Costa Concordia SINKING

[Zeta3]

One thing to keep in mind Julie, is that cruise ship crews are on constant rotation. People come and go all the time. They come from other ships, they come from being home after contract, and new people come. On any cruise ship in any line you have this rotation.

 

There is, or should be, constant training with crews - regardless of where the ship is registered, any of the major cruise lines take this very seriously. I would not venture to speak for Costa, but there is a phenomena occurring in the industry at the moment, partly due to the increase in these huge mega ships, but there is such a demand for cruise ship staff that many of the staffing agencies can't keep up and experienced crew is getting thinner and thinner throughout the cruise lines as more and bigger ships are introduced.

 

In my opinion, and it is just opinion, it is highly possible that the ratio of experienced crew to new crew, to crew that has only been on board for a month or so is getting stretched to the point where an emergency of this magnitude produced problems.

 

One report I heard on German TV, was that a large portion of the staff could not speak Italian, German or French (just their own language and English) and that also hindered some of the communication. That is media speculation and the speculation of one of the interviewed Germans. I was not there.

 

That was exactly my thought high percentage of newer/less experienced crew could have made things at least appear more disorganized. How scary it must be to be the new crew member who is suddenly facing an emergency such as this and expected to take charge.

[CruiseBoyzGermany]

Well, I decided to put on my Internet Investigator Hat to look into the whole "where did she hit" question.

 

The idea that the boat went between those two large rocks just south of the port seemed a bit silly to me. I couldn't imagine anyone even considering doing that.

 

So I found the GPS path someone has already posted to CC. Consider the following path:

 

 

...so we see that the ship comes in towards the island to do its little fly-by, then turns to the right to run nearly parallel to the shore. At no time does it ever come close to those two rocks. There is, however, a gap in the data points - GPS data seems to be missing from the point where they actually turned and where the last few points were where it came to rest.

 

I also found this video which maps out the timestamps and which has better detail of the coastline.

 

So it seems that the ship continued past the port and got a little too close to the island, sharply veered off to the right, then turned around to come back to the coastline and fell over where she now lays. The point where she veered off is very close to where she now lays, as well.

 

So I looked at this area closely in Google Maps, and you can make out something under the water very close to where the sudden turn occured. To me it looks like some rocks very close to the surface. So perhaps this is a case of them not turning soon enough - they begin to turn away from the island but are closing in on that submerged rock. The ship continues turning, but given the way ships turn (not like a car but more like a sideways slide), the side of the ship collides with this submerged rock. They continue out a ways, but as things start looking bad they turn around and end up where the ship now lays.

 

Just a theory but it kind of makes sense to me. Moreso than the 'threading the needle' theory with those two other large rocks. What do you think?

 

German television just did an interview with an Italian Coast Guard captain that lives on Gigli. He took them to the rock formations that the ship supposedly hit. The rock formation, including the broken part, were clearly sticking out of the water: it was not some sinister underwater formation. He also said, some cruise ships had lately taken the Eastern route through this natural protective area in order to show a scenic view. The normal route is to the West.

 

The other thing they just showed, was another interview with a German couple who said that the crew in the area of the ship they were in had no idea what to do, not even how to operate the lifeboats and their video clearly showed a passenger coming forward to explain how to work them.

 

Not good for Costa.

[cubella59]

Well, I spoke at length to our servers, bus boys, waiters/waitresses, cabin stewards..etc.

 

On Costa, they make $250 per week for a 7 day/12-14 hr day. Peanuts really. They get paid in cash. Their contracts range from 4-10 months during which time they live on the ship exclusively. All of them lost every last dollar they had saved. I would hope many of them wire money back home when they get to port, but I would imagine many keep it on them at all times to prevent theft as they are either 2 or 4 to a cabin for the most part. If you're not of EEU nationality, you get paid in dollars, those from EEU get paid in Euros. So you could have a French waiter alongside a Phillipine waiter doing the same job yet making 30% more.

 

Lastly, unless a spcific dept gets the highest cust satisfaction possible (5), they will only get a % of the $250; I.E if the average score for the cabin stewards on the cruise was 4.8, they make $225 vs $250 (although I don't know the exact %. Seems criminal to me. That goes accross the board for every department, beverage, food..etc. Of course this is all exclusive of tips which may add up to another $150 per week.

 

 

A week and a half ago, a buss boy on the Conquest who told me he started only 2 months before told me that he made $1200 take home every two weeks for a 50hr work week, and didn't have to pay for room/board or food while on board the ship... I'm not sure where you heard they are making only "a few thousand dollars" a year but if my math adds up correctly, that's a decent wage for a buss boy. Hell, the buss boys here in New Orleans don't make half that and still have to pay for their own room/food.

[5326jan]

Does anyone have any idea how long this takes? I know it's computerized, but surely it's a vast amount of information that can't be instantly presented. Does anyone have any idea on a timeline for this?

 

Hi OA, I wasn't able to find the data for ships, but for planes it says it can take "days" to analyze. I imagine it will be a couple of weeks before everything can be analyzed, but at least then it will be based on actual evidence rather than supposition. :)

[CruiseBoyzGermany]

I was speaking to someone here who was a former cargo ship Captain, and here's how he translated/interpreted the Italian Law (he speaks and reads fluent italian)..

 

The Captain, or if incapacitated the senior deck officer, is to remain on board until it is reasonably certain that all souls aboard have been evacuated or otherwise accounted for, unless ordered to leave by rescue personnel.

 

IF he left while the evacuation was still ongoing (which speaks to the first part) and IF the Coast Guard ordered him back and he refused (which speaks to the second), he can and should be charged as he was. There's not enough information other than hearsay to say what the true situation is but if a Coast Guard Cmdr. is making public statements, I am inclined to think there is legal jeopardy here.

 

Where this gets interesting is Costa's liability for the Captain's actions (legally only, not a public relations standpoint)

. Do we have anyone with experience in Italian civil and criminal liability laws? I can take a good shot from US side, but I don't know how similar they are.

 

I have been in contact with my friends in Rome who are in attorneys. They said "On the face of it, especially after being told to go back to the ship and refusing, this man will face jail time" It is also only their opinion. They are not maritime lawyers. They also pointed out that with over 1000 Italians on board, the likelihood of many passengers being lawyers and officials is high. There will be a lot of fighting and a lot of maneuvering... no matter what happens to Costa the company, the Captain appears to be toast.

[Thoie]

The implication was not his and an honest mariner knows why cruise ships register outside the US.

 

And an honest mariner knows that there is a difference between a flying a flag of convenience, and just not happening to come from the US. Using the passport example, I hold the passport of the neutral country where I was born and live. I'm not deliberately trying to evade anything by not carrying a US passport. This is different from a US passport holder going out of their way to obtain a passport from a neutral country.

 

It was a conversation starter, and a small group banded together and put words in his mouth. Sorry. I do not wish to argue with you or to make you feel bad, but I think the responses to his comment were WAY HARSH and a certain poster here has even violated TOS in attacking him. It is just beyond what Cruise Critic is supposed to be about... or so I thought.

It was an inappropriate conversation starter in this context. The Italian flag did not cause either the accident or the perceived evacuation difficulties. The ship is out of Genoa, which is where the forerunner of the company was originally founded over 100 years ago. I agree that some replies were overly harsh, but I still maintain it was a disgraceful statement.

[ObscureAllure]

Well, I spoke at length to our servers, bus boys, waiters/waitresses, cabin stewards..etc.

 

On Costa, they make $250 per week for a 7 day/12-14 hr day. Peanuts really. They get paid in cash. Their contracts range from 4-10 months during which time they live on the ship exclusively. All of them lost every last dollar they had saved. I would hope many of them wire money back home when they get to port, but I would imagine many keep it on them at all times to prevent theft as they are either 2 or 4 to a cabin for the most part. If you're not of EEU nationality, you get paid in dollars, those from EEU get paid in Euros. So you could have a French waiter alongside a Phillipine waiter doing the same job yet making 30% more.

 

Lastly, unless a spcific dept gets the highest cust satisfaction possible (5), they will only get a % of the $250; I.E if the average score for the cabin stewards on the cruise was 4.8, they make $225 vs $250 (although I don't know the exact %. Seems criminal to me. That goes accross the board for every department, beverage, food..etc. Of course this is all exclusive of tips which may add up to another $150 per week.

That's very similar to what our bussboy told us. The $1200 every two weeks was including his tips and gratuities. (Don't know about Costa, but on the Carnival ships up until my last cruise we always get white envolopes to tip them the last night, and then this last time we didn't get any in our room for what ever reason so we went to the desk and got them... Every couple at our table tipped him no less than $10 a piece (we were traveling together) so that's $30 from our table at least and he had about 6-8 tables so I was guessing about half of that $600 weekly is tips and about half salary which is very similar to the $250 you just said.)

 

We didn't ask anyone else what they made, but I would assme other positions or people who have been there longer make more maybe?

 

Either way, while it's more than buss boys make by double here in New Orleans... Buss boys here in New Orleans don't do everything that buss boys on a cruiseship do and work less hours. My buss boy at a local restaurant would never have to lead people on to a lifeboat for example. I think for the amount of work they do and the responsibility they have they should make more, but I also know many buss boys on shore who make less, so.. *shrug* I dunno what I think lol

[cubella59]

That. Then there's all the smaller ports like Savona, Palermo, Sardinia that count on the revenues the cruise passengers bring to keep the bars, restaurants, really the entire service industry that serves the passengers afloat.

That is another thing to think about. Many might choose not to return to a cruise ship for obvious reasons, but even those that do... I can't imagine they'll have a new ship for them to be on next week. So many people were affected in so many ways. :( Hopefully Costa can find room for them on another vessel or even Carnival could help out with that.

[caribill]

 

 

Who was the God-Mother of this wrecked, twisted ,ripped, and sunken COSTA Ship?

 

 

 

Czech supermodel Eva Herzigova

[ObscureAllure]

Hi OA, I wasn't able to find the data for ships, but for planes it says it can take "days" to analyze. I imagine it will be a couple of weeks before everything can be analyzed, but at least then it will be based on actual evidence rather than supposition. :)

Thanks! :)

[CruiseBoyzGermany]

Well, I spoke at length to our servers, bus boys, waiters/waitresses, cabin stewards..etc.

 

On Costa, they make $250 per week for a 7 day/12-14 hr day. Peanuts really. They get paid in cash. Their contracts range from 4-10 months during which time they live on the ship exclusively. All of them lost every last dollar they had saved. I would hope many of them wire money back home when they get to port, but I would imagine many keep it on them at all times to prevent theft as they are either 2 or 4 to a cabin for the most part. If you're not of EEU nationality, you get paid in dollars, those from EEU get paid in Euros. So you could have a French waiter alongside a Phillipine waiter doing the same job yet making 30% more.

 

Lastly, unless a spcific dept gets the highest cust satisfaction possible (5), they will only get a % of the $250; I.E if the average score for the cabin stewards on the cruise was 4.8, they make $225 vs $250 (although I don't know the exact %. Seems criminal to me. That goes accross the board for every department, beverage, food..etc. Of course this is all exclusive of tips which may add up to another $150 per week.

 

A very realistic account.

 

One must also remember that money gets spent in the crew lounge.

 

Here in Warnemünde, when the crew gets a chance to get off the ship they flock to the local grocery stores to get things to bring home (chocolate by the cases) as well as food that helps them with their homesickness. We are always amazed at how the store looks after they have come in. It happens like a hive of bees, in the sense that everyone comes into the store with a goal: one group gets drinks, one group gets chocolates and candies, one group gets pharmaceuticals and hygienic items. We thought about starting a delivery service to the ships!

 

 

Depending on the department, these folks only get a chance to go on land every 2 weeks or so; especially restaurant and stewards: this is done when they could be sleeping. The dining attendants mornings start at 5am and last until breakfast is over, then they get a few hours off, then comes lunch, then an hour or two break, then dinner and side duties. They are happy to be in bed by 1am. There are rotations, but it is a tough, tough contract. Most work 10-12 hours per day 7 days per week for their whole contract.

 

Add emergency trainings into this. It is not an easy life by any account.

[littlesteelo]

BBC News have just reported Costa have said the Captain ''committed errors'' which had ''serious consequences'', and also ignored the lines emergency procedures.

 

I think he just got too close to the island for a little sail-by, and likely struck the rocks near where she lies now. That corresponds to the sharp starboard turn shown on the AIS tracking, and then did a 180 to try and get back into the harbour. This caused the water to shift inside the ship, causing it to capsize in the position it's in now.

[CruiseAdict218]

That. Then there's all the smaller ports like Savona, Palermo, Sardinia that count on the revenues the cruise passengers bring to keep the bars, restaurants, really the entire service industry that serves the passengers afloat.

 

Just curious does the Fascinosa have her schdule out? If not they can easily re-arrange the fleet if needed

[Bobal]

BBC News have just reported Costa have said the Captain ''committed errors'' which had ''serious consequences'', and also ignored the lines emergency procedures.

 

Sky News reporting the same http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16149523

[CruiseBoyzGermany]

Lots of people on these boards, myself included, are interested not just in cruising but the ships themselves. I'm curious as to what will happen to the ship as well. I think it's going to be a monumental effort no matter what they have to do - be it attempts to re-float it or if they chop it up in place.

 

Not sure if this has been reported in your news area or not, but on German television they have stated several times that the ship is lying in an environmentally sensitive and protected area. That will surely complicated its removal if true.

[Loonbeam]

The following is a thought I just had after my discussion with the Captain above (and I will follow up with him)

 

I understand the law about the captain being on board and the spirit in which it was written, but serious question - In a situation like the Concordia, what is the Captain actually supposed to do on board at all times. I can easily see at a certain point where the Captain may be of more use ashore, directing the disposition of passengers once the majority are off for example. Is there any clause in the law that would allow this?

 

I'm not trying to defend (or even apply this directly) to the Concordia's captain who based on accounts violated the letter of the law AND the intent as well as other problems (Costa is basically blaming him in their latest statement - from MSNBC - "While the investigation is ongoing, preliminary indications are that there may have been significant human error on the part of the ship's master, Captain Francesco Schettino, which resulted in these grave consequences") but it is something that makes me think...

[PelicanBill]

Please stand down and stop the posting about each other, or the Mods are going to lock this thread and any others out of control.

 

I got a very rude response to my last post, and both my abacus and I ignored it. Turns out my post was exactly what this whole thing is about - why the ship turned 20 degrees to port toward Giglio... now we all know it was intentional to "buzz the coast" of this island. I find that arrogant, reckless and negligent and I hope all you do too. After my paltry 5 cruises, I still want to cruise again, and I hope all cruise Captains will stop taking any risk with navigation.

 

As for emergency operations - I happen to have some expertise in emergency response for both a large corporation and small towns. As we know, the ship issued no mayday and the alarm was not raised until the evacuation was in progress with the aid of local fireman and nearby boats. It happened at 10pm at night. In such a case it is amazing that helicopters were onsite as fast as they were, and with only a ferry to the island I cannot imaging how hard it is to get emergency operations people to the site in an organized manner... emergency personnel could not have "made there way on their own!" Emergency response usually starts with local fire and police... it is hours until official emergency management can activate and getting to a remote location add more time!

 

The manifest issue is also never perfect - as we are learning, such as the US believing they had 126 and all accounted for. Now it's less that 126 and 2 not accounted for. Just like the ship, the response is chaotic and hard to decide who is in charge and who has the right data. Meanwhile, survivors are at local schools, homes, and enroute to hotels and airports... very hard to recount them...

[EVALUATOR]

It is not the small town that I would expect to have prepared for an event like this but the regional authorities. One of the primary jobs of your EOC people is to plan for potential emergencies. When an emergency hits you grab the plan that most closely fits the current situation and begin working it and making the necessary modifications 'in stride.' In that area of the world I would expect them to have plans for responding to maritime disasters. And one of the basic rules is that positive control is maintained of all refugees. The people from the ship should have been taken from the island to a refugee collection center, processed and only then given transportation out of the area. In addition the EOC should have had lists of all emergency assets availible in the area and their capabilities.

 

The next issue I saw in the news reports is that emergency personnel and volunteers were allowed to 'self dispatch' to the site of the emergency. As a result the people trying to manage the situation did not know who was on site, what their capabilities were, and what they were doing. And to make things worse - they lost accountability of the rescue personnel as well. If a boat responding to the accident itself had an accident and was unable to communicate their situation - nobody would know they were missing for up to several days.

 

In the US we have developed what is known as the 'Incident Command System' and these are the 'lessons learned' from past incidents that have been integrated into US disaster-response doctrine.

 

BTW - want to make a guess as to what I am studying for my Master's degree?

 

Should of, should of, should of. I agree.

 

Even in the U.S. when a hurricane hits, look at the extreme prior planning and terrible immediate response. Often it is too much "leadership" and poor communication with those at the scene.

 

Bottom line is, most of those that responded were the closest to the site. If you are pulling people out of the water, do you wait for a command center to be set up to process "refugees", or drop the able bodied off at the nearest shore and go back for more "people".

 

The incident command system, and first responder system is a great idea. But it is only part of an emergency response.

 

Part of your masters study will include learning to use those that just show up to help the best you can.

 

Delegation of authority is letting others do what they can do. Leadership is letting others do what they can and doing the things you can that others cannot. Government is usually trying to do both and accomplishing neither.

[cubella59]

I think that is legit. Video is really dark and grainy, but I think it's the Budapest Piano Bar.

 

Another new video - this one from Fox news. Not sure if this one is legit or not as it's fairly generic but just in case I'll post it.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_IBnrLQf68

[ObscureAllure]

This guy https://twitter.com/#!/Puljac is tweeting his pictures from on board. Scarey but interesting. It looks like they lost power for at least a while.

[OneOneNiner]

 

Can you provide links... I never did find "the whole story" written down anywhere... was it even publicized? Feels like it was forgotten to easily...

 

thnx

 

Search the web for John Healds blog. He is the senior CD with Carnival and was the CD on that cruise. On his blog search for "smoke on the water".

[ObscureAllure]

https://twitter.com/#!/Puljac/status/158623386178822144/photo/1

 

 

This one makes me so sad... the people on the left sitting with no life jackets... look in the man's arms. That's an infant. :(

[OneOneNiner]

According to this ship tracking link - at about the time of the grounding every other ship in the area suddenly changed course and started heading for the Concordia. This indicates that they recieved some sort of distress call.

 

http://www.shipcruise.org/cruise-articles/435-costa-concordia-accident

Suddenly... yes... after an hour into the incident. The mayday call was made an hour after the accident...

[cruiserfanfromct]

FWIW - Here is a body language analysis of Captain Francesco Schettino's recent interview to the media.

[kirsty_r]

Suddenly... yes... after an hour into the incident. The mayday call was made an hour after the accident...

no doubt the captain will say thats an electrical fault?? Presumably if so a distress flare, or blaring horns or whatever could have been done? (and the ship looked lit up to me perched on those rocks!) Serious errors made!