Are the captains qualified enough?

[AWorldCruise4Me]

Prior to the Concordia I had seen the video on the Oceanos when the captain and the senior officers abandoned ship before the passengers.

 

Now were seeing the Concordia captain also being a coward and incompetent in the face of an emergency.

 

So I did a bit of research on the internet to understand what made a captain qualified to be a captain.

 

It doesn't appear to be as much as I would have thought.

 

I would pay more to sail with a captain with a great deal of sailing experience, preferably with the military so they have emergency procedure training.

 

Does the industry need to pay captains more to attract the quality of individual needed? Does there need to be stricter requirements for captains? How can we be assured that we are sailing with an individual who drills their staff in emergency procedures and understands what they should do in an emergency? Are these two sinking cruise ships (the Oceanos and the Concordia) an anomaly or is this indicative of a larger problem with ship's captains. I realize one happened in 1991 and one in 2012 but cruise ships don't sink that often.

 

I know many people on this board know alot more about this than I do and I would appreciate hearing about other's thoughts on this matter.

[Djonemore]

I have a question in regards to your question. I'm curious how many cruise ships, have American captains?

-Matt

[Despegue]

Almost no American Captains on cruise ships.

Almost all Captains on all lines are EU citizens and highly trained in some of the world's best Maritime academy's. US maritime personnel is not at all better trained than their EU counterparts.:rolleyes:

 

I am very much AGAINST Navy personnel transferring to the cruise lines without a very thorough retraining. Especially in Bridge Resource Management.

The same goes for Aviation. Military pilots are not better than civilian trained collegues and have often a lot of difficulties in the multi-crew concept and teamwork.

On the Bridge, the chain of command should never be such as thet the lower ranking officer can not voice his/hers opinion and raise concerns and correct when the officer in Charge makes a dubious decision or is about to make an error. This is not navy tradition where the authority of the Commander is total and not to be discussed. This behaviour is probably a contributing factor to the accident in Giglio.

[simonpjd]

Marine officer training. (I have used shore side jargon)

They do not insist on a drgree - in fact most join as cadets at age 16. I joined at age 18 with A levels but I was in the minority.

4 year cadetship - split in half with sea time and college time - leading to 2nd Officers ticket. That qualifies you to sail as a 2nd Officer - but normally you get promoted to 3rd Oficer with this.

Another 24 months sea time later you can sit the 1st Officers exam. Another 6 months at college for this.

Then another 24 months at sea before you can sit a masters. Another 6 months at college. Pass rate is low. If you fail any part of any exam you have to retake the lot. Pass mark is high - around 75% on all papers. 90% for signals and navigation. And there is a very scary oral exam where you get quizzed for an hour+ by a master mariner about anything and they decide if you are competent.

In all you cannot be qualified as a master marner until age 28 or so so not an easy path. It is one of the few jobs left where everyone above you has done your job so really knows all about it.

Also having a ticket doesn't mean you sail at that rank.

When I left the sea I was 28 and had a 1st Officers ticket and would have taken my masters a year later. But I was sailing as a 2nd Officer.

Promotion to mate was around age 35 and Master would be late 40s.

Of course, as usual, the standards and exams taken by us Brits were a lot harder than most.

 

Having said all of this anyone sailing 300 yards off the rocks (to me) is a complete clown. I know captains who sailed outside the Scilly Isles as they thought it too dangerous to sail through the 8 mile channel between the islands and Lands End !!

[AWorldCruise4Me]

Thanks for the input particularly regarding the military training. So here is what I found on-line about this captain's background.

 

"Captain Schettino joined Costa Crociere in 2002 as a Safety Officer and was appointed Captain in 2006, after acting as Staff Captain as well. As all Costa Masters, he has been constantly trained passing all tests."

http://www.maritimeprofessional.net/News/342089.aspx

 

I read the description of Staff Captain where they have pretty broad duties but are also supposed to be capable of piloting the ship. But if your previous position is Safety Officer does book training in sailing really give him the experience necessary to take over such a position?

 

It does seem he should have been qualified to handle the emergency from a management experience view point but clearly he wasn't since he ran away. He could have just been not emotionally solid enough (a cowardly personality) or maybe he was drunk.

 

Clearly there are different types of people in this world. Some who can keep a clear head in an emergency and think of others besides themselves and those that can't. Should there be personality analysis to try and weed out those who can't? Or are they already in place and this guy squeezed by?

 

Thanks again for providing insight.

[ODA 564]

Thanks for the input particularly regarding the military training. So here is what I found on-line about this captain's background.

 

"Captain Schettino joined Costa Crociere in 2002 as a Safety Officer and was appointed Captain in 2006, after acting as Staff Captain as well. As all Costa Masters, he has been constantly trained passing all tests."

http://www.maritimeprofessional.net/News/342089.aspx

 

I read the description of Staff Captain where they have pretty broad duties but are also supposed to be capable of piloting the ship. But if your previous position is Safety Officer does book training in sailing really give him the experience necessary to take over such a position?

 

It does seem he should have been qualified to handle the emergency from a management experience view point but clearly he wasn't since he ran away. He could have just been not emotionally solid enough (a cowardly personality) or maybe he was drunk.

 

Clearly there are different types of people in this world. Some who can keep a clear head in an emergency and think of others besides themselves and those that can't. Should there be personality analysis to try and weed out those who can't? Or are they already in place and this guy squeezed by?

 

Thanks again for providing insight.

 

The way you weed out people who can't handle stress is through stressful training.

 

Training simulators with smoke, rolling decks, blaring klaxons, confusing reports, etc.

 

You have to be able to take control of yourself, conquer your fear (or at least tame it), and do the job (duty) regardless.

 

And there has to be a cultural attitude that you will see to your duty at all hazards. That it isn't just a job with a paycheck.

 

Firemen don't go into burning buildings for their paycheck. Captain Sollenberger didn't personally check every seat on Flight 1549 before he went out onto the wing in the Hudson River because US Air paid him so well.

[Topsham]

Thanks for the input particularly regarding the military training. So here is what I found on-line about this captain's background.

 

"Captain Schettino joined Costa Crociere in 2002 as a Safety Officer and was appointed Captain in 2006, after acting as Staff Captain as well. As all Costa Masters, he has been constantly trained passing all tests."

http://www.maritimeprofessional.net/News/342089.aspx

 

I read the description of Staff Captain where they have pretty broad duties but are also supposed to be capable of piloting the ship. But if your previous position is Safety Officer does book training in sailing really give him the experience necessary to take over such a position?

 

quote]

 

 

 

The Safety Officer is a rank within the the Deck Department and every officer on his way through the ranks (on board passenger ships) from Cadet to Captain would spend a period on board in this capacity. I believe on most passengers ship the Safety Officer is at Chief Officer level.

 

For my own training, I went to sea as a Navigating Cadet in 1970 at age 17. My perios at sea were mixed with various training periods at the Gasgow College of Nautical Studies.

 

I was promoted to Uncertificated Third Officer in late 1972 and sailed in that rank until mid 1974. I passed examination for Second Mate and was promoted to Second Officer in early 1975. I sat the examination for First Mate in 1976 and was promoted to Chief Officer in 1977. I sat for Master (Foreign Going) in 1981 and was promoted to Master (Captain) in 1982 at the ripe old age of 29!!!

 

My career was spent on many different ship types including bulkcarriers, tankers, VLCC's, container ships, general cargo ships, reefers and banana boats. I sailed as Chief Officer in one passenger ship... did not like it at all and went back to bananas! In 1983 I came ashore as Harbour Master for about 18 months and then decided to start a completely different career. I did go back to sea from time to time as a Delivery Master.

I tried cruising... likes it and to date have completed 156 cruises for a total of 1,706 sea days.

[Topsham]

Then another 24 months at sea before you can sit a masters. Another 6 months at college.

 

Pass rate is low.

 

Promotion to mate was around age 35 and Master would be late 40s.

Of course, as usual, the standards and exams taken by us Brits were a lot harder than most.

 

Having said all of this anyone sailing 300 yards off the rocks (to me) is a complete clown.

quote]

 

 

Simon,

 

I cannot fail to agree with everything you have said here. Spot on.

 

I sat for Master in Glasgow 1981 and was advised at the end of that year through the college that I had achieved the highest marks for Master's writtens for that year... for the whole of the UK. I won a twenty pound voucher for Boots!!!!

 

Yes, British tickets are generally considered to be the at the highest standard in the world.

 

As for sailing close inshore... any first trip cadet would have more comon sense!

 

Cheers.

[frito58]

You know not I would have even give this a second thought until now. Having sailed a dozen times we have never even considered the thought a Capt. may be an "idiot" for lack of a better word. If you would have asked me a week ago if a ship like this could sink by hitting rocks I would say no way. They are way to advanced way to many people onboard that are trained to let something like that ever happen. But you know it there is one bad and and untrained capt there are more, you can count on that. I am not saying they are all bad but it will make you wonder.

[irun5k]

Captain Sollenberger didn't personally check every seat on Flight 1549 before he went out onto the wing in the Hudson River because US Air paid him so well.

 

He was a highly decorated F4 pilot, and an instructor I believe, in the Air Force. Generally I'd feel pretty good having someone with those credentials in charge. It certainly can't hurt anyway.

[Hunwolf]

Have these guys been checked for testicles because apparently they're in short supply.

 

When the going gets tough apparently they shrivel up and get going.

[AWorldCruise4Me]

We haven't yet heard what other Concordia officers were in the lifeboat with the captain. How deep did this coward/incompetence problem run on the Concordia?