Carnival is Being VERY Misleading with Sunshine

[eroller]

I don't see it as greed at all.

Every business needs to make a profit...I applaud them for wanting to make a profit, it's the way they are doing it that doesn't agree with me...I think it's just poor decision making.

As far as it biting them in the ass...only time will tell.

 

I never said I don't agree with companies making a profit, but when you take out lounges, cram in more cabins and people on an already crowded ship I see that as corporate greed. There is a way this refurbishment could have been accomplished to increase revenue and enhance the customer experience. The way I see it is that the Carnival bean counters as usual got their way and screw the customer. With this philosophy I would just assume give another cruise line my business.

 

Ernie

[glrounds]

Exactly. Lol. Maybe CCL is trying to have an intervention with us... Mam, it is time to move you up a rung in the CCL company. Move along and don't make any fuss....

 

Bahahahaha . . . hilarious.:D

 

[glrounds]

I never said I don't agree with companies making a profit, but when you take out lounges, cram in more cabins and people on an already crowded ship I see that as corporate greed. There is a way this refurbishment could have been accomplished to increase revenue and enhance the customer experience. The way I see it is that the Carnival bean counters as usual got their way and screw the customer. With this philosophy I would just assume give another cruise line my business.

 

Ernie

 

Ernie, greed is a human emotion. Corporations can't be greedy. They can only make errors in their business judgement. The limit to what profit a company can make is ruled by the age old axiom "whatever the market will bear". When a corporation exceeds that limit, customers like you and I do just exactly what you indicated and that's the way its supposed to happen.:D

 

Corporations don't compete . . . MANAGEMENTS compete.

 

[nybumpkin]

Maybe Carnival is the same and it is all of us getting older and wiser.

 

Take this brief quiz to analyze:

 

1) Do you find yourself complaining about music these days?

 

Hate my sons' music. There's hope for the youngest, though - he likes 60s and 70s (he's only 12). Especially Lynyrd Skynyrd.:D

2) Do you find yourself complaining about the things young people wear?

 

Absolutely. They don't even have to be revealing outfits - I'm tired of 11 YOs wearing UGG boots.

 

3) Do you have difficulty understanding new technology such as the newest phones, programming your remote, etc.?

(like your father or grandfather's blinking vcr?)

 

DH describes me as a Luddite. I can't even change channels on the TV now.:rolleyes:

 

4) Do doctors and teachers seem really young to you now?

 

Here's where I avoid the HAL result. I'm 52 and my doctors are all older than I am. Maybe that's not such a good thing, though....

 

5) Do you have the inexplicable urge to yell at kids to get off of your grass?

 

Nope. But then, I live in the middle of nowhere and the only kids walking on our grass are our next-door neighbors' kids coming over to see our kids.

If you answer 'yes' to 1-2 of these questions, please remain in the Carnival line.

 

If you answer 'yes' to 3-4 of these questions, please proceed to the Princess dock.

 

If you answer 'yes' to all 5, please proceed to the HAL dock.

So, in short, I guess I'm destined for Princess....:p

[eroller]

Ernie, greed is a human emotion. Corporations can't be greedy. They can only make errors in their business judgement. The limit to what profit a company can make is ruled by the age old axiom "whatever the market will bear". When a corporation exceeds that limit, customers like you and I do just exactly what you indicated and that's the way its supposed to happen.:D

 

Corporations don't compete . . . MANAGEMENTS compete.

 

 

Purely semantics. Corporations are run by management teams that absolutely can become greedy. I'm sure you have heard the expression "corporate greed". It's alive and well in America. Excessive greed has been the demise of many corporations. While I don't wish this for Carnival I wouldn't mind a little wake up call sent their way so perhaps they could better balance their focus. As you say, the market will determine future actions. Time will tell.

 

Ernie

[glrounds]

Purely semantics. Corporations are run by management teams that absolutely can become greedy. I'm sure you have heard the expression "corporate greed". It's alive and well in America. Excessive greed has been the demise of many corporations. While I don't wish this for Carnival I wouldn't mind a little wake up call sent their way so perhaps they could better balance their focus. As you say, the market will determine future actions. Time will tell.

 

Ernie

 

Semantics or not. GREED is MAXIMIZING profits to a corporation. If the client gets his money's worth he comes back. If he doesn't he goes elsewhere. Walking that thin line is marketing. Its management's job to get the most money they can from you and keep you coming back. In the case of Carnival, a very good example is the PLATINUM program. If Carnival can get you to cruise with them instead of RCI or NCL and all they have to do is give you a bunch of perks (most of which cost them NOTHING), then they've done their job in that area. This same very serious "game" is played with cabin pricing, drink pricing, food selection, entertainment quality, itinerary selection, excursion pricing, and on and on.

 

My point was that MAKING AS MUCH MONEY AS POSSIBLE WHILE SPENDING AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE is what Corporations do. There is no MORALITY involved as greed implies. That's just part of the corporate "business plan". It is not an ALTRUISTS. It does not exist for YOUR SAKE. It exists because the management running it takes in more than it spends. If and when they fail to do that, either they are gone or the corporation is gone. (provided some fool doesn't prop them up with taxpayer's funds):rolleyes:

 

Management works for and is ONLY concerned with pleasing the SHAREHOLDERS. The shareholders ALONE have the power and ability to REPLACE THEM.

 

When you buy a product because they GIVE 1%, 5%, 10% to some cause like cancer, the environment, the Olympics, or homelss people it is purely because the management has determined that the added PROFIT from such an activity. will offset the COST of these donations, they hope. No matter how sweetly they word it, Ernie, there motivation is for the benefit of the Corporation. But, if you're going to insist on calling it GREED, then I'll have to quote Gecko, "Greed is good". :D

 

And "corporate greed" is a collectivist's invention.

 

 

[densol]

OP thank you for this post. I had no idea the " new" Sunshine was the "old" Destiny !! As I was confused and could find nothing on the Carnival website setting out it was a revamped ship - then it must be somewhat misleading.

[Almost Packed]

I disagree. You knew it was a retro fit. They

aren't trying to hide it. What's the big deal? who gives a rats azzzz.

 

i do!

 

i thought it was a new ship.

 

and by the looks of this thread, a few people do too.

[eroller]

Semantics or not. GREED is MAXIMIZING profits to a corporation. If the client gets his money's worth he comes back. If he doesn't he goes elsewhere. Walking that thin line is marketing. Its management's job to get the most money they can from you and keep you coming back. In the case of Carnival, a very good example is the PLATINUM program. If Carnival can get you to cruise with them instead of RCI or NCL and all they have to do is give you a bunch of perks (most of which cost them NOTHING), then they've done their job in that area. This same very serious "game" is played with cabin pricing, drink pricing, food selection, entertainment quality, itinerary selection, excursion pricing, and on and on.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes I realize all this and do understand the concept of simple economics in a capitalist society, but my point is simply that this refurbishment is so blatantly focused on increasing revenue that it crosses the line of good business sense. Increased revenues to the point of pure greed appears to be the primary focus here. I may be proven wrong and if so than Carnival customers deserve everything coming to them.

 

All corporations are not created equal. When I look at the recent major refurbishments of Royal Caribbean and Celebrity I see a much more balanced approach of increasing revenue and enhancing the customer experience. Yes cabins are added but public space is not sacrificed but enhanced. This balanced approach is what I admire and why they will receive my $$ over Carnival. Yes and I realize that Carnival is more profitable than Royal Caribbean. Does that make them better IMO? Absolutely not. I don't choose a cruise line based on their profit margin nor do I invest in cruise line stocks. There are far better ways to invest my money.

 

As for Gecko, while interesting not someone I admire. The people I look up to have slightly more ethics.

 

Ernie

[glrounds]

Yes I realize all this and do understand the concept of simple economics in a capitalist society, but my point is simply that this refurbishment is so blatantly focused on increasing revenue that it crosses the line of good business sense. Increased revenues to the point of pure greed appears to be the primary focus here. I may be proven wrong and if so than Carnival customers deserve everything coming to them.

 

All corporations are not created equal. When I look at the recent major refurbishments of Royal Caribbean and Celebrity I see a much more balanced approach of increasing revenue and enhancing the customer experience. Yes cabins are added but public space is not sacrificed but enhanced. This balanced approach is what I admire and why they will receive my $$ over Carnival. Yes and I realize that Carnival is more profitable than Royal Caribbean. Does that make them better IMO? Absolutely not. I don't choose a cruise line based on their profit margin nor do I invest in cruise line stocks. There are far better ways to invest my money.

 

As for Gecko, while interesting not someone I admire. The people I look up to have slightly more ethics.

 

Ernie

 

I agree with you completely, Ernie.

 

I'm sorry if I came off "preaching" to you. I'm such an advocate of FREE MARKET CAPITALISM (which has been systematically weakened since 1915), I sometimes get carried away, I suppose.

 

You classify it as greed, I call it marketing. I think it was stupid "marketing" to call this refurb a NEW SHIP. However, as others have said, this will probably have ZERO effect on the "newbies". They will cruise this ship and marvel how beautiful this "new" ship is, and that will be that. I think this decision will eventually comeback and bite those that are responsible for this marketing move and many other changes in Carnival's policies, squarely in the ass. Carnival is slowly changing from the wonderful elegant cruise line it used to be and only us "oldies" can recognize that. :(

 

LIMITED government . . . INDIVIDUAL freedom . . . FREE markets :)

 

[gone_cruisin]

limited government . . . individual freedom . . . free markets :)

 

 

 

amen!

[cdamion]

OP thank you for this post. I had no idea the " new" Sunshine was the "old" Destiny !! As I was confused and could find nothing on the Carnival website setting out it was a revamped ship - then it must be somewhat misleading.

 

No problem.

 

I just didn't want people thinking it is a newbuild.

 

I don't get why Carnival just doesn't just say that it is the single most massive rebuild of a ship in the company's history, which is the truth.

 

They could still generate a lot of excitement with newbies and "oldies' alike, rather than seeming a bit deceptive about it.

[WinnipegCruiser]

I still haven't seen any thoughts on how CCL can add 600 passengers and meet the demands of the dining room and entertainment.

 

Well, think about this. Carnival has a whole bunch of smart people who have brought the company to this point. You may not realize but they have been pretty successful.

 

I was just on the Destiny for 14 days in February. I did not experience huge lines or even crowds. The Dining room did not seem crowded, or stressed.

 

They are adding restaurants and more tables to the lido buffet. They are adding quite a bit of sq feet of deck space, and using existing space better.

 

I am sure they didn't just throw these plans together on the back of a napkin. People who are experienced and educated in all kinds of disciplines related to cruise ship design have worked for a long time to make these plans.

 

I for one am impressed on how they will update this already great ship and only spend $150 million.

[Kimmie36]

With all the changes & upgrades there was no need to change the name!

[cdamion]

Well, think about this. Carnival has a whole bunch of smart people who have brought the company to this point. You may not realize but they have been pretty successful.

 

I was just on the Destiny for 14 days in February. I did not experience huge lines or even crowds. The Dining room did not seem crowded, or stressed.

 

They are adding restaurants and more tables to the lido buffet. They are adding quite a bit of sq feet of deck space, and using existing space better.

 

I am sure they didn't just throw these plans together on the back of a napkin. People who are experienced and educated in all kinds of disciplines related to cruise ship design have worked for a long time to make these plans.

 

I for one am impressed on how they will update this already great ship and only spend $150 million.

 

I agree and disagree with your points:

 

$150 million for such a massive upgrade: Great!!!

 

Their plans: they are attempting to push the envelope with packing customers on, and I personally think they have gone too far.

 

Lido buffet tables: Not necessarily. They are removing the upstairs seating at the Lido buffet and the space behind it is going to be other dining venues and the new bar, so unless those areas share seating with the buffet (which they quite possibly may) there really isn't much additional seating.

 

Deck space: Not that much public deck space is being added. You lose the bottom of the showroom to cabins, you lose the aft lounge area to cabins. The waterslide/kids club areas are converted to cabins. The new added deck is going to mostly be cabins.

 

Deck space: smarter use - absolutely agree - it looks like the deck plan is going to seriously improve on the passenger flow of all Destiny-class based ships.

 

MDR: I too did not notice any problem with crowding in the MDR. However, the buffet was a different story. Horrible lines there. Also, I could never get away from the crowd on board. Still had a blast and enjoyed the cruise though.

 

I really really hope that I am wrong about the crowding and that the folks at Carnival do an amazing job at packing in all those extra passengers, but distribute them throughout the ship so it doesn't feel crowded. I am highly skeptical about it at this point though.

 

If I am wrong, I will gladly sail her (I already know exactly which itinerary too) and you can come back and say "I told you so."

[ugh07]

Well, think about this. Carnival has a whole bunch of smart people who have brought the company to this point. You may not realize but they have been pretty successful.

 

prior performance is no guarantee of future results, that aside, using the albeit flawed metrics that the powers that be use to measure passenger space, this will be the most crowded ship in carnivals fleet.

 

I was on the destiny in 1999 and it was unbearably crowded, I can't imagine what the sunshine will be like.

[WinnipegCruiser]

prior performance is no guarantee of future results, that aside, using the albeit flawed metrics that the powers that be use to measure passenger space, this will be the most crowded ship in carnivals fleet.

 

I was on the destiny in 1999 and it was unbearably crowded, I can't imagine what the sunshine will be like.

 

I don't think it will be "the most crowded ship in carnivals fleet". You don't really know all the facts.

 

Here are some fact I do know:

 

In 1999 embarkation and debarkation was a nightmare compared to today. So many things have changed since 1999. The fact is that Carnival (and most cruise companies) have become much more efficient at serving their passengers.

 

I believe that in 1999 the Destiny was the largest passenger cruise ship in the world. She certainly was in 1996. I can imagine she did seem crowded. However today, with all the changes and additions, she uses her space much more efficiently.

[RozWazowski]

I am not an experienced cruiser...but I do love cruise critic

 

Just glancing at the site earlier today, I thought this was a new ship. I didn't know it was a revamp with a name change until I saw this thread. It will be a very pretty ship when they are done.

 

Personally, it doesn't bother me - I think it's smart to makeover a ship vs buy a new one. Hopefully, any money saved will be passed on to the customer - I'd rather have that over a brand new ship. However, I wish they had left the name the same. Put her in dry dock and maker her pretty and reintroduce her ... don't put her in the witness protection program ;)

[ugh07]

I don't think it will be "the most crowded ship in carnivals fleet". You don't really know all the facts.

 

Here are some fact I do know:

 

In 1999 embarkation and debarkation was a nightmare compared to today. So many things have changed since 1999. The fact is that Carnival (and most cruise companies) have become much more efficient at serving their passengers.

 

I believe that in 1999 the Destiny was the largest passenger cruise ship in the world. She certainly was in 1996. I can imagine she did seem crowded. However today, with all the changes and additions, she uses her space much more efficiently.

 

 

She's one of the most crowded now using The typical "passenger space ratio". They are adding more cabins without adding size to the ship, so that ratio will drop, making it carnivals most crowded. It's going to hold the same amount of pax as splendor but is smaller, scary stuff.

 

I do agree that smart design can overcome some of that but by the numbers it will be a very crowded ship

[cdamion]

I don't think it will be "the most crowded ship in carnivals fleet". You don't really know all the facts.

 

Here are some fact I do know:

 

In 1999 embarkation and debarkation was a nightmare compared to today. So many things have changed since 1999. The fact is that Carnival (and most cruise companies) have become much more efficient at serving their passengers.

 

I believe that in 1999 the Destiny was the largest passenger cruise ship in the world. She certainly was in 1996. I can imagine she did seem crowded. However today, with all the changes and additions, she uses her space much more efficiently.

 

Don't worry. Reinforcements are coming to back you up soon enough as soon as Magic gets back tomorrow, the bloggers and other strong Carnival supporters will be on here to tell those of us that disagree with you how horribly wrong and uninformed we are.;)

 

For the record, I hope you are right and I am wrong.

[Maxiecat3]

She's one of the most crowded now using The typical "passenger space ratio". They are adding more cabins without adding size to the ship, so that ratio will drop, making it carnivals most crowded. It's going to hold the same amount of pax as splendor but is smaller, scary stuff.

 

I do agree that smart design can overcome some of that but by the numbers it will be a very crowded ship

 

Actually, she isn't. There are only 4 ships that have a better ratio than the Destiny (Spirit class). Her ratio is at 38.3, still not great but much better than most of the Carnival ships. Put in perspective, to add that many passengers and maintain the same ratio, they will have to add about 14,000 GRT. To keep from dropping to the most crowded ship they will have to add at least 2,000 GRT. It will probably fall somewhere in between those 2 numbers.

 

Gregg

[overeasy]

Some folks might book a ship just because it's new, they would be disappointed when they find out it's just refurbished. Also some people are a little superstitious and would not want to be on a ship that's been renamed. I have one boat with a name and I would not rename it (yes - "it" not "her") without at least some sort of ceremony. Sounds silly but I don't want to tempt fate.

[ugh07]

Actually, she isn't. There are only 4 ships that have a better ratio than the Destiny (Spirit class). Her ratio is at 38.3, still not great but much better than most of the Carnival ships. Put in perspective, to add that many passengers and maintain the same ratio, they will have to add about 14,000 GRT. To keep from dropping to the most crowded ship they will have to add at least 2,000 GRT. It will probably fall somewhere in between those 2 numbers.

 

Gregg

 

You are counting on double occupancy, whatever. As I said before its a flawed measuring system anyway, just the fact that they will take away public space add cabins and somehow mess with the numbers to prove its roomier is evidence of that. In reality Destiny is a very crowded ship and sunshine will be worse. That's what carnival builds now though, look at the dream class. They need to start the next build with a clean sheet of paper.

[dclark]

I don't think it will be "the most crowded ship in carnivals fleet". You don't really know all the facts.

 

Here are some fact I do know:

 

In 1999 embarkation and debarkation was a nightmare compared to today. So many things have changed since 1999. The fact is that Carnival (and most cruise companies) have become much more efficient at serving their passengers.

 

I believe that in 1999 the Destiny was the largest passenger cruise ship in the world. She certainly was in 1996. I can imagine she did seem crowded. However today, with all the changes and additions, she uses her space much more efficiently.

 

Here are the real facts:

1) First, the Destiny was NOT the largest ship in the world in '99, that honor (albeit short lived) went to the Grand Princess, launched min '98.

Second, I want you to imagine how crowded the pool deck was back when you were on it. Now, picture that same deck with an extra 600 people looking for a lounge chair. Picture those 600 extra people in front of you in line for the water slide, imagine them all in the two little pools.

When you talk about "changes and additions", most of the changes involve taking away public areas and most of the "additions" are additional cabins for the extra people. It is very simple- taking away public space and adding 600 extra people will make for a very crowded ship. No, it won't just feel crowded, it will be very crowded.

[ugh07]

, I want you to imagine how crowded the pool deck was back when you were on it. Now, picture that same deck with an extra 600 people looking for a lounge chair..

 

This is exactly what went through my mind, that pool deck in 99 was shockingly crowded, I can't believe they are adding that many more passengers