Costa Concordia SINKING

[EVALUATOR]

Does any know, from marine or navy experience or education, etc, how long the Concordia would have taken to finally sink if in open water and not beached?

 

I see many opinions on what happened in the actual events, but I think many would like to know how long would it take a super cruiseliner of this kind to finally sink after the terminal gash hole created in this case, assuming it was not beached in this case.

 

If I am taking another cruise, I want to know how much time there may be to get the heck off of such a stricken ship before it sinks below. I want to be able to make some good judgments on the best way to cooperate and get into a boat, or rath, or even jump, if God be it, it comes to such a striken vessal.

 

It seems to me that this ship was going to the bottom in maybe another hour or less, but for being beached.

 

Any experts here that can answer that question for us given what we know of the gash/hole configuration in this case?

 

I believe current designs are for staying afloat for not less than 3 hours.

 

30 minutes from abandon to all off.

Under 60 minutes including mustering.

[Nitemare]

Some credit needs to go to the pilot for that parking job.

 

Like, about 100%.

[Milaandra]

If no order has come down from the Captain to abandon ship, the crew will hold passengers on the ship.

 

Which is the right thing to do. Only the bridge knows when it is safe to start lowering the lifeboats. (right?)

[Aplmac]

Does any know, from marine or navy experience or education, etc,

how long the Concordia would have taken to finally sink

if in open water and not beached?

History teaches us that the Lusitania took just 18 mins. to sink! :eek:

 

It also teaches us that Titanic took 2 hrs. and 40 mins. to sink

however...

Lusitania was struck by a torpedo that ripped into her bowels big time

whereas Titanic tore open her hull on an iceberg

(probably similar in character to the Concordia damage we see today?)

 

 

In essence, it all depends on the nature of the damage

and on the crew's handling of the Damage Control (something the U.S.Navy is v.good at!)

i.e. if compartmentalized flood control doors can be shut in a timely manner etc.

 

I doubt there is a scientific equation worked out for rate-of-sinking.

.

[Milaandra]

Agreed. Earlier, someone mentioned an idea to automatically launch lifeboats if a ship is listed in a certain amount of degrees. I don't think this would work if the ship is still in motion or the captain (or whoever in command) still has intention of moving the ship. The order to abandon ship has to come from the bridge.

 

Oz's idea of the lifeboat modifications still sound like the best idea!

 

Besides, from what we have heard and seen in amateur video, the ship was almost immediately at that problematic 20 degree list...sooner than it took to check the engine room and determine the extent of the damage.

[EVALUATOR]

Oz's idea of the lifeboat modifications still sound like the best idea!

 

Besides, from what we have heard and seen in amateur video, the ship was almost immediately at that problematic 20 degree list...sooner than it took to check the engine room and determine the extent of the damage.

 

The damage to the engine room and flooding should have been known less than a minute after hitting the rocks. And that is from the engine room, engine control room, or the bridge.

[SomeBeach]

Which is the right thing to do. Only the bridge knows when it is safe to start lowering the lifeboats. (right?)

 

In a perfect world that is what we were led to believe.

I will not let one rogue Captain stop me from cruising.

I think one of the biggests issues the cruise lines will have is convincing people that their Captain's are well trained and can be trusted. This will be important if they wish to get new cruisers on a ship. Many that have never cruised or have one cruise under their belt may decide to stay away from cruising as a future vacation plan.

[EVALUATOR]

Here is a photo of the camera shots from the RCI Monarch of the Seas. They are of the engine room, as seen on the monitors in the adjacent engine control room. These same camera shots are viewable from the bridge. I chose the Monarch shots because that ship is about 15 years older than the Concordia.

 

 

 

Here is a bank of monitors showing 9 monitors, 4 separate cameras on each monitor. They are showing engine room, elevators, laundry area, smokestacks, and a variety of other areas.

 

[EVALUATOR]

On a newer ship, from the bridge, watertight door controls on a newer ship. All can be controlled individually, or all at once with the flick of 1 switch.

 

[Milaandra]

I'm not positive but I believe some of the requirements are as follows...

 

 

• Able to launch and tow at 5 knots smooth sea.
  
• Launchable at 20 degree list (side to side )and 10 degree trim (front to rear).

  
  

  Where did you get that from? I'm curious because the Concordia was unable to launch many of its lifeboats even though they were at a 20 degree list at that point. Right from the beginning they had people get back off to find a different lifeboat.

   

  I found another source that said that lifeboats need to be able to be launched when the ship is travelling at 5 knots or less in a smooth sea.

   

  Now I don't know what to think!

[Feelin' Nauti']

It depends. Not in the US. Italy actually has some of the toughest laws about that, but no where are they required to go down with the ship. It's a week later and not everyone has been found yet. He'd still be there.

 

It will be up to the courts to decide, but it isn't quite as cut and dried as you would think.,

The rule of Maritime Law is outlined in The Merchant Marines Officer's Handbook that lists the duties of the ship's master are:

1. The last man to leave the vessel;

2. Bound to use all reasonable efforts to save everything possible (ship and cargo), through aid of salvage, if necessary;

3. Responsible for return of the crew;

4. Responsible for communicating promptly with owners and underwriters; and

5. In charge until lawfully suspended.

 

 

 

 

Every single crew member, from the Captain to the stewards, has a designated role in an emergency on a cruise ship. Regular drills ensure everyone knows what to do.

 

 

 

 

Interesting read ~

 

 

http://www.law.washington.edu/Directory/docs/Allen/Publications/Article_1994_CaptainsDutySinkingShipTake2.pdf

[Milaandra]

The damage to the engine room and flooding should have been known less than a minute after hitting the rocks. And that is from the engine room, engine control room, or the bridge.

 

Sorry, I was using the story about the crewman who said he went down to check the engine rooms and complained that the captain didn't respond when he told him...I should know better than to assume something is true.

 

Either way, there are multiple accounts that there was an immediate list, and I saw a video of someone standing in a cabin level corridor who was leaning to stay upright. Some of the reports said 20 degrees right away.

[NormanW]

Norman, sometimes tugs are required to stand by, even with ships with azimuthing drives. but I don't believe that they have to be paid unless actually brought into use.

 

The last time I remember that tugs were used when I was aboard was on the Mariner of the Seas, which uses azipods, but we were in an extremily tight channel, and with bow thrusters running at full power, and azipods almost in reverse, we still needed a tug to help with the swing.

 

Rick

 

Yes of course they do and often one can see them even in seemingly unchallenging conditions. It's always better to be safe than sorry. What may seem to be a very minor bump can actually be quite destructive to vessel and pier alike. ;)

 

Anyone recall a few years ago when M/S Norwegian Spirit came in a little too hot on the turn to dock and the bow contacted the pier? I would not have wanted to be standing on that parking lot at the time. (but if it were happening I would just probably stare just like if I see a tornado...it's hard to run away from stuff like that!)

 

Cheers,

 

Norman

[jopocop]

Yes, these look like very good observations. Only God knows what the longevity of floating in that condition would be before it sunk fully below the surface.

 

When I see that major gapping gash, super wide and long, it seems that so much water was percolating up and up to new new level above.

 

So far I have not been able to read any reports about passengers or crew saying their cabins or areas below were flooded already. Yet, still, maybe that was in progress and we just have not yet heard the story come out from the survivors.

 

If they were impaired with electrical outages, then, one has to wonder if any pumps were malfunctioning and thus not useable at all. Yet, how can pumps handle this massive hole anyway?

 

We know that the ship took an hour or more from the hole/gash incident to becoming beached, and so, it is rather miraculous that the ship did not sink sooner given that hole and its size and location.

 

Another issue, with these ships being so top heavy, it just tilts over on its side, maybe taking only minutes for that to happen, so that water comes into the ship from below and above, increasing the sinking effect.

 

So, that is another consideration, that the ship did not totally list sideways while in deeper water and hence, sink from both actions, from below and above, filling up the ship in all directions.

 

Obviously, it was a miracle that such a horrible disaster did not play out as we would all be watching a much different story today.

[deckofficer]

And one shot from a vessel nobody would want to cruise on, it shows watertight door status, fire alarm status, and the lower main board are tanks with pump control to keep vessel level.

 

[jopocop]

Another issue for the Cruise Industry to deal with is having real time live monitoring of the bridge from a command center. With current technology, a home base command center watches the bridge and all of the controls and discussions and stats and readings. They watch the TV monitors on the ship, and the TV camera pointing out to sea.

 

Had there been a command center real time monitoring of this ship, then, the home base command center issues warnings to the bridge about dangers and inappropriate headings, or speeds, and things of that sort.

 

Now that cruise ships are 4000 people and going higher by design, then, it makes more economic scale of sense to set up 24-7 live monitoring of the ship and using all of the available current technology for the welfare of the ship and passengers.

 

Even the idea of a black box is antiquated, on planes and ships, since, all of those data entries can be sent live to a command center for storage.

 

Each plane in the sky can send the same data to a control tower or company command center that is being sent to a so called black box.

 

Sure, keep the black boxes, but, also have live real time transmission of data to the command center.

 

The bottom line, the cruise industry really need to catch up with technology and think of more ways to prevent a disaster of this type and others that are within the realm of human imagination and vision.

[EVALUATOR]

Sorry, I was using the story about the crewman who said he went down to check the engine rooms and complained that the captain didn't respond when he told him...I should know better than to assume something is true.

 

Either way, there are multiple accounts that there was an immediate list, and I saw a video of someone standing in a cabin level corridor who was leaning to stay upright. Some of the reports said 20 degrees right away.

 

I think it is interesting as to the 20 degree list. I'm sure there was an immediate list from the ship being pushed when hitting the rock. And then some listing from any sharp turns made. But did it settle to less than 20 degrees.

 

There are photos early in this thread where the ship was low in the water and it was not listing 20 degrees.

 

Of course the captain has to say more than 20 degrees. That's the magic number where they don't necessarily have to work.

 

The 20 degrees should be chapter 6 of LSA codes????? Not positive.:o

[IRL_Joanie]

On the other hand, there are some things that bring out the protector in us. I know I have a weakness for pets, small children and the elderly. Thankfully, I wouldn't have to get in a situation where I risked my life on a ship to save a cat. :D And most children will be with their parent. But I know, I know, I couldn't pass a frightened elderly woman having problems managing the stairs. I would be incapable of not helping, even if I knew logically it was the wrong thing to do at the time.

 

What I worry about is that I will freeze at the wrong time. When I watch certain movies there is often a point where I think "well, that would be it for me then." I'm unfortunately aware that I'm not the stuff that action/disaster movie protagonists are made of!

 

Believe me, as a Former EMT/Firefighter, YOU ARE Made of the right stuff!!! How do I know?? Because we all think just like you!!! We all think of what we are afraid we would or would not be able to do in such a situation. We are afraid that we will freeze when that actual time of putting our lives in danger for another. BUT we do not!!! We jump in. It is not heroism, it is the way we are inside of us.

 

I do not know how to explain it better. I wish I could. BUT I do want to say that as someone who uses a scooter, rollator and/or cane as necessary mobility aids, I would much rather have someone like you beside me than a hot head who thinks he/she is Super Man or Super Woman!! A person who questions their ability to react in a dangerous situation is much safer to be with in just such a situation:)

 

Joanie

[HelloHelloHola]

Believe me, as a Former EMT/Firefighter, YOU ARE Made of the right stuff!!! How do I know?? Because we all think just like you!!! We all think of what we are afraid we would or would not be able to do in such a situation. We are afraid that we will freeze when that actual time of putting our lives in danger for another. BUT we do not!!! We jump in. It is not heroism, it is the way we are inside of us.

 

First of all, I'd like to say thank you for your service. Not that it makes a difference, but were you are volunteer? I know what you mean about the feeling to help someone. Personally, I feel that if someone is in need of help and if I didn't help, then there is a feeling of guilt and a hole in my heart.

[Hebersgyll]

So why did it happen that no bridge offficers took any action when previous dangerous sail bys of the island took place, just a few metres from where the Concordia was impaled? Was it due to some aspect embedded in human psychology that sends people into a kind of denial when extreme peril occurs?

 

Its just conjecture, but I can illustrate this with a couple of apparent digressions. First, I recall watching video footage shot in shops during the recent Japan earthquake (& other earthquakes). The room sways, floors walls, ceilings all shaking, items of goods falling off the shelves. What do the shop assistants do? Well, sometimes they rush over to replace these items back on the shelves... then they hold their arms wide to stop more items falling down. Only when the shaking persists & becomes more violent do they make their escape & evacuate the shop. It seems, at first, they can't accept what's happening & they want to maintain their world as they like to perceive it!

 

Another example, a current one of a Yahooo news video clip of schoolchildren oin their way to school in Sumatra (I'm not good at posting video clips, unfortunately). The kids have to negotiate a rope bridge across a wide, swollen river to reach their school. Rope bridges can be scary. This one is certainly scary!!! One side has given way along its entire length, destroyed and carried off in recent floods. So the kids are gingerly climbing aong the vertical remains of one side of this bridge, negotiating past obstacles on the way. (They look lovely, some in traditional dress, others in more western style clothes, all carrying their school satchels.) Some are doing this confidently....Hey, we're getting used to this by now, its O.K.! Others look petrified, almost frozen in terror for fear of falling into the water. The kids help each other but no adults are assisting them. A uniformed officer complains at the end of the clip about the time the regional authorities are taking to mend the bridge.

 

The message we seem to be meant to take from the clip is to be full of admiration for the kids' motivation and determination to maintain their schooling, despite extreme adversity (and unlike the attitude of some kids in the western world!)

OK, so lets imagine the scene after the schoolteacher takes the register. Looking up he/she says 'Well, good morning children, & well done for getting to school again this morning and not falling off the wonky bridge into the swollen river'... or something like that...? BUT, shouldn't we alternatively think, hang on here... why is this teacher encouraging the children to risk their lives by coming to school this way? Isn't the teacher failing to react to a grave hazard & shouldn't the kids be set work to do at home until the bridge is mended? Is the schoolteacher rather like those bridge officers who stood there & perhaps sucked their cheek & whistled while Schettino (others too?) whizzed past a few yards from that reef at 15 knots, in the dark, on previous occasions? (mustn't they have been in denial of all their own training and experience?)

 

And the kids parents? Just imagine the conversation at start of the day. 'Have a nice day at school dear... & just be careful you don't fall off that wonky bridge across the swollen river on your way to school, now'. Lets suppose the weather changes during the day, so on the way back its raining. Now the kids are soaked, trying to cross that wonky bridge which is now very wet and slippery and they slither along, helping each other again, while holding their satchel over their head with one arm to keep off the rain. Maybe one or two don't make it & they fall off and get eaten up by crocodiles waiting below...?

So what do we make of those parents? Do we admire them for packing their kids off to school as usual, or do we think they must be nuts for placing their children in such great danger? Maybe the parents can stand in for all the townspeople who saw the huge cruise liners zipping a few yards from their rocky coastline, at night, on a number of occasions and never thought there was any need to question it?

 

Worth considering... that maybe we (or some of us in certain conditions) just don't like to recognise danger even when the peril is close-by and imminent?

[IRL_Joanie]

First of all, I'd like to say thank you for your service. Not that it makes a difference, but were you are volunteer? I know what you mean about the feeling to help someone. Personally, I feel that if someone is in need of help and I didn't help. There is a feeling of guilt and a hole in my heart.

 

I was a Volunteer EMT/Firefighter in both Mt Arlington and Mt Hope Township Volunteer Fire Departments in New Jersey from 1989 - 1991, and then again as a volunteer with the Bernalillo County, Albuquerque, New Mexico Volunteer Fire Department from 1991-1993.

 

Every call I went on I was scared to death of what I would see and what I would be able to do. Human nature makes us fear. Stupidity makes us do stupid things and take chances that imperils others:(

 

I am highly impressed with the response of the Giglio Fire Rescue personnel, the Cave Divers (scuba divers), Captain Bossi, the Ships doctor, the Assistant Mayor and all the personnel involved in the Concordia rescue/recovery. These are true heroes!!

 

Joanie

[mainelycruising]

Another issue for the Cruise Industry to deal with is having real time live monitoring of the bridge from a command center. With current technology, a home base command center watches the bridge and all of the controls and discussions and stats and readings. They watch the TV monitors on the ship, and the TV camera pointing out to sea.

 

Had there been a command center real time monitoring of this ship, then, the home base command center issues warnings to the bridge about dangers and inappropriate headings, or speeds, and things of that sort.

 

Now that cruise ships are 4000 people and going higher by design, then, it makes more economic scale of sense to set up 24-7 live monitoring of the ship and using all of the available current technology for the welfare of the ship and passengers.

 

Even the idea of a black box is antiquated, on planes and ships, since, all of those data entries can be sent live to a command center for storage.

 

Each plane in the sky can send the same data to a control tower or company command center that is being sent to a so called black box.

 

Sure, keep the black boxes, but, also have live real time transmission of data to the command center.

 

The bottom line, the cruise industry really need to catch up with technology and think of more ways to prevent a disaster of this type and others that are within the realm of human imagination and vision.

 

Do you think that Miami WASN'T watching this???

 

If not, Micky Arison is less able than I thought he was.

[mainelycruising]

I was a Volunteer EMT/Firefighter in both Mt Arlington and Mt Hope Township Volunteer Fire Departments in New Jersey from 1989 - 1991, and then again as a volunteer with the Bernalillo County, Albuquerque, New Mexico Volunteer Fire Department from 1991-1993.

 

Every call I went on I was scared to death of what I would see and what I would be able to do. Human nature makes us fear. Stupidity makes us do stupid things and take chances that imperils others:(

 

I am highly impressed with the response of the Giglio Fire Rescue personnel, the Cave Divers (scuba divers), Captain Bossi, the Ships doctor, the Assistant Mayor and all the personnel involved in the Concordia rescue/recovery. These are true heroes!!

 

Joanie

 

Agreed ewntirely. I note that Costa has issued no public thanks.

[EVALUATOR]

Here is a video about the Oasis of the Seas. It is a small scale stability simulator.

 

The scary part is at the very end of the video where Wright says those corporate words, "would not have to abandon ship"

[HelloHelloHola]

I was a Volunteer EMT/Firefighter in both Mt Arlington and Mt Hope Township Volunteer Fire Departments in New Jersey from 1989 - 1991, and then again as a volunteer with the Bernalillo County, Albuquerque, New Mexico Volunteer Fire Department from 1991-1993.

 

I know exactly where it is. Knew someone in Wharton First Aid Squad, NJ. Thanks again. You are a hero too. Sorry for being off track.