Concordia News: Please Post Here

[LocoLoco1]

Cheng,

You may be the best one to address this to: I know on my smallish vessel if I steer 'Hard to Starboard' while underway, my semi-V-hull and it's chines and overall hull design allows it to heel to Starboard and I have no problem with stability as it smartly avoids an obstruction, floating debris etc. Of course, I have no Ballast Tanks and the boat's response is nearly immediate..it's G and M are never in a perilous state. QUESTION: Does a Cruisehip such as the CONCORDIA react to such a maneuvre in a contrary way?? That is, does it heel first to Port then rights itself or am I incorrect in that regard?

I ask only to make it more clear in my mind as to the state of the CONCORDIA just prior to impact as regards it's X and Y and Z axis and it's Inclinometer readings throughout the maneuver. It seems the location of the long gouge and where the Rock remained impaled in the Hull is so curiously high. At risk of repeating myself..these large vessels seem ungainly as they are designed. 4,000 people aboard vs a Load of Iron Ore demands careful consideration of such things. Regards, Locomotiveman Tom

[SomeBeach]

Thanks for all the additional info from the report. I won't pretend to say I understand all of it but it does help me to grasp some details a bit better.

Uni, thanks for your link. Sounds like a good time was had.

[SomeBeach]

Clive, I know you don't like to follow the other thread on Concordia news but there is an interesting discussion going on about the report by authorities. You might want to drop in on the last page. Look for posts from Cheng and Locomotive Tom for some interesting comments.

 

That suggestion is not to say others haven't made interesting points, it's just 2 new "faces" with their perspectives.

[clive and anne]

Thanks Micki

I do follow the posts on "The Other One" I just wont contribute mainly because a so called moderator some months ago was urging that the wreck be used as a plaything for divers which I found abhorrant.

The two threads have so far divided nicely into the criminal side of the accident and the salvage which is what I am more interested in.

This thread has had some great contributions from yourself and a lot of other people and our discussions, even when we dont always agree, has been on a friendly helpful basis and long may that continue.

Best Wishes

Clive

[cruiserfanfromct]

Uni, thanks for your link. Sounds like a good time was had.

 

Yes, I second that. Thanks for the review Uni. What a great cruise.

 

Back on land, Versailles, in Little Havana is my favorite Cuban restaurant as well. Hope you had some Mojitos and Cuba Libres while in Miami -- there's no where on earth they make them better!!!

[chengkp75]

Cheng,

You may be the best one to address this to: I know on my smallish vessel if I steer 'Hard to Starboard' while underway, my semi-V-hull and it's chines and overall hull design allows it to heel to Starboard and I have no problem with stability as it smartly avoids an obstruction, floating debris etc. Of course, I have no Ballast Tanks and the boat's response is nearly immediate..it's G and M are never in a perilous state. QUESTION: Does a Cruisehip such as the CONCORDIA react to such a maneuvre in a contrary way?? That is, does it heel first to Port then rights itself or am I incorrect in that regard?

I ask only to make it more clear in my mind as to the state of the CONCORDIA just prior to impact as regards it's X and Y and Z axis and it's Inclinometer readings throughout the maneuver. It seems the location of the long gouge and where the Rock remained impaled in the Hull is so curiously high. At risk of repeating myself..these large vessels seem ungainly as they are designed. 4,000 people aboard vs a Load of Iron Ore demands careful consideration of such things. Regards, Locomotiveman Tom

 

Actually, due to the higher center of gravity of a cruise ship (I haven't seen your boat, but I would guess it's not 14 decks high:p), a cruise ship will tend to lean out from a turn, so a turn to starboard will result in heeling to port. Yes, the breach is relatively high on the hull, but this could be either due to the turn induced heel, or to a projection on the rock at that point. We'll probably never know, as that part of the rock is now torn off and imbedded in her side. Since the ship was doing above 5 knots right up until the rock, the stabilizers would have been out, and they would have attempted to lessen this heel. However, with the breach on the port side and the water entering there, this small initial heel would have started the tendency of the water to collect on the port side, increasing the heel, until environmental effects (wind) reversed it.

 

Most cruise ships with "straight line" propulsion (shafting and propellers, not pods) like the Concordia have "Becker" rudders. These rudders are designed to continue to provide steerage at speeds below that which normal rudders lose effectiveness (about 3 knots). This is an aid in docking. These rudders have a small "trim tab" on the trailing edge of the rudder, and the farther you place the rudder over, the more airfoil shape the rudder has, which actually produces "lift" moving the stern in the direction desired. A disadvantage of a Becker rudder is that, at high speed (16 knots when the Concordia turned) this can cause a dramatic turn rate, and an even more dramatic heel. If a cruise ship at full sea speed is put to hard over on the rudder, you can expect a 35-45* heel, and nearly every piece of crockery and glassware onboard will go flying. Been there, done that.

[chengkp75]

Has anyone heard of a proposed "plan B"? According to several recent news articles in Italy, Franco Porcellacchia, vice president of refits for Carnival Corporation unveiled an alternate plan to bring in the Dockwise Vanguard to tow Concordia to Turkey where it would be dismantled.

 

Apologies if this has already been discussed here.

 

http://www.ilsole24ore.com/art/impresa-e-territori/2013-05-27/foto-151958.shtml?uuid=AbtU3hzH

 

http://it.ibtimes.com/articles/49596/20130528/costa-concordia-crociera-naufragio-isola-del-giglio-vanguard-last-minute.htm

 

http://www.net1news.org/cronaca/arriva-vanguard-gigante-dei-mari-pu%C3%B2-recuperare-concordia.html

 

Actually, you are incorrect in one very important fact. The Dockwise Vanguard is a heavy lift ship, so she would not be "towing" the Concordia anywhere. Once the ship is floated, the Vanguard would sink itself and move under the Concordia, then deballast to lift the Concordia completely out of the water. From my perspective, this is a much safer, and environmentally more sound idea than towing her with the caissons attached. I haven't checked the stats on the Vanguard, but if she can accommodate the Concordia lenghtwise on her deck, this is a better support for a ship with compromised structural integrity.

[sidari]

Cheng .... Having looked again at the pictures which show the stabilizer out on the Port side and the tear begining below and to the rear of it, how is it do you think that the stabilizer was not torn off? le scole was said to have projected above the waterline so there is no way that the stabilizer could have ridden over it.

 

Would it not mean that 2/3rds of the ship would have past it by safely and the bow would have to be turning to starboard for the last 3rd of the ship to hit the rock ?

[chengkp75]

Cheng .... Having looked again at the pictures which show the stabilizer out on the Port side and the tear begining below and to the rear of it, how is it do you think that the stabilizer was not torn off? le scole was said to have projected above the waterline so there is no way that the stabilizer could have ridden over it.

 

Would it not mean that 2/3rds of the ship would have past it by safely and the bow would have to be turning to starboard for the last 3rd of the ship to hit the rock ?

 

Yeah, I looked at the parbuckling site today, and noted the stabilizer sticking out in one photo. With a ship underway in the ahead direction, the turning axis (the point around which the ship rotates) moves to 2/3 of the ship length FORWARD (so only 1/3 ship length back from bow). So as a ship turns, the stern will travel further out from the ship's trackline around a turn. I would think that the stabilizer probably just missed the rock, though I haven't looked at some of the studies of exact trackline that have been done.

[chengkp75]

Sidari;

 

Further to the above, if you plot the ship's trackline from GPS, and match the ship's heading at each data point, you can overlay a scale ship's hull, and you will find that the ship is normally not on the same heading as you would think based on the trackline. The stern will be kicked out further, and the heading at any point will be further to starboard than the direction of the trackline.

 

Maybe I've made it worse, rather than better:o

[Mike.Minh]

I haven't checked the stats on the Vanguard, but if she can accommodate the Concordia lenghtwise on her deck, this is a better support for a ship with compromised structural integrity.

 

Deck length of the Dockwise Vanguard is 275 m, CC overall length is 290 m. Just 15 m overhanging sounds ok. Max width of the Dockwise Vanguard can take is 65 m, CC itself is 35 m. This should leave enough space for the caissons.

 

Capabilities of the Dockwise Vanguard in this video:

[sidari]

It sure would be interesting if they had to move to the Vanguard in order to take the Concordia away.

[sidari]

Cheng ... to me it seems the stabilizer missed Le Scole by luck more than anything else, at a guess and on my part it is a guess that the stabilizer would be about 5 to 6 metres below the sea so in reality the Fin should have been torn off.

 

Unless of course the 2/3rds of the ship had actually passed Le Scole heading for Giglio as or before the turn was made ?

[chengkp75]

It sure would be interesting if they had to move to the Vanguard in order to take the Concordia away.

 

Costa may be looking at "dry towing" (term used for heavy lift moves) to Turkey as the ship breaking cost is so much less that it would cover the dry tow cost.

They probably have permits to move the ship with just the caissons attached for only a short distance (to the nearest Italian shipyard), but class and the Italian Coast Guard would almost certainly look for a dry tow method to move her any significant distance. If you remember, back in the 90's, the USN had a DE run over a mine while escorting tankers into Kuwait, and she was nearly broken in two. The local yard in the Persian Gulf strapped her together, and they dry towed her back to Maine for permanent repairs.

 

Heavy lift operations are really something to watch. I still don't understand the stability that these ships have when they pick up a huge offshore drilling rig that towers 200-300 feet above the deck, and I took Naval Architecture in college!

[chengkp75]

Cheng ... to me it seems the stabilizer missed Le Scole by luck more than anything else, at a guess and on my part it is a guess that the stabilizer would be about 5 to 6 metres below the sea so in reality the Fin should have been torn off.

 

Unless of course the 2/3rds of the ship had actually passed Le Scole heading for Giglio as or before the turn was made ?

 

Yes, it was luck. I've found a youtube of the trackline (not real sure of the accuracy) that shows how the bow missed the rock, but the stern swings out from the track line, and catches the rock.

 

The stabilizers are usually designed to retract at speeds below 5 knots, as it is assumed you are docking at that point, and don't need the stabilizer. It is done automatically, as several Captains forgot to retract them, and then tore them off against the dock. The Norwegian Sky/Pride of Aloha had two sets of fins, and we sailed for 2 years with only 3 out of 4 fins because one had been crushed against a dock.

 

[watertheodds]

Wow, the information and expertise you guys are able to bring to this thread is so helpful in understanding not only the Concordia tragedy but cruise ships in general. Thank you!

 

Keep up the info and meanwhile I am escaping the tornado alley of Oklahoma today via SWA (not a tornado) to Seattle for an Alaskan cruise! I don't think I have ever looked forward to a vacation as much as this one. My son and his beautiful family live in Moore and we are just frazzled from worry over their safety the last week or so.

[clive and anne]

What bappears to be another part of the platform is just arriving on site this morning. It is being towed on a barge but is a little too far away to see any detail.

[CTH]

What bappears to be another part of the platform is just arriving on site this morning. It is being towed on a barge but is a little too far away to see any detail.

I think it's Platform no.2 arriving, as they are still drilling the holes for the legs for the final Platform no.3., unless of course all the drilling is now complete?

 

Hopefully they will take a few photos (assuming they drop it down into position today) & then add them to the weekly report due out in the morning, & also hopefully an update @ The Parbuckling Project.

[Tonka's Skipper]

Costa may be looking at "dry towing" (term used for heavy lift moves) to Turkey as the ship breaking cost is so much less that it would cover the dry tow cost.

They probably have permits to move the ship with just the caissons attached for only a short distance (to the nearest Italian shipyard), but class and the Italian Coast Guard would almost certainly look for a dry tow method to move her any significant distance. If you remember, back in the 90's, the USN had a DE run over a mine while escorting tankers into Kuwait, and she was nearly broken in two. The local yard in the Persian Gulf strapped her together, and they dry towed her back to Maine for permanent repairs.

 

Heavy lift operations are really something to watch. I still don't understand the stability that these ships have when they pick up a huge offshore drilling rig that towers 200-300 feet above the deck, and I took Naval Architecture in college!

 

 

 

Granted the safety and logistics would make it a good choice if they change the minds about using a Italian yard.........

 

 

I am not sure there is any barge or heavy lift vessel able to handle the size and tonnage of the Concordia.

 

Even a floating dock able to have the lift for Concordia, would not be the safest as sea with that size and tonnage on it.

 

AKK

[Ken711]

I think it's Platform no.2 arriving, as they are still drilling the holes for the legs for the final Platform no.3., unless of course all the drilling is now complete?

 

Hopefully they will take a few photos (assuming they drop it down into position today) & then add them to the weekly report due out in the morning, & also hopefully an update @ The Parbuckling Project.

 

Yes, I'd say it's platform 2.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Ken711

[Ken711]

It appears as if the Micoperi 30 crane is preparing to lift the platform (2?) off of the transport barge.

[chengkp75]

Granted the safety and logistics would make it a good choice if they change the minds about using a Italian yard.........

 

 

I am not sure there is any barge or heavy lift vessel able to handle the size and tonnage of the Concordia.

 

Even a floating dock able to have the lift for Concordia' date=' would not be the safest as sea with that size and tonnage on it.

 

AKK[/quote']

 

Yeah, looking at the lift tonnage of the Vanguard, it wouldn't lift the Concordia and the caissons, unless they cropped off some upper decks, etc. They may be looking at going to an Italian yard to strip off the boat davits, water slides, and the top two decks, pump out the hull to oil recovery barges, cut the caissons off, and then use the Vanguard to take it to a ship breaker. I don't know if Italy actually has yard facilities set up for ship breaking.

 

Actually, the Vanguard can lift 117,000mt, and the Concordia is 114,000GT, so it is designed for lifting this amount, and they routinely lift semi-submersible drilling vessels that are over 300 feet high, and carry them across the Atlantic and Pacific, so a short haul to Turkey would be a very safe option.

[Tonka's Skipper]

Yeah, looking at the lift tonnage of the Vanguard, it wouldn't lift the Concordia and the caissons, unless they cropped off some upper decks, etc. They may be looking at going to an Italian yard to strip off the boat davits, water slides, and the top two decks, pump out the hull to oil recovery barges, cut the caissons off, and then use the Vanguard to take it to a ship breaker. I don't know if Italy actually has yard facilities set up for ship breaking.

 

Actually, the Vanguard can lift 117,000mt, and the Concordia is 114,000GT, so it is designed for lifting this amount, and they routinely lift semi-submersible drilling vessels that are over 300 feet high, and carry them across the Atlantic and Pacific, so a short haul to Turkey would be a very safe option.

 

Dam that is one big heavy lift. I had not read about her...........she could do the job. The cutting down would of course help with the lift.

 

The last I read is they the Italians are looking at almost building a yard to handle the scrapping. That would not be a inexpensive endeavor.

 

AKK

[Ken711]

Dam that is one big heavy lift. I had not read about her...........she could do the job. The cutting down would of course help with the lift.

 

The last I read is they the Italians are looking at almost building a yard to handle the scrapping. That would not be a inexpensive endeavor.

 

AKK

 

I thought I read where Italy wants the scrapping to occur in their shipyards to help with the employment that project would bring.

[swedish weave]

I thought I read where Italy wants the scrapping to occur in their shipyards to help with the employment that project would bring.

 

Sounds like that would give CCL (or Costa) a pretty strong position with the Italian legal system in settling the fines and claims. One hand washes the other!!

Edited June 3, 2013 by swedish weave