Costa Concordia SINKING

[wishful thinking]

2 more female bodies found on board. So very sad.

[UMDCruiseProf]

Oh those tubes look dreadful and will cause a lot of impact injuries.

 

Respectfully... please... can you post some stats/info here to back that up because they have done very well in independent testing and have yet to be used in a Concrodia type disaster. If you are not truly familiar it might not be best to tarnish this type of safety gear.

 

And I think that guy said the F word when he landed so imagine someone older or younger.

 

Well... you would too if you just dropped down a 60 foot chute. I've said worse coming down water slides at Six Flags... but I wasn't in any real danger :p And ultimately... it's about getting off fast, isn't it?

[TLCOhio]

From Business Week/Bloomberg News in the past 15 minutes this morning, they have this headline: "Concordia’s Death Toll at 13 as Italy Prepares Fuel Removal" with these highlights: "Italian search teams resumed operations on Carnival Corp.’s Costa Concordia cruise ship after finding a 13th body and preparations began to remove 500,000 gallons of fuel from the damaged vessel. Divers set off more explosives onboard the ship at a depth of about 15 meters (49 feet) to 18 meters today to allow them to reach remote parts of the boat. Rescuers found the body of a woman yesterday, taking the death toll to 13. The number of missing people is 24. The Concordia might have been carrying some unregistered passengers, Franco Gabrielli, the Civil Protection Agency official overseeing the search operations, said at a press conference broadcast by SkyTG24. That makes it difficult to determine the number of missing people."

 

From AP newswire in the last 30 minutes, they have this headline: "Italian officials: ship stable, fuel removal imminent" with these highlights: "Italian officials say experts can begin pumping fuel from a capsized cruise ship while divers continue the search for people still missing. Admiral Ilarione dell'Anna said Monday that the fuel removal could begin as early as Tuesday."

 

From the Daily Mail in London in the last hour, they have this headline: "Survivors of Costa Concordia tragedy offered 30% discount on their NEXT cruise amid £100m lawsuit threat" with these highlights: "It is believed that the firm is trying to reduce the damage from an impending lawsuit, which could cost it more than £100million in compensation. So far, 100 passengers have joined a class action suit to be filed against owners Carnival Cruises in Miami, Florida. Each is said to be demanding between £100,000 and £1million."

 

Full stories at:

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-01-23/concordia-s-death-toll-at-13-as-italy-prepares-fuel-removal.html

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g4u_49QziI8YtK9arOU_VSOhBvyQ?docId=cc03fb178f95486da2b558bca958e46b

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2090573/Costa-Concordia-survivors-offered-30-discount-cruise-amid-100m-lawsuit-threat.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

 

THANKS! Terry in Ohio

 

Did a June 7-19, 2011, Solstice cruise from Barcelona that had stops in Villefranche, ports near Pisa and Rome, Naples, Kotor, Venice and Dubrovnik. Enjoyed great weather and a wonderful trip. Dozens of wonderful visuals with key highlights, tips, comments, etc., on these postings. We are now at 59.067 views for this live/blog re-cap on our first sailing with Celebrity and much on wonderful Barcelona. Check these postings and added info at:

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1426474

[Princess Patches]

On many of the newer ships the crew are being allocated life rafts as opposed to life boats. I have recently cruised on Celebrity Eclipse and they have massive life rafts that hold 500 people. I have posted previously about them, To enter these new 'evacuation devices' as they are called they are inflated like evacuation slides on aircraft and then a very narrow and enclosed chute is needed so that crew can slide 6-8 decks straight down vertically into them.

 

They are very very scary things. I note that most of the mega ships like Oasis of the Seas and the new Celebrity ships all have these. I do not believe they were fitted to this ship. I will post a link to these new style rafts when I can find them.

 

The main advantage is that they free up deck space and views. This has massive cost advantages but in an emergency such as this one it would mean that there simply isn't enough room on outside decks to muster all passengers.

 

My other main concern is that these big ships have several of these massive rafts. Most, as far as I can tell allocated to crew. That's fine on a perfect night, in calm seas. But if this disaster was repeated on a mega ship fitted with new rafts and just one of them can't be launched, you instantly get a situation where 500 people have no any way to get off the ship. Multiply that by the loss of several of these rafts and you would quickly end up with several thousand people without a life raft/or boat.

 

I really think after this disaster the cruise companies are going to have to rethink 500 person rafts - as we have seen with Costa Concorda there is just too much can go wrong.

 

If this was Oasis of the seas we were talking about we could double all the numbers - and that means perhaps closer to 100 dead. But if any of the 500 person rafts couldn't have been used then it could easily be 1000s.

 

Is that acceptable? - I think not.

 

 

I am going to have disagree somewhat. While I do not think these rafts should replace standard lifeboats, I think they should now become MANDATORY back up craft on all ships after the Concordia disaster. We have seen that standard lifeboats become useless if the ship lists more than 20 degrees (not hard to do when the hull is breached). These massive rafts can be deployed even if the ship is completely capsized onto its side as was the Concordia.

 

I would MUCH, MUCH rather go down one of those slide shoots then crawl across an oily, wet, cold hull on a rope ladder to a small raft below that I had to drop into. I do not know how the last 300 or so Concordia passengers got up the courage to do that hull crawl. It took many of them hours to do this. I am in awe of their courage. Give me a few seconds in a slide shoot any day!!

 

I think there should be enough of these life rafts on all ships to accommodate all passengers (especially since they don't take up that much room when not inflated). This would be a life saving backup for undeployable standard lifeboats. I would like to see that safety change occur as the result of the Concordia disaster.

 

Finally, as to the capacity to carry 500 passengers many of the newer megaship standard lifeboats carry about 400 passengers so that is not much different. Hopefully, you won't be in these rafts for long until rescue.

 

I think if the Concordia had a few of these rafts on board, no one would have perished, no one would have had to swim to shore and no one would have had to crawl across the hull on nothing but a rope.

 

Kudos to whoever thought of and designed these massive rafts. What a fantastic idea!! And thanks to you for posting about them. I had never seen these before.

[HelloHelloHola]

I did see that (French couple, she was military, he was police) but had the impression they were witnessing it from the deck, not from within the lifeboat. I think they (or many other passengers) would have confronted the captain if they had been in his presence when he was telling De Falco he wouldn't return to the ship.

 

Based on some reports that the captain was conducting the evacuation from the lifeboat. If there were passengers on the same lifeboat with him, then it would interfere with the passengers need to use that lifeboat to get to safety, which is the shore. But based on all these contradiction of stories. I would wait for the official one to be released in the future. All this is a long-winded way of saying I don't know whether passengers were with him on the same lifeboat or not.

[HelloHelloHola]

Its much the same as the aircraft one, take ones shoes off.

 

Rgds

:D

 

Anyone know if this device is subjective to the same list limitations that the lowering of the lifeboat is?

[HelloHelloHola]

I'd never recognize the officers of any of the ships I've been on. Without a white shirt and an authoritative walk, that is. I'm even bad with the insignia...even at the Cunard captain's party I couldn't identify "the big man" himself. I just smile and nod alot.

 

I suppose it would be different if it was important to you.

 

On the other hand, I walked within grabbing distance of Orlando Bloom when he was shooting a film in Central Park and we were well past before my husband told me and I looked back and actually recognized him. (And I think Orlando Bloom is way cooler than a sea captain :cool:) So maybe I just wander around in an unobservant haze all the time.

 

Yes, you are right, I would recognize a captain if he/she has a uniform on. He/she is the one with four stripes, same for aviation.

[captainmcd]

Have enjoyed UMDcruiseprof's postings. I agree that evacuation by slide, although not perfect, is no more dangerous than lowering a lifeboat into rough seas and releasing it. I have spent so far 50 years at sea, and seen more people hurt launching boats during drills than almost any other activity. Many more modern freighters have the crew board a lifeboat that is catapulted off the stern. The crew are strapped into seats to protect them from the landing. This would not be practical for the thousands of passengers on modern cruise ships.

[Milaandra]

2 more female bodies found on board. So very sad.

 

Could you post the link? I'm only finding stories from 4 hours ago.

[sr5242]

Could you post the link? I'm only finding stories from 4 hours ago.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/23/world/europe/italy-cruise-main/index.html

[Feelin' Nauti']

Just got this email from RCL on their saftey program:

Adam Goldstein

President and CEO

Royal Caribbean International

I received the same email.

 

Wonder if Costa Crociere sent an email out to their past passengers.

Doubt it!

[Milaandra]

Anyone know if this device is subjective to the same list limitations that the lowering of the lifeboat is?

 

I was thinking about that myself, but you could deploy it from the bow or the stern, couldn't you?

 

At least you could send more people into lifeboats from the listing side once the regular boats were away.

 

I wonder if there is any danger using them in a shorter fall...i.e. could people get caught in them and suffocate or something. I wonder if you can cut them to size?

[Princess Patches]

Anyone know if this device is subjective to the same list limitations that the lowering of the lifeboat is?

 

They do not inflate until they are placed in the water so they can be deployed even if the ship has capsized.

[Milaandra]

A few days ago, someone commenting under a news story said that with the amount of people on modern cruiseships, the companies should consider a pod system of evacuation.

 

Any idea what that would be?

[LabratSR]

Harbor Masters log released

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/9030216/Costa-Concordia-Harbour-masters-log-shows-how-the-disaster-unfolded.html

[Milaandra]

Who's Orlando Bloom?

 

An actor. Very cute. Nice accent. Too young. :(

[Cuizer2]

Who's Orlando Bloom?

 

He is William Turner, son of Bootstrap Turner ...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Turner

[captainmcd]

But there IS a control system... have you been on a modern cruise ship bridge? If you look at the radar info on any bridge you will see that ships use transponders much like aircraft - and they display a LOT more info than the aircraft transponder. Sat nav systems provide near total global coverage and allow for corporate check-ins of the bridge, course, and other operating parameters. Ships have black boxes that provide a wealth of information (if they are working - Costa... you stink).

 

And honestly... you can't fix what happened on the Concordia because you can't fix corporate and/or personal stupidity... or worse yet evil intentions. Egypt Air flight 990 was deliberately flown into the sea by the pilot killing all 217 on board. How did air traffic control stop that one? Air Florida flight 90 crashed due to gross pilot negligence... how did air traffic control stop that one? Colgan Air Flight 3407 crashed because the pilots were overworked and were distracting themselves with chit chat (the pilot was hitting on his female co-pilot at one point) while the plane was iced out of the skies. Respectfully sir, I ask you: how did air traffic control systems (or even CRM) stop those examples (and I could give you a DOZEN more similar air disasters including the worst loss of life in air transportation history [Tenerife airport disaster: 3/27/77 - due to gross pilot error])?

 

No control system will stop these type of accidents because they can't stop human stupidity, negligence, arrogance, incompetence, or distraction. There will never be a system that can stop any of the accidents we've discussed, because they can not be stopped by control systems. Engineers don't plan around folks like "Kosta, their Krazy Kaptain, and his Keystone Krew"... they plan on people using their puzzlers and their extensive training.

 

So true! When I first sailed as a cadet in 1962 we had only USCG and SOLAS conventions, but in the past 20 years we have added, thanks to IMO, STCW (Standards of Watchkeeping) which required mariners, especially captains to re-certify on skills and abilities they have been using for years. It was designed to prevent some countries from selling licenses. It only made it more expensive, since you can now buy the certificates. Then ISM (Safety Management) which requires tons of paperwork stating that you have checked all equipment, and have written procedures for all regular tasks. Now someone can sit at their desk and spend time filling out papers instead of actually doing their job. The only thing ISM does is make it easy to assign blame for an accident, it will not prevent the accidents. Then ISPS (Ship and Port Security Convention) limits access to ports and control areas of the ship. More paperwork, little practical help in preventing any acts of piracy or terrorism. I had to pay $135 to TSA for a biometric ID card to access ports. I tried to use it in Midway airport as an ID with boarding pass to pass security, and they did not recognize it. They called police, and were not satisfied until I showed them my Texas Driver's License. TSA failed to recognize their own ID document! Is that good security?

 

More regulations and rules will not solve anything. You can not legislate common sense and good judgement.

[HelloHelloHola]

I was thinking about that myself, but you could deploy it from the bow or the stern, couldn't you?

 

At least you could send more people into lifeboats from the listing side once the regular boats were away.

 

I wonder if there is any danger using them in a shorter fall...i.e. could people get caught in them and suffocate or something. I wonder if you can cut them to size?

 

I suppose technically you can deploy it from the bow or the stern. And yes, you specified many legitimate concerns. Perhaps some education of them would be helpful. Anyone know if Oasis of the Seas, etc describe these devices on safety videos?

 

The video that was linked here showed this device (btw, what is it called anyway) has 2 chutes for parallel sliding.

 

To Princess Patches, thanks, now that you said it, I remembered it inflated in the water in the video.

[Milaandra]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/23/world/europe/italy-cruise-main/index.html

 

Thanks. More with lifejackets...

 

It's good to know, though, that they are starting the fuel removal.

[shipfriend_max]

Hooray - the pumping out process has begun! At least one positive message!! :)

 

http://translate.google.de/#de|en|Das%20vor%20der%20K%C3%BCste%20der%20Toskana-Insel%20auf%20der%20Seite%20liegende%20Schiff%20sei%20%E2%80%9Estabil%E2%80%9C%2C%20es%20gebe%20keine%20Gefahr%2C%20dass%20es%20in%20die%20Tiefe%20rutsche

 

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/weltspiegel/15-tote-nach-costa-concordia-unglueck-drohende-umweltkatastrophe-abpumpaktion-kann-beginnen/6070408.html

 

 

[reallyitsmema]

Hooray - the pumping out process has begun! At least one positive message!! :)

Where are you seeing it has begun? The one article linked says it was to begin on Monday but if you look at the live cam, there is no tanker the fuel would likely be pumped into or any additional boats that would likely be used in this process. Other articles have said it was to begin last Wednesday but that didn't happen.

 

Edit: On the left side of the cam, there is another ship that has come into frame but can not see any equipment from it going to the Concordia.

[Charles4515]

But there IS a control system... have you been on a modern cruise ship bridge? If you look at the radar info on any bridge you will see that ships use transponders much like aircraft - and they display a LOT more info than the aircraft transponder. Sat nav systems provide near total global coverage and allow for corporate check-ins of the bridge, course, and other operating parameters. Ships have black boxes that provide a wealth of information (if they are working - Costa... you stink).

 

And honestly... you can't fix what happened on the Concordia because you can't fix corporate and/or personal stupidity... or worse yet evil intentions. Egypt Air flight 990 was deliberately flown into the sea by the pilot killing all 217 on board. How did air traffic control stop that one? Air Florida flight 90 crashed due to gross pilot negligence... how did air traffic control stop that one? Colgan Air Flight 3407 crashed because the pilots were overworked and were distracting themselves with chit chat (the pilot was hitting on his female co-pilot at one point) while the plane was iced out of the skies. Respectfully sir, I ask you: how did air traffic control systems (or even CRM) stop those examples (and I could give you a DOZEN more similar air disasters including the worst loss of life in air transportation history [Tenerife airport disaster: 3/27/77 - due to gross pilot error])?

 

No control system will stop these type of accidents because they can't stop human stupidity, negligence, arrogance, incompetence, or distraction. There will never be a system that can stop any of the accidents we've discussed, because they can not be stopped by control systems. Engineers don't plan around folks like "Kosta, their Krazy Kaptain, and his Keystone Krew"... they plan on people using their puzzlers and their extensive training.

 

I agree that you can't stop stupidity. My thinking though is that if they have someone at the cruise line tracking the ship, and they simply called the Captain and said to him that is an unsafe course, that it is an unsafe route that he should not take it, which is something that could have been seen before the 10 seconds someone keeps mentioning, that maybe the Captain would have come to his senses and not done it. He would have to justify why he was going that route. There is still the possibility he would have done it anyway but maybe he would not have done it with that little intervention.

 

I can't understand why having someone on shore monitoring the ships outrages our sailor friends so much. We are not talking about ships carrying freight. We are talking about ships carrying human beings.

[wishful thinking]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/23/world/europe/italy-cruise-main/index.html

 

Thanks sr5242. Wasn't sure how to do it.

[UMDCruiseProf]

Have enjoyed UMDcruiseprof's postings.

 

:)

 

I agree that evacuation by slide, although not perfect, is no more dangerous than lowering a lifeboat into rough seas and releasing it. I have spent so far 50 years at sea, and seen more people hurt launching boats during drills than almost any other activity.

 

That's the thing - lifeboats are a lot more dangerous than you'd think. Slides are quick and terminate in the life raft... that's all I need. And one other thing to note: I'd rather be in a HUGE raft in rough seas -v- a small lifeboat commanded by... say... the cruise director (no offense to cruise directors).