Did Cunard jump "ship" too soon?

[Cruachan]

Interesting article in today's Daily Telegraph:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9026098/British-ships-to-be-allowed-to-hold-weddings-at-sea.html

 

Presumably if this goes through, Cunard will, straight away, return to the UK register?

 

Then again...

 

J

[balf]

As we know there were more reasons than weddings for the Cunard move so a possible move back to UK? Don't think so.

 

David.

[zider]

Weddings at sea in my opinion was only a smokescreen the real issue is the new European employment laws, So even though i would like to see Cunard return to being registered again in the U.K. i really can not see that happening.

[Whitemarsh]

Weddings at sea in my opinion was only a smokescreen the real issue is the new European employment laws, So even though i would like to see Cunard return to being registered again in the U.K. i really can not see that happening.

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head. The real issue (I believe) was the employment laws.

[Mrs. Wilburforce]

Interesting article in today's Daily Telegraph:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9026098/British-ships-to-be-allowed-to-hold-weddings-at-sea.html

 

Presumably if this goes through, Cunard will, straight away, return to the UK register?

 

Then again...

 

J

 

Unfortunately, I think that ship has sailed. I'm just wondering if government and Cunard are regretting their decision. They don't like having their fleet lumped in with the rest of the cruise industry now that they no longer sail under the British flag. In light of the Costa disaster, Bermuda is a flag of inconvenience

[BlueRiband]

This seems to be a tactic used by politicians on both sides of the Atlantic: put out a press statement that will do nothing but look like he/she is doing something.

 

Cunard's public spin was the need to have revenue from weddings at sea. So if the law passes the legislators can say they gave the shipping companies what they said they needed - a claim of being "pro-business". But they take no action on the real reason why every cruise ship left the UK registry - the Equality Law - and avoid the risk of being labeled "anti-labor".

[missfrankiecat]

The whole weddings at sea justification for convenience flagging was always a complete smokescreen. I gather that Cunard didn't do any lobbying to try and get that particular legislation changed. I wish the government had called their bluff by announcing this policy change earlier but given the speed with which Cunard announced and put into effect the change, I suppose it was impossible.

[Sauer-kraut]

They've already spent the money to sand off the stern anyways....

[Salacia]

I don't know how much of the information is accurate, but a interesting article about John Prescott raising concers in the House of Lords about Cunard registering its ships in Bermuda, can be found here:

 

http://www.royalgazette.com/article/20120123/NEWS01/701239928/-1

[BlueRiband]

"..shipowners whose vessels are registered here [in Bermuda] must comply with local regulations giving effect to the 1995 amendments to the International Convention on Standards of Training, Certification and Watchkeeping for Seafarers (STCW)...The Bermuda Department of Maritime Administration does not issue certificates of competency. Instead it recognises by endorsement, in accordance with regulation I/10 of the STCW Convention, certificates issued by a range of other countries.”

 

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but this would appear that ANY country could give a crew member a competancy certificate and Bermuda would recognize it. What one has to worry about are substantial differences country to country in how stringent somebody's seafaring competancy is tested.

 

The favored tax situation is something new. From his comments it would seem that Cunard had to have their ships registered in the UK to meet that requirement and now they would no longer qualify.

[Underwatr]

They've already spent the money to sand off the stern anyways....

Nah, they just tack-welded a plate over the Southampton. Cut off the plate and it's back.

[Salacia]

Nah, they just tack-welded a plate over the Southampton. Cut off the plate and it's back.

 

 

Hmmm...tack welded doesn't sound too permanent to me. I also noticed that the new call letters affixed to the tenders was prominent, but the shadow of the former call letters (is that the right term?) became more visable as the voyage continued. Or maybe I just imagined it. Perhaps current passengers will take a photo of the tenders? ;) Regards, -S.

[DDBINK1]

"..shipowners whose vessels are registered here [in Bermuda] must comply with local regulations giving effect to the 1995 amendments to the International Convention on Standards of Training, Certification and Watchkeeping for Seafarers (STCW)...The Bermuda Department of Maritime Administration does not issue certificates of competency. Instead it recognises by endorsement, in accordance with regulation I/10 of the STCW Convention, certificates issued by a range of other countries.”

 

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but this would appear that ANY country could give a crew member a competancy certificate and Bermuda would recognize it. What one has to worry about are substantial differences country to country in how stringent somebody's seafaring competancy is tested.

 

The favored tax situation is something new. From his comments it would seem that Cunard had to have their ships registered in the UK to meet that requirement and now they would no longer qualify.

 

Maybe they will move the ship registry back when the European Union dissolves.

[Cruachan]

Maybe they will move the ship registry back when the European Union dissolves.

 

ROFL!!!!

 

Bring it on :D:D:D

 

J

[bahrain_not_dubai!]

Remember, when the laws allowed Holland America Line re-registered it's entire fleet from the Netherlands Antilles (the equivalent of a Dutch Bermuda) back to The Netherlands when laws enabled HAL to make as much profit as they would with Antilles registration.

 

It's all about money, and always has been. If Cunard could make more money registering their ships in Harare, Zimbabwe they would if it wasn't for the public outcry, etc (and they'd probably not make more money there anyway- just an example).

 

We all know weddings at sea were never the issue. Otherwise the P&O Australia fleet would have switched their registry too. Which makes me wonder, why haven't they? Are they under the same laws in Australia that they'd be in the UK anyway?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm counting my lucky stars that there are still ships registered in Great Britain, but was wondering in regards to the reason for if it makes sense for Cunard then it'd likely make sense for them too.

[bobby1119]

Hmmm...tack welded doesn't sound too permanent to me. I also noticed that the new call letters affixed to the tenders was prominent, but the shadow of the former call letters (is that the right term?) became more visable as the voyage continued. Or maybe I just imagined it. Perhaps current passengers will take a photo of the tenders? ;) Regards, -S.

 

While crossing on Queen Mary 2 and then Queen Elizabeth over the past two weeks, I just had a bit of a hard time looking at those life rings with Hamilton and those life boats with strange but very ordinary call letters.

[BlueRiband]

While crossing on Queen Mary 2 and then Queen Elizabeth over the past two weeks, I just had a bit of a hard time looking at those life rings with Hamilton and those life boats with strange but very ordinary call letters.

 

I feel the same way. GBQM on her boats marked who she was and from where she came. ZCEF6 is meaningless alphabet soup.

[Salacia]

While crossing on Queen Mary 2 and then Queen Elizabeth over the past two weeks, I just had a bit of a hard time looking at those life rings with Hamilton and those life boats with strange but very ordinary call letters.

 

Hi Bobby. Welcome home. How was your voyage(s)? Regards, -S.

[bobby1119]

Hi Bobby. Welcome home. How was your voyage(s)? Regards, -S.

 

Thanks for the welcome home greeting. I enjoyed the crossings for different reasons on two very different ships.

 

QM2 looked quite good in her post-refit look. The Commodore Club looks even more swank than it did before. I had an A2 and had lots of time to study the controversial carpet which is not as bad as I thought it would be. The drapes and bed furnishings are pleasant, but the red sofa has to go!

 

I was at the Chief Engineer's table along with some very good friends and long time Cunarders. The food in Britannia remains very ordinary, perhaps a bit better than my most recent cruises last winter. The service was good, especially from the servers who know and remember me. I had dinner one evening in the Queens Grill where I found the food to be uninspired and unimaginative in both execution and preparation. Overall, however, QM2 is plagued with considerable crew apathy. Canyon Ranch is still the epicenter of rudeness and arrogance. We had a moderate following sea which the ship handled well, "in her element on the North Atlantic," as the Commodore stated near the end of the crossing. But I still enjoy the experience of riding on a great liner.

 

Queen Elizabeth is a very lovely ship inside, a wonderful tribute to her namesake of 1940 with many loving nods to QE2 throughout the ship.

QE has a very clubby feel, very reminiscent of the great QE2. What she lacks in terms of the spectacle and grandeur of QM2, she makes up in intimacy and graciousness. The art deco theme throughout is lovely, and the Verandah restaurant is one of the most stunning rooms on any ship I have ever seen. (The food was good there, but the service was inattentive, even with the room almost empty.)

 

Other great rooms are the Garden Lounge, the Commodore Club, the Midships Lounge, the Grills Lounge, the Grand Lobby with the marquetry panel of the original QE, and the theatre. The Britannia is a bit deco overdone, however. The Lido functions better than King's Chaos on QM2.

 

I was upgraded from a P1 Princess Grill to a Q5 Queens Suite on the starboard corner of Deck 5 on the stern. The stateroom was dreamy, and the wrap around terrace was very spacious. The food and service in the Queens Grill were respectively stellar and flawless. The room is luxuriously appointed and boasts stunning views of the sea from every table, quite the contrary to the QM2 grill rooms.

 

We had force 9-10 winds and 25' seas on the bow for about 18 hours. You knew you were on a cruiseship and not a liner when the waves reached the Commodore Club and the ship thundered, shimmied and shuddered almost constantly. I could hardly keep my balance in my stateroom where the motion was a mix of roller coaster, seesaw, amusement park mixing bowls and a ferris wheel. Of course, I loved the ride.

 

No cruises planned for the foreseeable future...well, maybe the QV transatlantic in March!;)

 

Keep well & hope to meet you on board some day!

 

Bobby

[BlueRiband]

... Overall, however, QM2 is plagued with considerable crew apathy. Canyon Ranch is still the epicenter of rudeness and arrogance. We had a moderate following sea which the ship handled well, "in her element on the North Atlantic," as the Commodore stated near the end of the crossing. But I still enjoy the experience of riding on a great liner...

 

What I noticed in September was a waiter shortage in the PG after a crew change in Southampton. Has the registry change affected the labor laws that govern the crew? Has the staff been cut overall making more work for fewer people? Some combination of both?

[capnpugwash]

What I noticed in September was a waiter shortage in the PG after a crew change in Southampton. Has the registry change affected the labor laws that govern the crew? Has the staff been cut overall making more work for fewer people? Some combination of both?

 

It would be surprising if the registry change had that effect in September as it didn't take place until during the refit in November.

[BlueRiband]

It would be surprising if the registry change had that effect in September as it didn't take place until during the refit in November.

 

Yes, it's true the registry change on QM2 didn't become effective until after her November/December refit. But I'm asking if there has been an ongoing staff reduction that may have contributed to the low crew morale as mentioned by bobby1119. If there is more and more work to be done in the day, and now the staff is governed by less favorable (for them) labor laws it would explain the negativity he found.

[balf]

 

Cunard used to boast about the high ratio of crew to passengers. Do they still do this?

 

David.

[Salacia]

Cunard used to boast about the high ratio of crew to passengers. Do they still do this?

 

David.

 

 

I haven't noticed any boasting about the high ratio of crew vs passengers. But I do note the number of crew members, and have found no breakdown (on any cruise line) as to how many crew members are mariners, lecturers, shop keepers, photographers, entertainers, clerical staff, medical staff, cabin stewards, laundry workers, salon employees, casino workers, future voyage sales staff, wedding planners, drinks servers, food servers, cooks, cleaners, spa personnel, Kid's Zone staff, tour, library and Pusar staff, engineering staff, officers...etc.

 

In other words, I suggest that is not the ratio of crew to passengers that is of paramount importance, but rather the training and role the crew plays in the safe operation and maintence of the ship. Every ship has only so many berths for crew members. There is a trend that those berths are being occupied according to what generates income for the cruise line - which seems to please the majority of passengers.

 

Please note: In no way do I criticize the various crew member categories mentioned. We're all on the same boat - they want to earn an honest living, and we passengers want to have a nice holiday. Safely.

Are the crew required to do more ? Are passengers being inundated with sales pitches while blithly ignoring safety concerns?