On QV, it is now being reflagged!

[LadyL1]

Today we have seen "Hamilton" on all the lifebelts that hang on Deck 3!

We have been told by the crew that the stern will be altered when we reach Venice.

[matdark]

Well I thought I'd still be able to see Southmapton on her stern one last time when we board on nov.8, apparently it's not gonna be the case...:(

[Salacia]

LadyL1, thanks for the update. What is the reaction (if any) on-board? S.

[southwestie]

On QM2 RIGHT NOW

No one is saying anything about the changes, so far everything is the same, but I will check every day

[pepperrn]

As for QM2, for those that care (I do, but some didn't), I think I saw that nothing will change until December 1st. A little while longer to wait, thank goodness, if the information I saw was correct.

[Salacia]

As for QM2, for those that care (I do, but some didn't), I think I saw that nothing will change until December 1st. A little while longer to wait, thank goodness, if the information I saw was correct.

 

Pepperrn, yes, according to the reports in the press that I have read, December 1 is the re-flagging date for QM2. However, I have been unable to find any official announcement from Cunard or Carnival Corp. Oddly, there was no notice of change in registry when I accessed Voyage Personalizer for the voyage I booked (and paid in full) prior to reflagging. Why Cunard thinks no mention of this change boggles the mind. It is a material deviation in the voyage contract to which I agreed, as did every other passenger to date.

 

Regards,

Salacia

[Alohaaa]

I agree with you S. patrons barley have had time to grasp the idea of a flag change and yet it is rapidly occurring. When I read the news I thought that I would be on the last 2012 WC; however that is not to be. DH and I both believe the reflagging post final payment is a breach of contract. I am saddened. I lifelong sought for adventure is tarnished. I can abide but the necessity debate; however the manner is less than the standards expected of Cunard.

 

Kit

[laktex]

This is from the Bermuda-online site. (Look at the dates)

 

""Cunard ships to be re-flagged in Bermuda

 

Instead of Southampton (England) on the ships' hulls Cunard vessels will show "Hamilton," Bermuda. Earlier, there had been speculation this would occur in either Malta (Valetta), from where many of the Cunard ships' crews come, also a major ships' registry like Bermuda, Bahamas, etc. or Bermuda. Being registered, or flagged, in the U.K. means that Cunard lost out on the lucrative business of weddings at sea. UK law, which governs until the change in registry the three Cunard ships, states that couples can only wed when the ship is in port and the service is conducted by a minister or other notary -– a less romantic proposition than exchanging vows in mid-ocean. But on ships registered in Bermuda or Malta, which include the fleets of Cunard's sister lines, Princess Cruises and P&O Cruises - all already Bermuda-flagged - couples can marry at a service officiated by the captain, in port or at sea. Weddings at sea are now big business. However, this business will no longer be denied to Cunard as it's fleet will soon transfer ships' registry from the U.K to Bermuda. Cunard options included simply keeping the ships registered in Southampton; creating one ‘wedding ship' with Bermudian (never "Bermudan") or Maltese registry; or changing the registration of all three of the line's ships. Cunard elected for the latter. Queen Elizabeth is on Bermuda’s books on October 24, 2011 followed by the Queen Victoria on October 27 and the Queen Mary 2 on December 1. This development brings Bermuda hundreds of thousands extra in annual fees, to a registry that already takes in about $3 million a year. However, in the UK there was huge disapproval in Southampton following the announcement in the UK. Cunard had been UK-registered for the last 171 years, but has said it will continue to use Southampton as its home port.

 

There was another reason for Cunard flagging its ships outside the UK, involving a change in European law. The enactment of Britain's Equality Act 2010 requires that staff from countries in the European Union must be paid wages equal to those of British citizens when working on British-registered ships. While many other lines use more crew from countries outside of Europe to save on operating costs, Cunard had been using mostly Europeans or Maltese in the dining rooms and bars. Now, Europeans and Maltese are likely to be replaced by others.""

[edgeoftheworld]

can they actually do the re-flagging & change of registry whilst passengers are on board?

 

whose laws apply for the remainder of the contracted passage?

[missfrankiecat]

can they actually do the re-flagging & change of registry whilst passengers are on board?

 

whose laws apply for the remainder of the contracted passage?

 

Bermudan law governs from the moment of registration. That doesn't change individual passengers contractual rights (where you can sue for breach of contract for eg) which have nothing to do with country of ship's registration.

[Alohaaa]

My head is still spinning. Will they change staff right away as well? What about all of the service charges we paid for in advance? Are there going to be weddings right in the middle of the cruise? Why would passengers not involved with the wedding welcome that disruption? How does that work, will Cunard reserve public areas for the wedding party at all passengers expense? Of course Cunard knew of this significant change some time ago and could have informed reserving passengers so we could make informed decisions as to weather to book or not. I felt a sense of safety going through the pirated waters of the word on an British flagged ship, that I will not feel on a Bermuda flagged ship. How deceiving!

 

Kit

[guernseyguy]

My head is still spinning. Will they change staff right away as well?

No, I doubt anyone will notice any difference in the service - they are doing this to keep the staff they currently have....

 

Are there going to be weddings right in the middle of the cruise? Why would passengers not involved with the wedding welcome that disruption?

 

Weddings will not start until after the World Cruises in 2012....I expect them to be so rare, given Cunard's demographic, that passengers might welcome seeing them! Cunard has always occasionally shut down some rooms for private functions.

 

 

I felt a sense of safety going through the pirated waters of the word on an British flagged ship, that I will not feel on a Bermuda flagged ship. How deceiving!Kit

 

Bermuda, as an Overseas Territory of Britain, enjoys exactly the same protection from (what's left) of the Royal Navy as a British flagged vessel...

[MrsNobby]

As far as I am aware the ships are changing their registry but the Officers are not recieving a labotomy at the same time. I am sure someone will correst me if I am wrong.

 

The Deck and Technical Officers are trained to the highest standards and work with the utmost professionalism at all times. Their qualifications are obtained and regulated by the British Department of Transport issued by the Marine and Coastguard Agency.

 

Just because the registry changes, the Officers' qualifications, training and professionalism does not.

 

Hamilton on the stern does not mean a ship is more or less safe than it was the day before the change. If you are really concerned about the safety of a ship then I suggest you enquire about the qualifications the Deck and Technical Officers hold. It is these people who will utimately ensure the safety of the souls on board and not who ever is Maitre D in the Grills or the bartender in the Commodore Club.

[edgeoftheworld]

Bermudan law governs from the moment of registration. That doesn't change individual passengers contractual rights (where you can sue for breach of contract for eg) which have nothing to do with country of ship's registration.

 

wonder if theyve told the passengers that the legal regime which now applies for the rest of their journey has changed?

 

 

presumably Bermudan law will now cover the crews interactions with passengers?

[fishywood]

I don't see what all the fuss is about "Bermudan Law." Nowhere in the Passage Contract is the country of registry mentioned; the country or countries in which the cruiseline conducts its principal business always prevails--this is what passengers agree to when they purchase their ticket. For US residents on any voyage which either begins or ends in the US, if one is either the victim or perpetrator of a crime, the FBI assumes jurisidiction; if the victim or perpetrator of a tort, it is settled in the US courts. Every cruiseline has language to this effect in the passage contract no matter if the ship is registered in Panama, Bahamas, Bermuda or Liberia. I can't imagine it would be any different for UK citizens.

[Norfolk Brit]

According to paragraph seven of this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/27/rebecca-coriam-family-plea there is the potential for a problem in the event of mysterious disappearance from a ship.

 

Mary

[guernseyguy]

Americans, however are to some extent protected as:

 

"US president Barack Obama last year signed the cruise vessel security and safety act that requires ships to report disappearances and crimes against US citizens to the FBI and US coastguard."

[LadyL1]

LadyL1, thanks for the update. What is the reaction (if any) on-board? S.

 

Most people on board have not noticed: certainly our dining companions had not until we mentioned it.

Yesterday a steel plate was welded over SOUTHAMPTON, with Hamilton now showing on the stern. No doubt today it will be painted today. I understand that the Red Ensign will still be flying.

However, all that really matters is that the service and ambience remains.

Goodbye from a damp and misty Venice!

[edgeoftheworld]

I don't see what all the fuss is about "Bermudan Law." Nowhere in the Passage Contract is the country of registry mentioned; the country or countries in which the cruiseline conducts its principal business always prevails--this is what passengers agree to when they purchase their ticket. For US residents on any voyage which either begins or ends in the US, if one is either the victim or perpetrator of a crime, the FBI assumes jurisidiction; if the victim or perpetrator of a tort, it is settled in the US courts. Every cruiseline has language to this effect in the passage contract no matter if the ship is registered in Panama, Bahamas, Bermuda or Liberia. I can't imagine it would be any different for UK citizens.

 

Americans, however are to some extent protected as:

"US president Barack Obama last year signed the cruise vessel security and safety act that requires ships to report disappearances and crimes against US citizens to the FBI and US coastguard."

 

 

http://seniortravel.about.com/od/cruises/f/What-Is-The-Cruise-Vessel-Security-And-Safety-Act-Of-2010.htm

Cruise Vessel Crime Reporting

Each ship must create and maintain a log of crime reports and track serious crimes (murder, suspicious death, missing person, kidnapping, assault with serious bodily injury, theft of items valued over $10,000, tampering with the ship or setting it on fire, sexual abuse or sexual abuse of a minor), thefts of items or money valued at over $1,000 and all other reported crimes. The statistics must be reported to the U. S. Department of Homeland Security for inclusion in a database that is accessible to the public.

If a serious crime takes place on the vessel, it must be reported as soon as possible to a field office of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) or to a legal attaché and reported in writing to the Department of Homeland Security.

 

> it says 'must be reported', it does not say 'FBI has jurisdiction'

 

 

http://www.cruiselawnews.com/2010/07/articles/crime/cruise-vessel-security-and-safety-act-finally-making-waves/

The Cruise Vessel Safety and Security Act will address that problem by requiring cruise lines to report crimes promptly to the FBI and to post a link on their Web sites to a Transportation Department website listing crimes that have occurred on cruise ships.

"This will be the first time in the history of the cruise industry when a cruise ship is required to report a crime in international waters," said James Walker, a maritime lawyer based in Miami. "The public can finally see the criminal database and determine which cruise ships have the highest crime rates."

 

> again, reported, not that the FBI has jurisdiction

 

 

 

http://people.howstuffworks.com/cruise-ship-law1.htm

Because maritime law is so difficult to clarify (in part because every country has its own version of it), most cases of cruise ship crime are decided on a case-by-case basis. Law on a cruise ship (or any other ship) starts with the flag the ship is flying under. A ship flies the flag of the country where it's registered, and, in general, the laws onboard a ship are the laws of that country. However, when figuring out which laws apply on a sea vessel, territory also must be taken into consideration. Legal jurisdiction on the sea goes something like this [source: Justia]:

 

•A country's internal waters -- areas like bays and ports -- are a part of that country. So when a ship is docked at the Port of Miami, all U.S. (and Florida) laws apply to the ship, its passengers and its crew.

 

•Almost all of a nation's laws also apply in its territorial waters which extend up to 12 miles from its coastline (we'll look at an exception on the next page). A ship departing from a U.S. port cannot open gambling activities until it's 12 miles out, since gambling is illegal in most parts of the United States.

 

•A nation has limited jurisdiction in its contiguous zone -- the area 12 miles to 24 miles from its coast. A country has certain rights within that zone, such as patrolling its borders. For instance, within 24 miles of the U.S. coast, the U.S. Coast Guard is allowed to board any ship suspected of drug smuggling, regardless of which flag it's flying under.

 

•Once a ship is 24 miles from any coastline, it's on the high seas (or international waters). With the exception of certain rights within the contiguous zone, the law of that ship is the law of the country whose flag it's flying. So, a Liberia-registered cruise ship that's 25 miles off the coast of California isn't subject to U.S. law; it's subject to Liberian law.

 

 

 

http://www.cruiselawnews.com/2011/10/articles/flags-of-convenience-1/cunard-drops-union-jack-to-avoid-british-labor-laws/

For passengers or crewmembers who are victimized by a shipboard crime, Bermuda will have jurisdiction to investigate and prosecute crimes.

[Topsham]

Most people on board have not noticed: certainly our dining companions had not until we mentioned it.

Yesterday a steel plate was welded over SOUTHAMPTON, with Hamilton now showing on the stern. No doubt today it will be painted today. I understand that the Red Ensign will still be flying.

However, all that really matters is that the service and ambience remains.

Goodbye from a damp and misty Venice!

 

 

Some passengers who are on board QUEEN ELIZABETH right now are not paying attention!!!!

 

The change in registration from Southampton to Hamilton took place in Southampton on the 23rd. When we docked in Amsterday on Monday there were shipyard workers from Amsterdam Drydock in attendance welding a plate with the new letters HAMILTON over the old port name SOUTHAMPTON. It took that day and next day to complete the welding and paint the plate with primer etc. Yesterday in Zeebrugge t federal grey was applied and the letters painted white.

 

 

The poster of the original messaage and the one above not paying attention necause the ship has not flying the red ensign at all!!!!! The QUEEN ELIZABETH is flying a BLUE ensign. Captaain Wells is aan officer in the Royal Naval Reserve.

 

Nothing has changed on board at all. I have not even heard the ssubject being discussed by anyone... well certainly not in Queen;s Grill anyway.

 

Meanwhile everything is as it should be... PERFECT!!!!~

 

Stephen

[guernseyguy]

Queen Victoria's old call sign GBQV has fallen silent.....say hello tp ZCEF3......

[shinyshoes]

Queen Victoria's old call sign GBQV has fallen silent.....say hello tp ZCEF3......

 

Doesn't exactly trip lightly off the key does it? Still, one good thing about the reflagging kerfuffle it's definitely taken the focus off Tipping, Smoking & Dressing.

Shiny

ps. The new Callsign actually does sound a bit better in the r/t version at least to my ear and it won't be going out in w/t will it?

 

Zulu Charlie Echo Foxtrot Three versus Golf Bravo Quebec Victor. Yeah definitely better!

[edgeoftheworld]

Doesn't exactly trip lightly off the key does it? Still, one good thing about the reflagging kerfuffle it's definitely taken the focus off Tipping, Smoking & Dressing.

Shiny

ps. The new Callsign actually does sound a bit better in the r/t version at least to my ear and it won't be going out in w/t will it?

 

Zulu Charlie Echo Foxtrot Three versus Golf Bravo Quebec Victor. Yeah definitely better!

 

i havnt a clue about callsigns, but;

GBQV seems pretty easy shorthand for a GB flagged ship named Queen Victoria

strangely enough the code 'ZC' isnt bermudan, its allocated to the UK

 

what does EF3 mean?

[Topsham]

i havnt a clue about callsigns, but;

GBQV seems pretty easy shorthand for a GB flagged ship named Queen Victoria

strangely enough the code 'ZC' isnt bermudan, its allocated to the UK

 

what does EF3 mean?

 

 

 

As I mentioned a few days ago... all callsigns for British Registered ships are issued by the UK. A list of calls signs starting with the letter Z has been allocated to the Bermuda Registry. From that list Cunard were able to pick one that they like. If aat a later date they wish to chaange it they may but they will have to aapply to the UK Govt through the Bermuda registry of Shipping but it will still have to start with letter Z. They may well ask for ZGBSS or ZGBTT or ZGBQV..... who knows.

 

Stephen

[SailorManBilly]

As I mentioned a few days ago... all callsigns for British Registered ships are issued by the UK. A list of calls signs starting with the letter Z has been allocated to the Bermuda Registry. From that list Cunard were able to pick one that they like. If aat a later date they wish to chaange it they may but they will have to aapply to the UK Govt through the Bermuda registry of Shipping but it will still have to start with letter Z. They may well ask for ZGBSS or ZGBTT or ZGBQV..... who knows.

 

Stephen

 

I guess I have a couple of responses to this: first off, I have to admit that never once on all of my Cunard voyages have I, as a passenger, even been aware of hearing the call signs of the ship I was on. I was on The Queen Mary 2, or The Queen Elizabeth, and either referred to them as such, or shortened it to "QM2" or "QE". So as far as I'm concerned, the actual call sign could have been "Eat My Wake" and it wouldn't have affected me as a passenger.

 

And the other thing that strikes me as we hear from the actual experts and those who know high ranking crew and officers (and not the self-appointed "I-read-message-boards-so-I-must-know-everything" "experts"), is that even with a Bermuda registry, it's still essentially a British ship under the British "umbrella", for lack of a better term.

 

I see that as being far different than the ships being registered in a Dutch, or French, or American Colony. Or being taken over by Middle Eastern or Far East company that does business in the U.K.

 

I understand there's a sentimental aspect of this whole thing, but it's unfortunately the cost of doing business in this world economy. I mean, how many of you out there are fans of "Hollywood" movies? At the end of the day, most "Hollywood" films are shot and produced in states and countries that are more economically feasible, but are still called "Hollywood" films. When, in fact, they technically should be called Canadian or Romanian or Brazilian films because thats where most of them get made. But because one Warner Brothers exective is sitting in Los Angeles, they remain "Hollywood" films. And the truth is, if some of the better films were actually SHOT in Hollywood, massive numbers of corners would be cut because of the taxes and costs of filming in California.

 

Maybe we all need to look at the Cunard registry change in the same light. If the U.K. Laws and rules make it harder for Cunard to continue to turn a profit, and yet still remain registered there, then where do those costs go to? US!! The passengers!! In either cuts from what we expect of service, or in HUGE fare hikes, making it less possible for the majority of Cunard fans to keep traveling frequently.

 

I know it's a sentimental issue and one of emotion, but Bermuda is still a British colony (or whatever the technical word is)... So in my view, the sky really isn't falling, Henny Penny...