no. But either way you'll part with less money than if you entered a bidding war against the other bidder and then "won" the auction.

[cliffd64]

One thing I will say about the art auctions: They are not auctions in the true sense of the word. Normally an auction will sell a specific thing, of which there is only the one. The auction sets the price for it.

 

On the ship, most of the stuff is limited edition prints. The way that Park West works, they've got a warehouse full of almost identical copies of each image. In some cases, they buy the entire run of the same image.

 

The auctioneer will usually be prepared to sell every image at the opening bid. Often, at the art auctions I go to, the opening bid is the only bid for each piece - if the auctioneer is lucky enough to get any interest at all. But the auctioneer will also usually be prepared to sell multiple copies of any image - after all, they're just coming out of the company's stock, like tins of beans off the shelf of a supermarket. You'll sometimes see this when several people are bidding for an image, and the auctioneer stops after a point and says, "OK, I'll be kind to you, you can each have one at that price."

 

So there's really little point bidding against anyone else for one of these prints, and little point offering to pay anything more than the opening bid. Unless you're absolutely wedded to getting a particular image, let the other bidder take the image, then go to the auctioneer afterwards and ask to buy a second copy from stock. He may say yes, he may say no. But either way you'll part with less money than if you entered a bidding war against the other bidder and then "won" the auction.

 

Excellent analysis: :)

 

To that I would add the following, having been to several of these auctions:

 

Aside from limited edition hand signed lithography and seriolithography, they also sell original works at these auctions. There are oils/acryllic on canvas originals (certainly newer artists, not master painters) as well as special one of a kind works such as :

 

Peter Max acryilic paintings over lithography - these are one-of-a-kind acryllic paintings on top of a lithograph of an original Peter Max image, hand signed in the acryllic by the artist. While based on a true acryllic on canvas original, these are also unique (and therefore original works of art) as no two are the same and each has been painted over by the artist. If there are 50 made from an image, each one is different (colors etc) and unique. These are also VERY EXPENSIVE as you would expect. You can expect opening "bids" of $4000 - 5000 and up depending on the image.

 

You can also see and bid on many hand-embellished lithos and giclees on canvas or otherwise. These all have been hand-embellished (in acryllic usually) and signed by the original artist. This makes them different and unique from a standard limited edition print. You simply cannot paint acryllic embellishments the same way twice unless you are a machine :) You can see these from artists like Francois Ledan, Alfred Gockel, Tarkay etc. Typically these would have more value than a straight lithograph.

[DJ Dale]

The piece I won with the appraisal claiming its worth $700....

 

I found on eBay for $65. Glad I didnt pay for it.....

[jmcdon7230]

7

 

So there's really little point bidding against anyone else for one of these prints, and little point offering to pay anything more than the opening bid. Unless you're absolutely wedded to getting a particular image, let the other bidder take the image, then go to the auctioneer afterwards and ask to buy a second copy from stock. 7QUOTE]

 

Have you had an auctioneer sell you a print in this manner....for the opening bid after the bidding was closed?

[cliffd64]

The piece I won with the appraisal claiming its worth $700....

 

I found on eBay for $65. Glad I didnt pay for it.....

 

The free pieces are OPEN EDITION (meaning not limited in any way). There are literally thousands. They are not hand-signed, they are basically prmotional. The fact someone has the brass ones to sell it for $65 is amazing. Basically the raffle pieces are not going to be worth very much :) They are however, nice images on their own.

[sassycruiser]

I personally don't care for Park West. I thought that the old company that NCL used - Fine Art Sales (or something like that) was much better. I don't think I am getting some great deal, but they had some pretty prints at reasonable prices - such as $75.00. The Park West seems to be all more expensive things. I will spend $75.00 - $125.00 on something I like but that is my limit. I won't spend $5000.00 on a print! Thats just me.

 

By the way - I won a tanzanite pendant at an art auction on the Dream (or Wind) I am not sure. I had to pick it up at Tanzanite International in Key West and it was a long walk for a small pendant. But I was getting my free pendant no matter what!

[Globaliser]

Have you had an auctioneer sell you a print in this manner....for the opening bid after the bidding was closed?

Yes - I've probably picked up about half a dozen of my prints this way - most at NCL auctions.

 

The funniest one was a similar situation over one of those pieces which the auctioneer starts at a really low price, just to get people into the fun of it. This was a P&O ship so it was priced in sterling. Instead of asking for an opening bid of about £80 (which would have been consistent with similar images I'd seen at NCL auctions - the artist was Hazel Soan), the auctioneer started at £10. There was in fact some interest from others, but not that much. It was a very slow auction. I wasn't bidding, as I'd already got a pretty Soan, but one of my friends was interested. I think that it finally fizzled at about £45 or £50, which is what my friend got it for.

 

So I said to the auctioneer, at that price I'd love to have one too. And the auction had generally gone so badly that he was prepared to do it. :)

 

I have to say, though, that I am definitely talking about the prints with runs of several hundred, that usually start at about $100-150. This is not a technique I've tried with the expensive pieces - which my bank manager will not let me try for.

[artistsj]

One thing I will say about the art auctions: They are not auctions in the true sense of the word. Normally an auction will sell a specific thing, of which there is only the one. The auction sets the price for it.

 

On the ship, most of the stuff is limited edition prints. The way that Park West works, they've got a warehouse full of almost identical copies of each image. In some cases, they buy the entire run of the same image.

 

The auctioneer will usually be prepared to sell every image at the opening bid. Often, at the art auctions I go to, the opening bid is the only bid for each piece - if the auctioneer is lucky enough to get any interest at all. But the auctioneer will also usually be prepared to sell multiple copies of any image - after all, they're just coming out of the company's stock, like tins of beans off the shelf of a supermarket. You'll sometimes see this when several people are bidding for an image, and the auctioneer stops after a point and says, "OK, I'll be kind to you, you can each have one at that price."

 

So there's really little point bidding against anyone else for one of these prints, and little point offering to pay anything more than the opening bid. Unless you're absolutely wedded to getting a particular image, let the other bidder take the image, then go to the auctioneer afterwards and ask to buy a second copy from stock. He may say yes, he may say no. But either way you'll part with less money than if you entered a bidding war against the other bidder and then "won" the auction.

When a print sold for less at an auction than it did earlier in the week the auctioneer said " Don't worry if you bought one for more earlier this week , I will let you have it at this price." So you have offered good advise bout bidding which I really did not think about.

[tjosh7]

Can someone clear this up for me? Does anyone actually go on a cruise with the intention of buying art? I find the art announcements and announcers MOST annoying.... Obviously, it makes a lot of money for the cruiselines, which is why they have them on board.....

 

Sorry if I offend anyone here. That is not my intention.

[jmcdon7230]

Can someone clear this up for me? Does anyone actually go on a cruise with the intention of buying art? I find the art announcements and announcers MOST annoying.... Obviously, it makes a lot of money for the cruiselines, which is why they have them on board.....

 

Sorry if I offend anyone here. That is not my intention.

 

No offense taken. Hey, I find the bingo announcements annoying! Does anyone go on cruises for the intention of playing bingo?

 

We think of the art auctions as being fun, not for investment purposes, but for decorating ideas and free champagne!

[shoreguy]

Can someone clear this up for me? Does anyone actually go on a cruise with the intention of buying art? I find the art announcements and announcers MOST annoying.... Obviously, it makes a lot of money for the cruiselines, which is why they have them on board.....

 

Sorry if I offend anyone here. That is not my intention.

 

I am with you but many passengers enjoy the auctions and plan on bringing back a piece each cruise. It is all about choices.

 

I have to say it is a toss up which anouncements are most annoying Bingo or the Art Auction :mad:

[tjosh7]

Thanks for the enlightenment......I appreciate it.....And yes, it's all about choice......

 

Re: the bingo announcements - equally annoying.....LOL

 

HAPPY CRUISING!!!!

[shanmerryfan]

we just returned from our NCL Spririt cruise to bermuda and Melanie and her PW staff were phenomenal, forthright and the auctions were highly informative. Granted I'm totally new to the art world but I learned more about the art world in two days of auctions than i have in my whole life.They did not put ANYTHING in the auction that was not selected by us in the preview prior to the auction so there was absolutley no "shoving art down our throats" ... there were two auctions and two seminars. it was great and we were higly impressed with the PW staff. I've read a few internet posts that say they never received their artworked shipped after the cruise; hopefully that will not be our case. I'm very much looking forward to what i bought at auction AND won in the raffles. If you got snowed it wasn't from this particular group i assure you!

[HowardK]

I usually just get prints from allposters.com and get decent frames from walmart. You can also take your own pictures from the cruise, get them enlarged to 20x30 and frame them. To me, some 20x30's of a vegas trip are more meaningful to me than some prints i have