Need help/advice Intern.R/T ??

[Martita B.]

I need help and advice on booking AA International R/T flights ~

1st is April 6, 2012 Malaga to Dallas (AGP-DFW)

2nd is Dallas to Barcelona Nov. 13, 2012 (DFW-BCN)

I cannot book a round trip as the Nov. 13, 2012 is too far out.

What can I do? I would like to go ahead and make reservations just don't know how to do it ~

Thanks!

Martita B

[Gardyloo]

November 2012 bookings won't be possible until December/January 2011 (roughly 11 months prior to flying.)

 

You say "R/T" flights but then give an open-jaw itinerary (AGP-DFW-BCN). Could you clarify? If these are two legs of one trip (i.e. you're just flying twice) then April > November is probably too long a gap to get very good prices.

 

On the other hand, they're excellent times to use mileage - 20,000 miles each way, which you could purchase at aa.com for around 2.5c/mile, thus roughly $500 each way (or of course less if you already have AA miles.) AA only does one-way mileage redemptions, so you could book the AGP-DFW leg now, then wait until December and book the DFW-BCN one then. Might be worth investigating.

[Martita B.]

Sorry ~let me clarify.

I'll disembark a cruise ship in Malaga ~plan to fly to DFW on April 6th 2012. Then will fly TO Barcelona on Nov. 13, 2012 to embark a ship again.

The one-way ticket is way to expensive ~the R/T is reasonable.

Could I book the April flight and book the 2nd flight....say May or June of 2012 ~~then change the date to Nov., end of Dec.?

Thanks!

Martita

[6rugrats]

Yes, but if you do this, you'll pay a change fee, usually around $250, and then the difference in fare.

[Gardyloo]

First, it's not a round trip, it's an open-jaw trip (i.e. on a map it would look like an open mouth, or "V" shaped route - A to B, B to C.) Usually open-jaws are priced similarly to round trips, that is, 1/2 of the round trip fare applicable to each destination, added together.

 

However, with a gap of 6 or 7 months between the trips, you'll most likely find that you can't get the best prices, which usually have a 3- or 4 month allowable layover, sometimes less. This is usually due to the uncertainty the airlines would face in their own costs: over six months the price of fuel can go way up, or other costs can increase, so they hedge against that risk by upping the price for tickets with that long a time between the flights.

 

In order to get the best possible price for round trip or open-jaw itineraries, you have to wait until all legs of the trips are ticketable; in your case that means sometime around December/January this year. But even then, since you'll be looking at the return occurring almost a year in the future, you probably won't like the prices you see.

 

That's why I suggested going the FF mile route. Right now there's a ton of availability on AA over the Atlantic (both directions) in April, and while November isn't yet visible, it's usually a very slow time of the year, so I would expect plenty of room for the return.

 

Note that you might have to phone AA to get award reservations since one or both legs would involve the use of partner airlines, and you can't book awards that include partners on AA's website, only over the phone.

[Globaliser]

You say "R/T" flights but then give an open-jaw itinerary (AGP-DFW-BCN). Could you clarify? If these are two legs of one trip (i.e. you're just flying twice) then April > November is probably too long a gap to get very good prices.

I don't think that this will be an issue here. Most of the fares in the relevant markets (AGP-DFW-AGP and BCN-DFW-BCN) are 12 month max stays, so they would be valid for this proposed trip. Given the date of the OP's first half, I can see availability from about €860 - these are fares with 12 month max stays, so no issue with the planned gap.

 

At the moment, the change fee for tickets at this level is typically €120 or €150 or €180 or something like that. If the OP simply wants to change the date of the return sector (DFW-BCN), then many of the fare rules explicitly state that fares will be recalculated as at the date of original ticketing. So if there are no availability problems, the OP's strategy of booking a fictitious return date now to lock in the fare, and then waiting until availability opens up for November 2012 before changing the return half of the ticket, would not encounter a problem with this - it might only be a €120/€150/€180 change fee.

 

However, one issue that I don't know the answer to is ticket validity, which is normally a maximum of 12 months. I suspect that the answer may be that when the OP changes the return half, many airlines will reissue the ticket rather than revalidate it, so that the 12 month validity will restart from the reissue date.

[Martita B.]

Many thanks for your good suggestions and advice ~

Not sure just what I'll do ~ but I know I'm not willing to pay $2,500for coach Malaga to Dallas ~ (plan on using miles to upgrade to Bus.)

Martita

[Globaliser]

Not sure just what I'll do ~ but I know I'm not willing to pay $2,500for coach Malaga to Dallas ~ (plan on using miles to upgrade to Bus.)

First, there should be no need to pay that (assuming you're referring to the one-way fare). There will be ways of doing it cheaper. It's just a question of what works for you.

 

As you mention upgrades, and you specifically want to fly AA, do you know all the ins and outs of the rules about upgrades? In particular, do you know about this one?

Q. Can I use my miles to upgrade from discount Economy fares?

A. You can use miles and a co-pay to upgrade from discount Economy fares on American Airlines flights. However, upgrades on itineraries that include British Airways and Iberia are valid from full fares only.

AA does not fly to Malaga so any itinerary that starts from there will include a British Airways or Iberia flight. So if you want to be able to upgrade from a discount economy fare, you'd have to start your AA ticket from Madrid (or some other airport from which you can fly AA), and add on a separate ticket to get you there from Malaga.

 

And it looks like AA only flies to Barcelona from JFK, so you'd have to factor that into the return half as well.

[Martita B.]

Many thanks Globaliser ~

Yes, I'm aware AA doesn't fly to Malaga. I am flying AA Business to Madrid, then on to Malaga, Iberia 1st week of Nov. (flew same last April in reverse) The Iberia flight is coach, which is fine ~

I'll keep watch on AA fares ~hopefully will find a reasonable fare.

Martita

[Globaliser]

I'll keep watch on AA fares ~hopefully will find a reasonable fare.

Coincidentally, I was just having another look at this for you.

 

Your problem will not be finding a reasonable fare. At the moment, you can do something like MAD-DFW-BCN, all on AA-operated flights, for €810. I think you'd have to be lucky to do significantly better than that, although I know that the plan to rebook when November 2012 is available for booking means that you'd have to add €180 to that fare. But you could take a gamble on this, and wait until December/January to book the whole trip in one go to avoid having to pay the change fee.

 

The real problems will be more to do with schedules, if you want to upgrade using your AA miles. As you need to have AA-operated flights on all sectors on the itinerary on which you want to upgrade, you won't be able easily to fly back to DFW on the same day that you disembark the ship, because as far as I can see there aren't any AA-operated itineraries from any Western European gateway that leave late enough in the day to allow you to get back to DFW on the same day. About the only feasible one I can see is to fly LHR-ORD-DFW, departing LHR at 1715. But to get from AGP to LHR, you'd have to fly to LGW on a separate ticket and then transfer to LHR. Otherwise, everything else involves an impracticably early flight from AGP or impracticably tight connections. So you may well have to overnight before flying back to DFW, or overnight en route.

[Martita B.]

I will disembark the ship on April 4th ~fly April 6th.

The 9:25 am Iberia flight from Malaga to Madrid ~then AA on to Dallas is the flight I need/want.

Thanks!

Martita

[Globaliser]

I will disembark the ship on April 4th ~fly April 6th.

The 9:25 am Iberia flight from Malaga to Madrid ~then AA on to Dallas is the flight I need/want.

You're sorted then. The connection at MAD is long enough for it to be reasonably safe to buy AGP-MAD on a separate ticket.

[Fattony]

Call AA. If you book both legs of the same trip, arriving at one point and departing from another, you would check "multi-city" on AA's site (othter sites may use different terms). Sometimes that's more than a straight r.t., but sometimes not. In my experience I've found the fare depends more on the city (or cities involved) than rather I fly into and out of the same city. Virtually no sites use the term "open jaw." That was, at least at one time, a specific type of itinerary, where you flew into one city and out of another within a certain distance of one another (and thus could in some instances qualify for a lower fare than simply two one-way flights), but I haven't seen that term, except on sites such as this, for years. It sounds like you could book a one-way flight now, but if you want to be sure that's not going to cost you more than a multi-city fare, I'd wait until it was possible to book both legs. AA should be able to give you some advice now (and you could try sample dates you COULD book now, just to see what the numbers look like, in terms of two one-way fares vs. one multi-city fare).

[Globaliser]

Virtually no sites use the term "open jaw." That was, at least at one time, a specific type of itinerary, where you flew into one city and out of another within a certain distance of one another (and thus could in some instances qualify for a lower fare than simply two one-way flights), but I haven't seen that term, except on sites such as this, for years.

The term is not often used on public websites, but the "open jaw" concept remains firmly embedded in the fare rules which tell you what a fare can and can't be used for.

 

For example, AA's NKES2R fare for AGP-DFW-AGP on 6 April 2012 includes these rules:-

RULE APPLICATION AND OTHER CONDITIONS
  PUBLIC FARES
  APPLICATION
   AREA
    THESE FARES APPLY
     FROM SPAIN
     TO NORTH AMERICA.
   CLASS OF SERVICE
    THESE FARES APPLY FOR ECONOMY CLASS SERVICE.
   TYPES OF TRANSPORTATION
    FARES GOVERNED BY THIS RULE CAN BE USED TO CREATE
     ONE-WAY/ROUND-TRIP/CIRCLE-TRIP/OPEN-JAW JOURNEYS.

COMBINATIONS
  OPEN JAWS
    FARES MAY BE COMBINED ON A HALF ROUND TRIP BASIS
    -TO FORM SINGLE OR DOUBLE OPEN JAWS
     A MAXIMUM OF TWO INTERNATIONAL FARE COMPONENTS
     PERMITTED. MILEAGE OF THE OPEN SEGMENT MUST BE EQUAL/
     LESS THAN MILEAGE OF THE LONGEST FLOWN FARE
     COMPONENT.
    PROVIDED -
      WHEN THE OPEN SEGMENT OCCURS
      -WITHIN NORTH AMERICA OR WITHIN EUROPE
       COMBINATIONS ARE WITH ANY FARE FOR CARRIER AA/BA/
       IB IN ANY RULE IN TARIFF
       IPRA    - BETWEEN USA/CA-AREA 2/3 AND GUAM-AREA 2
       IPRAI   - BETWEEN THE USA/CANADA-AREA 2/3 VIA ATL
       IPRSAA2 - BETWEEN THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE-AREA 2
       VIA ATL.

It sounds like you could book a one-way flight now, but if you want to be sure that's not going to cost you more than a multi-city fare, I'd wait until it was possible to book both legs. AA should be able to give you some advice now (and you could try sample dates you COULD book now, just to see what the numbers look like, in terms of two one-way fares vs. one multi-city fare).

I think the numbers above conclusively demonstrate that even one one-way fare is more expensive than an open-jaw/multi-city fare that is bookable now and (if booked) will then be fixed for the OP's actual itinerary, subject only to a change fee, the availability of an N class seat on her actual DFW-BCN date, and the ticket maximum validity issue.

[Martita B.]

Thanks! I certainly appreciate your help and suggestions!

'Flyin' is for the birds!! :eek: I'll sort out these flights after continuous searching ~

Thanks again!

Martita

[Gardyloo]

A little math seems appropriate at this stage...

 

Say the OP scores an open-jaw itinerary for EUR800 +/- (say $1100 for the sake of argument.)

 

Add $350 for the upgrade co-pay for each direction. Now $1800. Add 25,000 miles for the actual upgrade in each direction. Assign an arbitrary value of 2c per mile. (One can argue this point ad nauseum; but they'd cost at least 2.5c to replace.) Now $2800. (Note you're getting back ca. 10,000 miles for the credit for the trip.)

 

And that $2800 does not include the upgrade on the shorthaul flight out of AGP, and of course it's contingent on there being upgrade inventory on the long-haul flights selected. As of today, there are business-class upgrade seats but no award inventory seats on AA the DFW-MAD flights for April 5/6, but lots of award inventory out of London (which as stated would require the cross-London shuffle.)

 

Just for a drill, I then had a look at purchased business class fares with the OP's desired route, and can see fares in the $2900-$3300 range all over the place. (I can't see the fares for a November return yet, the $3300 ones use a September return date, which will undoubtedly mean peak fares on the return; they should resume the $2800-$2900 levels once November 2012 is bookable. Hope that makes sense.)

 

Of course by buying a ticket you get business class the whole way, and you'd earn something closer to 15,000 miles, and maybe earn the OP elite frequent flyer status (thereby saving money in the long run on baggage fees, domestic upgrades, etc.)

 

By the same token, there ARE business class award seats available for 50,000 miles (one way) for April. For the return portion, since there are numerous award seats for the desired route for THIS November, there's no reason to believe they wouldn't be available for next November either.

 

Since the OP is already spending 50,000 miles per person for the two upgrades, then it means they'd only need another 50,000 miles to get straight award tickets in business class for the whole round trip. You can buy 50,000 miles from AA for around $1100*, i.e. the cost of the coach ticket, and that, too would put one in business class seats the whole way.

 

(*And AA has frequent sales on FF mile purchase, usually involving 20% to 33% bonuses, i.e. taking the cost of 50,000 miles down to the $800 range. The OP could redeem the 50K miles on hand for the AGP-DFW ticket, then wait for the sale to buy the 50K miles for the DFW-MAD flight when it opens.)

 

Hope this isn't too roundabout an idea.

[Globaliser]

Just for a drill, I then had a look at purchased business class fares with the OP's desired route, and can see fares in the $2900-$3300 range all over the place. (I can't see the fares for a November return yet, the $3300 ones use a September return date, which will undoubtedly mean peak fares on the return; they should resume the $2800-$2900 levels once November 2012 is bookable. Hope that makes sense.)

That's a very valuable chunk of information for the OP.

 

I have just one question: where are you seeing the $2,900 fares, and for which dates? A quick ITA search for an itinerary starting with AGP-DFW on 6 April simply returns non-seasonal fares starting in the $3,300-$3,500 range (depending on airline).

[Gardyloo]

That's a very valuable chunk of information for the OP.

 

I have just one question: where are you seeing the $2,900 fares, and for which dates? A quick ITA search for an itinerary starting with AGP-DFW on 6 April simply returns non-seasonal fares starting in the $3,300-$3,500 range (depending on airline).

Because the farthest out one can see in 2012 is early September (still high season) what I did was look at a comparable shoulder/off season itinerary for November 2011/March 2012; that's where I found the $2800 - $2900 fares. (Interestingly the BA and IB fares were identical, and both around $300 cheaper than the AA fare, although both IB and BA used codeshares on AA's DFW-MAD filghts.) Both were I-class business fares with 12 month lifespans. (I used ITA.)

[Globaliser]

Thanks! I still can't find them, but that sounds like there would be some hope for €2,800-ish fares.

 

Unfortunately, all I can see are those non-seasonal I class fares, which are obviously what the €3,300-ish fares are based on. Of course, these won't change just because of a change of travel date (so long as the fares remain valid - but fares can always be amended or withdrawn at any time).

[Fattony]

The term is not often used on public websites, but the "open jaw" concept remains firmly embedded in the fare rules which tell you what a fare can and can't be used for.

 

For example, AA's NKES2R fare for AGP-DFW-AGP on 6 April 2012 includes these rules:-

RULE APPLICATION AND OTHER CONDITIONS
  PUBLIC FARES
  APPLICATION
   AREA
    THESE FARES APPLY
     FROM SPAIN
     TO NORTH AMERICA.
   CLASS OF SERVICE
    THESE FARES APPLY FOR ECONOMY CLASS SERVICE.
   TYPES OF TRANSPORTATION
    FARES GOVERNED BY THIS RULE CAN BE USED TO CREATE
     ONE-WAY/ROUND-TRIP/CIRCLE-TRIP/OPEN-JAW JOURNEYS.

COMBINATIONS
  OPEN JAWS
    FARES MAY BE COMBINED ON A HALF ROUND TRIP BASIS
    -TO FORM SINGLE OR DOUBLE OPEN JAWS
     A MAXIMUM OF TWO INTERNATIONAL FARE COMPONENTS
     PERMITTED. MILEAGE OF THE OPEN SEGMENT MUST BE EQUAL/
     LESS THAN MILEAGE OF THE LONGEST FLOWN FARE
     COMPONENT.
    PROVIDED -
      WHEN THE OPEN SEGMENT OCCURS
      -WITHIN NORTH AMERICA OR WITHIN EUROPE
       COMBINATIONS ARE WITH ANY FARE FOR CARRIER AA/BA/
       IB IN ANY RULE IN TARIFF
       IPRA    - BETWEEN USA/CA-AREA 2/3 AND GUAM-AREA 2
       IPRAI   - BETWEEN THE USA/CANADA-AREA 2/3 VIA ATL
       IPRSAA2 - BETWEEN THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE-AREA 2
       VIA ATL.

I think the numbers above conclusively demonstrate that even one one-way fare is more expensive than an open-jaw/multi-city fare that is bookable now and (if booked) will then be fixed for the OP's actual itinerary, subject only to a change fee, the availability of an N class seat on her actual DFW-BCN date, and the ticket maximum validity issue.

 

Fair enough, but if open jaw is being used to mean the same thing as multi-city or multiple destination (which was not always the case) then I'd still suggest one of the latter be used, since that's what a user will find on airline Web sites, as well as sites such as Expedia and Kayak. Those who know the term open jaw from airline regs will certainly not be confused. Small point, indeed, but why not use the term a travler will find on sites they'll use for booking?

[Globaliser]

Those who know the term open jaw from airline regs will certainly not be confused. Small point, indeed, but why not use the term a travler will find on sites they'll use for booking?

Because multi-city bookings include more than open-jaw bookings. Many multi-city bookings will not be priced on an open-jaw basis. So it would be misleading to use "multi-city booking" as a synonym for "open-jaw booking".

 

If someone asks "How do I book an open jaw ticket", I will always suggest using the multi-city (or similar) option on a website. I don't see the difficulty with that.

[FlyerTalker]

Because multi-city bookings include more than open-jaw bookings. Many multi-city bookings will not be priced on an open-jaw basis. So it would be misleading to use "multi-city booking" as a synonym for "open-jaw booking".

This is similar to "direct" and "non-stop". Though many interchange the two, they are most assuredly not the same, just as "open jaw" is not the same as "multi-city".

 

In math terms (I think - it's been a few years), "non-stop" is a subset of "direct", just as "open jaw" is a subset of "multi-city".

 

Language does matter. And if people just assume that open-jaw pricing applies to all multi-city itineraries, there will be some very disappointed folk out there.